I would also take "sorcery" in a broader sense and not only about the use of certain substances.
I'd much prefer the term "magic" or even consider white / black magic or sorcery as you like.

I'm going to try and explain my view on the conspiracy about sorcery.

When i was younger i used to go to a place in Portugal which had some "traditions". One of these is the St Cyprian Book. It is told that he was a great sorcerer that later converted to christianism. The Book contains pages in black text for anything related to "the good side" and pages in red text for anything related to black magic. It is supposed to be used as a tool to understand both sides and maybe become a better person.
There are different other books with supposedly even more power, like maybe the "Steel Cover" or "Capa de Aço".
The legends that come with these books say that there are very few left, that most were burnt by christians or taken by inquisitors.
And they say that there is a special place in the Vatican library called ironically "Hell" that contains all the Books, texts that were taken during the Inquisition.

The way i see this conspiracy with sorcery is like that : in my view, in almost every religion, there is two sides, Theory and Practice.
Christianity not only the religion that has almost no trace of practice books/texts but it is also the one that went to great lengths to suppress it.
Seeing that for example, Portugal and Spain have some really strong catholic roots, it seems fair to say that these books maybe helped religion take a bigger hold on people there.

But the conspiracy is right there, either they let people talk to god and interact with it (practice) or they just tell them what it is they have to believe.

OP's got it all wrong, and full disclosure-this is coming from a Christian.

OK, let's look at the etymology of pharma, shall we?

Wikipedia's article on Pharmakos reads:
"The term 'pharmakos' later became the term 'pharmacos' which refers to a poisoner, a magician, or a sorcerer. A variation of this term is 'pharmacon' (φάρμακον) meaning either a magical substance or drug."

Now, in the Bible, context is very, very important. I'm not going to argue that things such as voodoo dolls and chalk pentagrams are not taboo for Christians, but to argue that medicinal drugs are is counter-intuitive, considering that balms (drugs) are referred to positively in numerous places in scripture and that Christ received frankincense and myrrh, plants with medicinal properties, shortly after his birth. Therefore, it was most likely that prohibitions against pharmakos referred to the magical substances and not the drugs.

[edit on 1-3-2008 by jubuwal]

One need only look inside for Dark and White magic, sorcery, spells.

Think about what man has done to himself, others by just saying a few words hundreds, thousands even millions die.

War is declared.

Drugs are made.

Laws are created.

Things are built.

All by the power of words.

We put our faith in others only to be used. Why not look inside ourselves instead of giving all of our powers, votes, decisions to others.

Ask yourself right now.

Can the person I put my trust in do better than I could? because this is what you do when you vote for a candidate.

You cast a spell and give them the power to decide for you.

Take a look around and see how much power has been given to those that abuse it and you. You have the power inside you, but they don't want you to find yourself.

Create chaos and there will never be inner peace.

Think about how your always searching, questioning, and never seem to find the answer externally, but I promise you the answer lies within.

Peace to you all.

Government, manipulated by certain pressure groups, has the power to dictate what drugs people can take legally, and mete out penalties to "abusers". Worse, their decisions are based upon superstition not science. That is black magic / bad medicine of the worst kind.

Government, manipulated by certain pressure groups, has the power to dictate what drugs people can take legally, and mete out penalties to "abusers". Worse, their decisions are based upon superstition not science. That is black magic / bad medicine of the worst kind.

How did my message get posted twice?

Well we can't have mentally imbalanced peeps using medications to cure or control their emotional problems. Why they might get their thinking and their lives on track and never see any need to indulge in the imaginary friend christianity offers as a nostrum for all their woes.

so if the knowledge of how to use mariuana or other "drugs" naturally growing in "the garden" was more available to man and not lost in time; do you think it evil for man in that sense to use a substance with the knowledge of how to use that substance; to enter states of altered reality in the physical with senses of beings labled demonic and the right sound voice from resonating in those altered states to speak up with the word or "conjure" from the mass of creation life events like wealth love and other tangents from a point (non null void and void null non void).

