"Poor people don't pay taxes"

Originally posted by dbates
EDIT: Trust me. I've made everything from $800 to $75K annually. If you don't make over $30K you don't have to pay federal income tax.
[edit on 2-3-2008 by dbates]

Dbates, I don't know where you got your information, but it is incorrect. For many years I made under $30,000 and I ALWAYS had to pay federal taxes.

And no, I didn't get any of it back either. Nor was I eligible for earned income tax credits.

reply to post by Rockpuck

.. now we have illegal programs that suck the middle man dry to give to the little lazy ignorant low end of society because they couldn't get off their couch and stop popping out offspring to get a damn job.

What a horrible attitude! Explain then what is the downfall of someone who does work, is educated, no children, and still can't find a job, or is forced to work a low income job? There are many college grads and students now who spend 4+ years on their education to wind up working at McDonalds due to job availability.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Most people with low incomes do not qualify. If you have children you qualify for a massive earned income credit, even if you only work a week out of a year! But if you are working and single, you get screwed. The most EIC for that group is around 300 this year, only if you made under 11 thousand.

reply to post by forestlady

Are you referring to the FICA tax or the federal income tax? I'm just speaking of federal income tax. You can't get around paying the FICA portion that comes out of your wages.

I think the difference between my experience and yours is that I've nearly always had at least one dependant. I suppose if your single you might have to pay a few hundred dollars, but I doubt you'll pay much more than that if you're pulling in under $20,000 annually. Anyone who can claim more than one dependant and who uses EIC can attest that you you nearly always get most if not all of your income tax garnisments back at the end of the year. It pays to check into every single deduction possible.

Forty-four million tax returns filed in 2005 will rightly demand the return of every dollar or more that is being withheld from their paychecks during 2004, according to the Tax Foundation.

in addition to the 44 million who will have no income tax liability, there are another 14 million who will earn income, but will not earn enough to pay taxes, bringing the total number of Americans not paying taxes to 58 million, and Moody stresses that this is still an underestimate.

www.nfib.com...

So, if there are 58 million people who do not pay taxes on their income, obviously it's very possible (As I have stated) to avoid paying federal income tax if you are very poor. It's not a myth that the poor pay little if any federal income tax. It's just the way things work. Of course state, local, and FICA taxes still apply but that's a completly different subject.

reply to post by jackinthebox



Most members of my family are hard working, responsible individuals who make a nice living for themselves and put back money for the future. Then, like everyone else here, there are relatives who don't work, or don't manage their money right, and are always broke, or are on Welfare or Gov assistance programs, etc. etc. Should I be responsible for them? I own my own business, and do very well for myself. It took a lot of hard work and sacrifice to get where I am today. I will not be dependent on the Gov to support me when I am too old to work. So, why should I be responsible for the "General Welfare of the People" when they don't take the responsibility to help themselves? My wife worked in the State Office system here for 2 years, and seen this situation first hand. I have cousins who are able to work, who have the means to work, but who don't work because they know the Gov will send them a check every month. I understand some people may not be able to work, I agree there should be help for these people, but there are millions who simply do not want to help themselves because they know the Gov will provide for them.My wife has came home and told me stories where individuals came right out and told her" Why should I work and earn $400 a week when I can sit at home anc collect $900 a month for free?" I live in Louisiana, and the situation here is pathetic, there are jobs to be had, but people are too lazy to work them. There are programs here that will help you find a job, help you get a home, and help educate you about managing your money, getting further FREE education to improve your familys quality of life and get off Welfare. But people don't want to because that would require they get out of bed before noon. So, I don't agree with you, I don't think I should be responsible for these types of people. I live in one of the worst states of poverty in the US, I believe we are second only to Mississippi, and I can tell you from experience that most poor people are poor for a reason, and they have themselves to blame for it.

One of my jobs my base salary was $41,000 a year. Almost every year I got most if not all of that back, unless I had huge overtime which sometimes happened. I worked that job for three years, and two of them I got everything back, one of them I paid a few hundred dollars at the end of the year. There are a lot of deductions out there to help people out, they don't advertise them, but they are there.

And another thing, as far as taxes go. I make six figures a year, and always end up paying in. My sister and her husband make less than 50k together, but always get $5000-$6000 back every year. I used to prepare taxes in the afternoons for a local H&R Block when I was starting my business for extra money, and I can tell you more people in the $25-$50k range get back a large chunk of money than someone who makes more. It is easier for them to "zero out" their taxable income, therefore getting back every dollar they paid in.
But, considering my sister and brother-in-law make less than $50k, a sum of $5-$6k is a HUGE amount of money to them. Do you think they listen to me when I suggest they use it to pay off their bills, or put it in a retirement account, or help them get a home and stop throwing their money away on rent? No, they usually use it to get a new SUV, or "spinner rims", or go to the Casino and gamble it away, or some other irresponsible act where 2 weeks later, it is all gone and they have, at the least, nothing to show for it, and more typically, another car note added to the growing stack of bills they can barely pay for now. This is why the status rarely changes for the "poor" and "middle class", it's mainly from their own acts.

