Masonic Practice and Magic(k)

We have a few high degree masons in our Temple, and from what I have gathered from speaking with them it is only the higher degree masons who do actual occult rituals.

"There is no degree in Freemasonry higher than that of Master Mason, the Third Degree"

This I know however not to be true, very few, dedicated, and like minded individuals are chosen out of certain lodges to advance to degree's above that of the Master Mason...

This is where the real occult practice begins...

reply to post by The Soldier Of Darkness


Actually, that is not correct. The so-called "higher degrees" aren't any more occult than the first three. In fact, they all simply elaborate on the teachings of the first three.

We sometimes call them "higher degrees" out of convenience, but in reality, they are not "higher" than the Third Degree from an institutional perspective. "Additional degrees" would probably therefore be a better term.

Also, those who go on to receive degrees beyond that of Master Mason are not "chosen". Any Master Mason in good standing who so desires may apply for, and receive, those degrees.

reply to post by Masonic Light


That is open for debate I believe, as we have a member who is a 33rd degree mason from the scottish right who has told me otherwise.

But this is not my specialty, I only put forth what I have heard from a mason himself.

Originally posted by The Soldier Of Darkness


That is open for debate I believe, as we have a member who is a 33rd degree mason from the scottish right who has told me otherwise.

But this is not my specialty, I only put forth what I have heard from a mason himself.

I am a 32° KCCH in the Scottish Rite in the United States. You said "we have a member". Do you mean in another Masonic organization?

achieve 33rd degree
haha
really with so much Masonic material in the libraries and media you would think you would all get this correctly. and there is no "magick" or any other sorcery garbage it is philosophy, discussion and Friendship, and ways to live a better life.
Masonry goes up to the 3rd degree period
the Scottish Rite goes through degrees up to the 32nd degree and the 33rd is an honor bestowed on by the Brothers to a distinguished member of the lodge and the Scottish rite.

My Great Uncle was a 33rd degree, My Grandfather and myself were raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason and my father-in-law has been granted the honor of 33rd degree for his charitable contributions and work with the Shrine.

I will be 'enshrined' (in Al-Melaikah) on Saturday the 14th, 08 I am very excited. I can wear the Fez and Give back to the community in a new way.

[edit on 9-6-2008 by fiorano]

reply to post by Masonic Light


Yes, we have a few members in our Temple who belong to a Masonic Lodge.

reply to post by The Soldier Of Darkness


I mean, is your Temple a Masonic organization?

reply to post by The Soldier Of Darkness


Soldier thanks for your comments. I have a question in perticular for you. Many masons and non-masons say that their functions (for lack of better word) are not magickal in any way, something I personally disagree with.

I am interested in what you would have to say to that. Do you think that a group of men can get together, practice a ceremony that has intent, can say that this experience is not magickal?

I personally believe it is, fundementally one and the same, but that is my opinion and the first and foremost reason I will never become a mason (practicing ritual i do not understand with a hug group of men whose intentions I could never truly know) scares me.

As a practicing occultist I would be interested to hear what you think about this.

practicing the ritual with a number of men makes it clear every time you go through it what it is meant to be. there is no "Magick" or unknown intention if you are a member the intentions are clear enough.
there is nothing scary- there is a larger amount of the 'classical' ideals discussed and history and such.
Masonry is about "making a good man better"
i feel the constant Mason bashing and bizarre perceptions are starting to disturb and frustrate me- how many times does every one need to hear REAL Masonic lodges are filled with Good, Law abiding, helpful Charitable, giving community members, who only want to make it better through freindship and service.
and if the secret is that this philosophy is to run the world- oh gosh, honesty and being as good as your word, the world is going to collapse under this demonic idea. Please

Originally posted by Animal


I am interested in what you would have to say to that. Do you think that a group of men can get together, practice a ceremony that has intent, can say that this experience is not magickal?

I personally believe it is, fundementally one and the same, but that is my opinion and the first and foremost reason I will never become a mason (practicing ritual i do not understand with a hug group of men whose intentions I could never truly know) scares me.

I agree with fiorano that the "intentions are clear enough". The purpose behind Masonic ritual is both to instruct the new member in the tenets of Freemasonry, and to urge the candidate to take a closer look at himself in that regard.

As to whether or not this qualifies as "Magic" depends on what definition you're using. If you mean something supernatural, it of course does not qualify.

However, if you use the Hermetic definition of Magic, which says that every willful act is a magical act, and that any change in consciousness brought about through self-knowledge is the true definition of Magic, then yes, it would seem that Masonic *can be* magical (although not necessarily so; it would depend entirely upon how the candidate responds).

In a sense, I do see how this could be "scary"; a serious and honest look into oneself is not always for the faint of heart. However, the ritual seems to have been designed by Adepts, and the ordeal's sole purpose is to bring one into the Light, i.e., to assist in awakening him from the mundane into the light of truth and knowledge.

I believe it was Castenada's Don Juan who once said that the quest for knowledge is a hazardous pursuit, and one must be a man to undertake it. However, if the hermetic theory is correct, then regardless of how dangerous and scary it may seem, it is the very purpose for our existence.

reply to post by Masonic Light


No, we are a Temple dedicated to the study of the Occult, and we have a few high ranking members in our Temple who are Masons themselves, and belong to a Masonic Lodge outside their affiliation with our Temple.

reply to post by Animal


I believe there are some masons who know nothing of the occult, or magick, and are indeed good men, and their particular lodge might not be associated with the occult in any way, they i believe might only be a front ( bottom of the pyramid ) if you will...the guys who pay the bills

However, I have rubbed shoulders with men who would frighten you into the next life should you meet them face to face and hear them speak...

Their occult knowledge if vast, and they are powerful men in their communities / cities ... and most belong to a large masonic lodge...