if this be the comprehension of such looking in past tense of doctrine as mostly when lookin in past tense of prior teachings; with a difference in perception due to time itself and changes, i from this perspective as a being lineated from a creationary point labeled present; would find that a true christ incaarnated being regardless of time and the differences it plays on situations would say that in all instances i find abominations with actions that can be deemed an aspect of actions proceeding from a doctrine and law as an act unlawfully against ones will to exert a force on another as sin.

but does that mean in some parallel universe people feel the same way and the force is portrayed differently as seen in movies like star wars and the lightest always get placed in the darkest of cituational instances do to the same doctrine and law and actions arising from such portraying itself as an expression of god but doing against its own will to exert force on another as sin .

like flip around mass consciousness perspectives about the littles atoms instead of learning from thinking you are the most important atom in a place where life revolves around you and then coming to think hey theres a larger atom and its the "sun" and the perciever is then told that as a mass of consciouss atoms that it is no longer the most high atom but just revolved around a shining sun in a black dense space far from "itself"; im sure the things people do now adays would seem like sin. even me thinking up the nonsense to type this and keep someones attention in front of a computer screen reading this.

so sin in this age can be doctrinized and laws can be implemented that would have an impact of a being or conscious atom having a perspective of life through projected thought from within said atom or conscious being.

does that conscious being have rights to interact with the form of thought before expression of intent of interaction with the physical form created from the smallest conscious atom or being?

so in a prior age such was manifested as plants but force moves and non containable; in a different age say flip flop of this one in a conscious atoms perspective; where the smallest atom is given rights to interact with the form of creation before intent expressed to do such; would doing as a conscious being something that makes you feel the way you do "now" when you take medicinal things and actually now talking to the aspect of life that was always conscious but directed to certain functions based on many parameters; seem sinfull?


i think seperation of church and state was a conscious attempt at trying to make sure rights would not be a thought when acting and actions seperated from law and not judged as sin and then prosecuted vie means of the systems in which a form of life is thrusted into based from the conscious projection or aware atom experiencing "life" and un/lawfully interacting with the manifeted creation without expression of intent to interact prior to aware atoms thought to experience.

if what i said makes no sense it cause i was kinda ranting and just saying thoughts. please continue if you felt harmed by my speech

Originally posted by jubuwal
OP's got it all wrong, and full disclosure-this is coming from a Christian.

Now, in the Bible, context is very, very important.

Yes is context is very important. It's funny you say that and then offer no context or evidence to back up your claim. You claim I misinterpreted based on a weak reference to wikipedia, not exactly the choice for Biblical scholarship. So what verse does your context come form?

I'm not saying all drug use is bad. I am saying in the Bible it is referred to as Sorcery and it is never cast in a good light.

There might have been "good drugs" in the Bible but you haven't shown that. To make any sort of point you should provide verses and the translations as I have done.

Well .. a distinction has to be made between seed bearing plants and human manufactured drugs, legal or illegal, whether they come from seed bearing plants or not. Being extremely well versed in this topic, I will proceed to make your eyes bleed.

In Genesis, as most of us know, there is a passage that states God has given us all seed-bearing plants to use or consume. Marijuana has seeds, Alcohol is just an (natural!) extract of a rotten byproduct formed when you let seed bearing fruit rot, excuse me, ferment. man has to perform NO chemical synthesis on these things to create them, they are not synthetic, they are natural, of the Earth. Even Opium, Papaver Somniferum or "poppies" is a seed bearing plant. Therefore Morphine base is okay to use by God *IF* you extracted it from an opium plant, not if you received it in a synthetic form by a Pharmaceutical manufacturer. Morphine base exists naturally in opium, as does Codeine base.

On the otherhand, things derived from the plants, yet involving some processes and additives, chemicals, by mankind to isolate certain drugs, make them stronger, then make synthetic versions of them, are not okay to use, if you go by the Bible. Therefore, diacetylmorphine, or heroin, would not be acceptable because even though it is created from opium, which is a seed bearing plant and O.K. to use, these additives like certain acids and these processes like requiring a laboratory make it man-made or man-altered to a point where its not natural. Diacetylmorphine does not occur naturally in the wildness, okay. By this rationale, chewing Coca leaf, or drinking Coca leaf, is okay, where as Cocaine, the purified drug which has chemical processes done to it, is not okay to use, it does not occur naturally in the wilderness. Are you following me here?