Originally posted by space cadet
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

.. now we have illegal programs that suck the middle man dry to give to the little lazy ignorant low end of society because they couldn't get off their couch and stop popping out offspring to get a damn job.

What a horrible attitude! Explain then what is the downfall of someone who does work, is educated, no children, and still can't find a job, or is forced to work a low income job? There are many college grads and students now who spend 4+ years on their education to wind up working at McDonalds due to job availability.

If they are educated, Then why are they staying in areas where there are no jobs? Move to an area where there are jobs.

My wife's brother will sit here and tell you he can't find a job. He has a 4 year degree. He sat around for 2 months while his mom works and paid his bills and gave his spending money. He is 28 years old. After watching her almost have a nervous breakdown stretching her finances to pay for his bills, I took his resume, got online and had him a job interview lined up the next day. He went and got the job, starting at $625 a week, base salary with incentives and benefits. Did he ever say "Thanks"? No. Because he doesn't want to work. He knows he can sit at home and sleep until noon and his Mom will pay his car note and give him money to go drinking on.

BTW, he lost the job after a month. For not showing up, at 9am every day, due to oversleeping.

[edit on 3-3-2008 by theQuest]

I have been unemployed since Summer, and homeless since Halloween. (This is not my computer I use.) I have been seriously considering knocking up my girlfriend for a place to live. The only reason I won't, is because I don't want to perpetuate the cycle of ignorance. I don't want my child growing up in a hopeless situation. My situation.


[edit on 3/2/0808 by jackinthebox]

Then you are a poster child for the argument. Instead of being on this damn website, where you are not going to find a job, you should be on Monster.Com or out putting in applications. You have been posting so much on Tax laws, go to H&R block and get a job filing taxes, this is peak season, they are always hiring. Going down the street and talking to every business owner until you find a job. Although I don't agree with a lot of what you say on here, I will agree you seem to be an intelligent person. So why are you always on this website posting when you could be spending that time seeking gainful employment and providing a means to keep your child from "growing up in a hopeless situation" that you mentioned above? Don't look now, but you are falling into the trend of what is wrong with the system now! Do yourself a favor, and reply to this tonight after you exhausted yourself today knocking on doors seeking employment.

reply to post by theQuest


Jesus H. Christ, I'm appalled at the ignorance I see here. Let me tell you my story, which you will no doubt scoff at.

My father was a child molester. I have PTSD as a result. I also have epilepsy. Nevertheless, I worked my ENTIRE LIFE. I not only worked, but I made a lot of money when I worked. Why? Because I made it my business to get ahead. However, because of my disabilities, work was very intermittent and my savings were depleted during the times I was unable to work.

I took a job that was below my skill level and accustomed pay because I was unemployed and wanted to work. At this job, my employer refused to follow the ADA and accomodate my disability so I could work. I was abused on the job by my supervisor, which was verified because I wan't the only person that was abused - it was endemic in the workplace. I got very sick and ended up leaving my job because my employer refused to transfer me to another department. I applied for Unemployment because I couldn't work my prior job due to my illness with the full intention of finding a job elsewhere. They denied my unemployment because my former employer didn't want to pay for it. I got a lot sicker. I went to the unemployment office - pretty much too sick to function - and they refused to give me any kind of assistance whatsoever and said that I needed to work. I went to a doctor who didn't believe anyone could be disabled and they submitted paperwork that I needed to work a job at reduced capacity. They don't actually help you FIND one of these jobs, they just use it as a means of denying all assistance. Because of the stress of the situation, I got very, very sick and ended up in the hospital four times in two months. I was in the hospital more than I was out.

After having worked for more than 25 years making good money, I was able to get SSDI. Now, even though the money I'm getting from the system is money I paid in, I get attacked on every side because I'm not working and I'm living off the government.

Consider this - the problems in the system itself are what made my illness so bad that I couldn't work. The problem is that guys like you are so gung ho on beating up on anyone who isn't "working" that it creates enormous obstacles. But do you run out and say corporations should accomodate disabilities so people can work, which is what you're demanding? No! Guys like you say that companies should be able to do whatever they want - including discrimination and actions that injure their employees. A person who is disabled has to come up with their own plan to make money despite their disability - which in many cases simply isn't possible without accommodation on the job. To be blunt, you flat out don't care what kind of problems OTHER people have that prevent them from working as long as you get yours and you don't have to help anyone except yourself.