So i'll leave you to interpret that for yourselves...

I will applaud you Soldier for maintaining a maturity in discussion i have seen little of in these boards on ATS.
Yes Masons can be involved in reading and studying the occult- it is an individual preference. but being a student of the occult and being a mason are two ideas which are not one and the same these are two pursuits which may seem to have a superficial similarity but are not related beyond the 'unknown' qualities to the outsider.
as far as the 'bottom of the pyramid' and 'bill payer' ideas
if this were true the majority of Masons would abandon the lodge due to the hypocrisy and deception which is very much counter masonic teachings and way of being a better man. It would literally destroy the Order of F & A M and while the Mason who would remain may start a new lodge system in the spirit of the Lodge, this would really be destroying to much of the social fabric- of course this is what you would be implying isn't it.?
This simply is not Masonic in this case and the controlling
'top" of the pyramid is not controlling what you think.
the powerful men in the communities who also are masons are likely so because of their character- which if indeed they are Brothers than they are decent and good men and anything contrary to this they would not likely be Masons, in the sense that they exist in the "public-yet-only-found-through-seeking-manner" in which we all masons can be known.

reply to post by The Soldier Of Darkness


This would be the first time I have ever heard a 33rd SR mason claim that you had to be "chosen" for "higher degrees." I know a handful, and they all say that the additional degrees, as I know from my own experiences and as Masonic Light has said, are given to any Master Mason in good standing.

What may be going on is its someone with the 33rd degree who is a bit absorbed with himself. I do know a 33rd degree mason who believes his 33rd somehow makes him special and gives him some sort of authority, but its his belief only and is not ground in fact. Every other 33rd degree I know is your average joe and none of them thought the degree was anything more than an honor - sort of like an honorary PhD - its nice, but it has little intrinsic meaning.

However..just as honorary PhD holders sometimes let it go to their heads, I'm sure out of the many, many people who have been given the honor some of them are a bit arrogant about it.

People are going to have to give a huge all-inclusive definition to magic in order to make masonic ritual anything close to it. And when we start using definitions that inclusive, brushing my teeth becomes magic - hey, I do it with purpose and its a twice a day ritual!

[edit on 9-6-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Why I started this thread and what I believe is this...

Despite the reassurances that the "intentions" of masonic rituals are "clear enough" does little to reassure me and this is why.

As one who is interested in the occult and thus things like ritual I have developed a strong respect for it.

Part of this respect is manifest in my uneasiness in participating in ritual I do not understand the Origin of, the true intention of those of facilitate, lead, and participate in said ritual.

It is my belief that we all can be easily duped into participating in something that could have many unforeseen, or simply unseen, consequences. For instance impacts on the being of myself, consequences outside of myself, etc...

Now I am sure many, if not all, of you masons still think this is a bunch of hooey, and that is perfectly fine, but it is till not enough to reassure me to the point where I would ever be willing to participate.

I think I am correct in assuming the true origins of your rituals can not be fully disclosed, not only because of secrecy, but also due to missing knowledge.

This is where I stand and this is why I asked the question I did. It was not to bait you all but to see into your world view and understand how you feel, knowing or unknowing about this issue.

To Masoniclight and all the other masons here, I seriously mean you guys NO disrespect. This is just where I am at and it is in NO way a judgment against the men of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness


This would be the first time I have ever heard a 33rd SR mason claim that you had to be "chosen" for "higher degrees." I know a handful, and they all say that the additional degrees, as I know from my own experiences and as Masonic Light has said, are given to any Master Mason in good standing.

I have to re-qualify my earlier statement, as I noticed that Soldier is in Australia.

The Scottish Rite in Australia uses the British model. It admits Master Masons up to the 18°. The 30°, 32°, and 33° are invitational.

However, the Australian Scottish Rite, like its British parent, also is strictly a Christian organization, and only admits Trinitarian Christian. This is another difference it has with the Mother Jurisdiction in the United States, which is completely non-sectarian.

Originally posted by Animal

Now I am sure many, if not all, of you masons still think this is a bunch of hooey, and that is perfectly fine, but it is till not enough to reassure me to the point where I would ever be willing to participate.

That, of course, is your call. Masonic initiation is for those who seek it, and certainly no one should ever be pressured into it.

On one hand, we have to say "it's just a fraternity initiation". The ritual in and of itself is, in my opinion, very interesting; but the only "power" it contains is the power to make us think.

On the other hand, I am convinced that the ritual symbolizes internal spiritual growth. It is my personal opinion that the ritual was designed by Adepts, probably of the Rosicrucian school, for that purpose. The ritual itself cannot make anyone grow in this manner, but can offer a key to the path of enlightenment.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Am I right though in thinking you have no proof of where the rituals came from and no proof of who made them? I have been under the impression that they are in some way disconnected from historical record. I would be very interested to hear if this is indeed true or false. Thanks again for your reply Masonic Light.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
However, the Australian Scottish Rite, like its British parent, also is strictly a Christian organization, and only admits Trinitarian Christian. This is another difference it has with the Mother Jurisdiction in the United States, which is completely non-sectarian.

Your posts on this thread have been very insightful

I'm off on a tangent here but...do you know if the Old Prussian Lodges were descended from the Scottish rite or the York Rite or neither? If I recall German freemasonry is/was descended from the British model, not sure though??? I am sure the Old Prussians were purely Christian (are Lutherans Trinitarians???).

(None Nazis interest incidently, more interested in the Trade Guilds)

Thanks

Well, I think I know what to do to find out about all this "hoo haa" thats been made about the Freemasons...

I will join our local lodge and then judge for myself...

Strange ive never considered joining a masonic lodge, but i'll ask my friend to point me in the right direction and i'll take it from there.