Morphine occurs naturally in the wilderness. Alcohol occurs naturally in the wilderness. Tobacco occurs naturally in the wilderness. Marijuana occurs naturally in the wilderness. Prozac does not occur naturally in the wilderness, and Crack definitely doesn't naturally occur in the wilderness.

This is how to determine what is what, what is okay to use and what isnt. If one is sticking to a strict regimen .. one could still exist perfectly healthy, perfectly happy, with ways to help cure their ailments and give them real relief, all the while barring non-naturally-occuring drugs, ie; most pharmies. This is one reason medical marijuana has become so popular, it is so much less physically addicting, you do not go into a spaz and start vomiting if you haven't had your marjuana that day, but you will if you havent taken your pharmaceutical pain meds that day. And if you want to quit, be prepared for a heroin like withdrawal, marijuana doesnt do that to you either. But I will stop here because I am sure this thread is being closely watched by staff, and want this information to get out there.

Therefore, Sorcery to me would be the creation and/or use of synthetic drugs that do not naturally occur in the wilderness. Doctors are sorcerers, but so are the Scientists at the Pharmaceutical Plant.

[edit on 3/1/2008 by runetang]

Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live

Exodus 22:18, I believe.

Should we slaughter all the junkies, then?

Question, BigWhammy. Are you including simple substances such as aspirin? I'm asking because, being a nurse I see the need and merit for "drugs" within the scope of health care.

Also, I'm more and more inclined to see Big Pharma condemned by their very acts of control and manipulations of the medicines they manufacture.
Physicians.....to a lesser degree. There's a new generation of MDs showing more spiritual awareness than in previous years.

Anyways, I see what you mean by the earth and all its creation being in a "fallen" state...ie: debased and no longer pure. That's why we need to make proper use of what we have versus just consuming every herb or food-stuff--thinking it's all good for us. The castor bean is a great example, by the way!

I also agree with the posters about Big Govt. working in colussion with Big Pharma in that they are "spell casting"...saying what drugs are good for consumption and what is not. The biggest debacle I've encountered is the battle against medical marijuana use for folks that suffer crippling diseases; where medicating with marijuana is of immesurable relief.

It's just criminal to refuse people (all of us) cheaper alternatives versus high dollar synthetic drugs....which THEY manufacture and the govt. legislates in their favor.

OP, I'd like to apologize. I did not read your original post thoroughly enough and mistakenly believed you were condemning *all* drugs. My apologies, I will read closer in the future.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
What about the seed bearing plant the Rosary Pea (also called castor bean)?
Is it ok to eat ? Keep in mind that one seed is fatal
Your logic sounds good on the surface. It doesn't really hold up.

"All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial" - Apostle Paul

Also after the flood God gave man the permission to eat ever piece of meat he could get his hands on.

And in another light said (after the flood) the same thing that Jesus later said, "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword"...or rather in genesis it says, "he who take a mans life...period...will have his taken." (no if ands or buts).

In a way, many Christians disobey this latter command repeated blatantly in the O.T. and N.T. when participating in taking another life in War. (killing never stopped killing, it just keeps spreading, someones cousin will take revenge, etc.)

So what is sorcery? It becomes clear. A person who manipulates with the intent of deceiving and leading astray a mass group of people from the truth that is shown in creation. (Kind of like what is happening today with a lot of evangelicals who dont understand the plain words of Genesis and JEsus saying to put a chill on the killing.)

They can use (the sorcerer) any means at their disposal to do this.
The means or the tool is not the issue its what comes from the "heart of man" that shows what fruit there is.

In short the whole topic is a bit off track, or rather focusing on something that in and of itself is not the issue.

There is already quite a good thread, if your interested, on this topic in R.A.T.S.
It used to be here but due to a change in thinking, whatever, it was moved to where Google could not search for certain terms that might affect ATS ratings.

Peace

dAlen