Before you run around feeling all self righteous - YOU try to find a job when you're seriously ill.

WRT charities, frankly, I'd rather not depend on the "charity" of guys like you.

If you will take the time to read, you will see that I stated the people who DONT WANT to work are the problems. I do understand there are individuals like yourself who are willing to work, and who have worked in the past, and have health-related issues that prohibit or severely limit their capacity to do so. Yes, I agree you do need assistance in aquiring a job that you are capable of performing. YOU ONLY STRENGTHENED MY POINT: You have health issues that prohibit you from performing certain types of work, however you are seeking help to aquire a job that you are capable of and WILLING to perform. My stance was there are individuals that are NOT limited like yourself, who are perfectly able to perform the jobs, but do not have the willingness to do so. Those same people clogging up the system are why you cannot get the assistance you need to aquire employment. I commend you on your willingness to work, if more individuals had your work ethic the world would be a better place.

Originally posted by dbates
I think the difference between my experience and yours is that I've nearly always had at least one dependant. I suppose if your single you might have to pay a few hundred dollars, but I doubt you'll pay much more than that if you're pulling in under $20,000 annually. Anyone who can claim more than one dependant and who uses EIC can attest that you you nearly always get most if not all of your income tax garnisments back at the end of the year. It pays to check into every single deduction possible.

I sent my taxes off to the state and the feds every year. It was always about $400 between the two, that I had to pay. I never had children and I was single; also always rented. The govt pays you alot of money for having even just one child. But single people can't claim EIC. I always ended up paying, never getting anything back. And $400 is alot for a person who isn't making enough money to cover living expenses.

See what I'm saying?

reply to post by theQuest


And you still don't get it. Because of the very attitude you express, I've lost more than half of the capacity I previously had. My PTSD is much, much worse. That not only affects my ability to work, but it affects my everyday life. I can no longer do the things that you take for granted. I struggled before, but now it's impossible.

The attitude - the freaking "I don't give a crap as long as you WORK" can be very, very destructive for someone like me.

I'll give you an example. A couple of months ago, I decided I might be able to write and work around my disabilities. I wrote some things and sent them out for publication. My neighbor found out about it (who knows how, because I didn't tell him or anyone else) and he stomped over to my house and DEMANDED that I make a living for myself NOW - that I work far more hours than I actually could - all because he despises the idea that I'm getting SSDI and he thinks I should automagically be able to do things just because he says so. The end result of that is that I became sick and couldn't continue with the work I was trying to do. My nascent attempt was killed before it ever got off the ground.

I live in a town where that kind of attitude is rampant, where people come to my house and SCREAM at me because I'm disabled, but when I went to vocational rehab to try to get some help so I could go back to work, they said I was too sick and they couldn't do anything to help me.

If this is happening to me, it's happening to others also. You need to rethink your attitude and ask yourself whether or not there are barriers to work that you're not aware of that are preventing those people you so despise from getting a job.

You have no understanding of the kind of pain and suffering you dish out when people don't fit your percieved notions on how things should be.

Why? Because you have no clue the level of problems they face, and you don't really care. All you want to do is scream at people because they're not working when you think they should - just like my neighbors.

Very, very few people don't work because they don't want to.

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh
reply to post by theQuest

 

And you still don't get it. Because of the very attitude you express, I've lost more than half of the capacity I previously had. My PTSD is much, much worse. That not only affects my ability to work, but it affects my everyday life. I can no longer do the things that you take for granted. I struggled before, but now it's impossible.

The attitude - the freaking "I don't give a crap as long as you WORK" can be very, very destructive for someone like me.

I'll give you an example. A couple of months ago, I decided I might be able to write and work around my disabilities. I wrote some things and sent them out for publication. My neighbor found out about it (who knows how, because I didn't tell him or anyone else) and he stomped over to my house and DEMANDED that I make a living for myself NOW - that I work far more hours than I actually could - all because he despises the idea that I'm getting SSDI and he thinks I should automagically be able to do things just because he says so. The end result of that is that I became sick and couldn't continue with the work I was trying to do. My nascent attempt was killed before it ever got off the ground.

I live in a town where that kind of attitude is rampant, where people come to my house and SCREAM at me because I'm disabled, but when I went to vocational rehab to try to get some help so I could go back to work, they said I was too sick and they couldn't do anything to help me.

If this is happening to me, it's happening to others also. You need to rethink your attitude and ask yourself whether or not there are barriers to work that you're not aware of that are preventing those people you so despise from getting a job.

You have no understanding of the kind of pain and suffering you dish out when people don't fit your percieved notions on how things should be.

Why? Because you have no clue the level of problems they face, and you don't really care. All you want to do is scream at people because they're not working when you think they should - just like my neighbors.

Very, very few people don't work because they don't want to.

Whats to get? Show me where I have attacked your situation. Im sure there are "barriers" that prevent individuals like yourself from recieving employment assistance or financial assistance, I never stated there wasn't. My point, again, is that there are people who are ABLE to work, but are not WILLING to. For a third time, there are people who are ABLE to work, but are not WILLING to. Now do you understand what I said? Because you are of the opinion that I am attacking your own personal situation. And I am not.
Also, if there were people coming to my house and screaming at me, first thing I would do is have them removed from my property. Second, I would not let them stand in my way of doing whatever I put my mind to.

reply to post by theQuest


And how do you know these people don't want to work? Would you care to post links to your sources of information?

Isn't it just as possible that they lack training, that they have mental health issues, or they need training on how to work a job successfully (the imporance of punctuality and other critical work skills)?

You're making a LOT of assumptions about other people when you have no idea what their situation is. That's why I pointed out why I, myself, am not working. There are problems specific to my particular circumstances that prevent it.

WRT not letting other people stand in your way - you show your ignorance yet again. When you have PTSD, STRESS is the problem, and you can't ignore the stress created by the actions of others. That's what the disability is - if we could turn it off at will, there wouldn't be a problem!

As far as getting them off my property - believe me, I've tried. I've told them point blank to stay off my property. I've reported them to the cops. I've even bought a gun and told them so. Thus far, nothing works.

So please, post your links that show all the individuals who are not working do so because they're lazy and they don't want to. And please explain your basis for assuming that's the case.

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh
reply to post by theQuest

 

And how do you know these people don't want to work? Would you care to post links to your sources of information?

Isn't it just as possible that they lack training, that they have mental health issues, or they need training on how to work a job successfully (the imporance of punctuality and other critical work skills)?

You're making a LOT of assumptions about other people when you have no idea what their situation is. That's why I pointed out why I, myself, am not working. There are problems specific to my particular circumstances that prevent it.

WRT not letting other people stand in your way - you show your ignorance yet again. When you have PTSD, STRESS is the problem, and you can't ignore the stress created by the actions of others. That's what the disability is - if we could turn it off at will, there wouldn't be a problem!

As far as getting them off my property - believe me, I've tried. I've told them point blank to stay off my property. I've reported them to the cops. I've even bought a gun and told them so. Thus far, nothing works.

So please, post your links that show all the individuals who are not working do so because they're lazy and they don't want to. And please explain your basis for assuming that's the case.

My wife has worked in this field and has seen it first hand. I live around it. I have family members who are too lazy to work. I understand your situation, and even sympathize with you, however you keep bringing up physical and emotional disorders into the equation, and that is not what I posted about. I posted about, for the 4th time, the INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE PHYSICALLY ABLE TO WORK BUT ARE TOO LAZY TO DO SO. I posted about the instance where an able bodied individual point blank told my wife he could work, but why work a job paying $400 a week when he could sit at home and collect $900 for free from the goverment. I posted about my own family members who are able to work but choose instead to collect welfare and food stamp assistance from the Gov. I don't need to post links to this sort of information, I have experienced it firsthand. So don't mistake my stance for a direct attack on individuals like yourself who may not be in capacity to perform work, my entire post, which I have had to explain to you 5 times already, is about the individuals who are ABLE to work, but instead choose NOT to.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Poverty is not a choice.

If you are physically and mentally able then poverty is a choice. That choice is to not improve oneself in trade skill or knowledge to be worth more to an employer. If a person lives a lackluster life in America that is always poor then the fault rests with them alone.

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh
Very, very few people don't work because they don't want to.

I disagree totally. In your case you have disabilities and so you should get needed support, but most find it just easier to get free money and live a crappy life than to put in the efforts needed to get ahead in life.

reply to post by theQuest


What state do you live in? In my experience, it's been a very long time since "welfare" and government assistance has been available to single people without a bunch of kids at home. Even for those with kids, their ability to draw government assistance is limited. Under current law, no one can draw "welfare" for more than 5 years.

One of the bill's provisions was a time limit. Under the law, no person could receive welfare payments for more than five years, consecutive or nonconsecutive. Another controversial change was transferring welfare to a block grant system, i.e. one in which the federal government gives states "blocks" of money, which the states then distribute under their own legislation and criteria. Some states simply kept the federal rules, but others used the money for non-welfare programs, such as subsidized childcare (to allow parents to work) or subsidized public transportation (to allow people to travel to work without owning cars).[Haskins 2006; Blank 2002].

en.wikipedia.org...

So where are these people you claim don't want to work getting their welfare money from?

In addition, in many cases "welfare" recipients have to work to get their payments.

The consequences of welfare reform have been dramatic. As expected, welfare rolls (the number of people receiving payments) dropped significantly (57%) in the years since passage of the bill. Substantially larger declines in welfare rolls were posted by many states, and even big city-dominated Illinois achieved an 86% reduction in welfare recipients. [MacDougal 2005] Child poverty rates for African American families have dropped the sharpest since statistics began to be tallied in the 1960s; although critics argue that this is due more to overall economic improvement than to welfare reform, and that in any case the rate of child poverty in the United States is still far higher than in nations with greater welfare protections. Some would counter that this apparent disparity is due to misleading statistical analysis (measuring inequality rather than poverty) and that welfare rolls in the United States historically are much more closely correlated with government spending rather than economic fluctuations. The original bill was set to expire in September of 2002; Congress passed numerous reauthorizations as debate continued over Republican attempts to increase the amount of hours that recipients should be required to work. The 1996 welfare reform law was reauthorized in the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005. The reauthorization required the Secretary of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), by June 30, 2006, to promulgate regulations designed to address eligible work activities and uniform reporting and accountability measures. The reauthorization maintains the original law’s requirement that 50 percent of states’ welfare caseloads fulfill statutory work requirements. To fulfill work requirements, TANF recipients must be participating for 20 hours per week (or 30 hours in cases where the youngest child is 6 years old or older) in one or more of the 12 work activities named in the statute.

en.wikipedia.org...

Here's some outtakes from the study of the matter in my state:

Most respondents reported significant barriers to employment. Almost half (45%) were diagnosed as clinically depressed and 16% screened positively for post-traumatic stress syndrome. Over one-quarter indicated drug use problems and slightly more indicated alcohol problems. 35% had no high school diploma or GED and 31% had not worked in one job for six months during the past five years.
Time-limit families and families who left for other reasons face greater barriers than families who left for increased income-higher rates of depression (60% v. 40%), twice as many who lack a high school diploma or GED, more than twice as many who have not worked at one job for six months or more in the last five years.
72% of respondents reported having been emotionally abused since the age of 18.

www.ncsl.org...

Here's how "welfare" works in my state:

Working toward EmploymentHow the Program Works
The Working toward Employment (WTE) program helps single adults and married couples who have no dependent children living with them.

To apply, you must be at least 18 years old or no longer being supported by your parents. This program has very strict work standards to make sure that households become able to support themselves as soon as possible.

WTE customers are paid after they finish all the performance requirements.

Time Limit
A household may not receive WTE Cash Assistance for more than seven months in any eighteen (18) month period.

Over your lifetime, you may not receive WTE Cash Assistance for more than 24 months altogether.

Payment for part of a month counts as payment for a whole month.

jobs.utah.gov...

And a link to ALL the programs, based on individual circumstances:

jobs.utah.gov...

Not a spec in there about drawing $900 a month while you sit at home and do nothing.

Since I have PTSD, when I drew what little I got from the state it was under General Assistance, I got a little over $200 a month plus around $100 in food stamps. Try living on that in a major American city. In addition, when I got my SSDI, the state took their money back from my SSDI payment. In effect, I got nothing.

So pray tell where is all this generosity that would allow me to sit at home, not work, and still collect a bunch of money?

I live in Louisiana, which is totally different from Utah, and I know Utah first hand, because I have lived in Orem and in Provo and have family in Provo now.
Louisiana has a long and torrid history of people spending their entire lives on Welfare and Food Stamps. My wife works in the social field, she sees it firsthand, every day. Since you are researching, start checking out the Welfare systems for Louisiana and Mississsippi, I think you will be surprised. The system is loaded with people who simply choose not to work, and instead draw monthly payments from the Gov. They continue to have kids, even thought they cant support the ones they have now. I have family members who have been on Welfare for as long as I can remember, some who actually do work some on the side for cash money so they can continue to draw the monthly checks. There is no timetable limit for Welfare here, if you show up to the Social Services office and show you have no income, you are eligible to begin recieving Welfare, Food Card (formerly know as Food Stamps) and Medicare assistance. Dont try to tell me about the Welfare system here, you are speaking about something you know nothing of. Be glad you live in an area that at least curtails it somewhat, because it is rampant here.