The Sorcery Conspiracy

Thanks for the clarification. I was pretty sure as to what I thought you were meaning...just clarifying for my own benefit.

Originally posted by dAlen

"All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial" - Apostle Paul

I think the emphasis should be on the not all things are beneficial
part. God's Word warns against these things.

Romans 13:12-14, "The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying: but put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Proverbs 23:31-32 "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder."

Isaiah 28:7, "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink. They are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment."

Maybe you never thought of this, but you should know that drug use opens you up to spiritual attack. Ephesians 6:12 warns us of such things:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Satan loves it when you drink alcohol and use drugs because you are then in no shape to fight against his attacks. You are leaving yourself wide open to demonic possession.

So what is sorcery? It becomes clear. A person who manipulates with the intent of deceiving and leading astray a mass group of people from the truth that is shown in creation. (Kind of like what is happening today with a lot of evangelicals who don't understand the plain words of Genesis and JEsus saying to put a chill on the killing.)

They can use (the sorcerer) any means at their disposal to do this.
The means or the tool is not the issue its what comes from the "heart of man" that shows what fruit there is.

In short the whole topic is a bit off track, or rather focusing on something that in and of itself is not the issue.

I think you make a good point about a persons intent. But the word Sorcery in the Bible is about drugs - in combination with bad intent. I think the substances themselves are part of the issue because they weaken your spiritual defenses.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

You said,

I think the junkie is the victim. The Sorcerer is the dealer.

And then you said,

When the Bible speaks of sorcery most people picture kindly old Merlin in his pointy hat or perhaps a precocious young Harry Potter. Well it might be more accurate if you picture Keith Richards.

Dear old Keef was most certainly a junkie in his time, but not even his worst enemy would accuse him of selling drugs. Giving them away, maybe.

And anyway, are you suggesting we should kill all the drug dealers?

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

You said,

I think the junkie is the victim. The Sorcerer is the dealer.

And then you said,

When the Bible speaks of sorcery most people picture kindly old Merlin in his pointy hat or perhaps a precocious young Harry Potter. Well it might be more accurate if you picture Keith Richards.

Dear old Keef was most certainly a junkie in his time, but not even his worst enemy would accuse him of selling drugs. Giving them away, maybe.

And anyway, are you suggesting we should kill all the drug dealers?

Well the keith thing was a joke -- it wasn't a "and then you said" situation they were completely seperate posts that you spliced together in a rather transparent attempt to bait me into some sort of "intolerance" pissing match.



Where did I suggest killing anyone? I didn't.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
completely seperate posts that you spliced together in a rather transparent attempt to bait me into some sort of "intolerance" pissing match.

Where did I suggest killing anyone? I didn't.

Thank you for your clarification. I'm not trying to bait you into anything. I'm just curious to know your views -- or anybody's views, for that matter -- on that verse in Exodus. It is, after all, the word from the Bible on witches (or sorcerers, if you wish; I prefer the King James version for aesthetic reasons but the words are equivalent, even in English, despite the gender convention). Do you agree with it? Should practitioners of sorcery, pharmaceutical or otherwise, be put to death? Should the boards and shareholders of Big Pharma be executed?

That would certainly put a nice ironic twist on the usage 'lethal injection'.

It seems that, as far as the word sorcery goes, whoever is responsible for communicating these scriptures definitely intended for psychadelic and hallucinogenic plants and herbs to be included in the definition.

However..


What if, for thousands and thousands of years, original man and his tribes kept knowledge of divine plants and herbs. What if, they used these plants for spiritual and emotional healing, to communicate with higher intelligences, to get closer to nature, to have visions, etc. Then along comes gradual changes that have mankind forming modern (relatively) civilizations. These civilizations grow and grow and encompass the whole earth, they become the norm, and these tribes are slowly pushed out of existence, save a few isolated and dwindling indigenous tribes. What if, a few powerful and "enlightened" groups keep this ancient knowledge and knowingly suppress the information, keeping the masses away from that kind of ideology. What if, some sinister forces make these plants, roots, and herbs out to be "evil" because they fear members of the general population will be able to use these natural tools for their own power, health, psyche, etc. Lastly, what if, this wonderful existence we all partake in can't be divided into just good and evil, black and white. After all, if a wild dog tears you to shreds and eats you, you would think something evil was happening but in the dog's mind there is nothing evil going on it's just eating and staying alive.

Now with that being said, I believe love is the answer and those that seek it, and service to others, may have or develop the ability to grow, ascend, advance, whatever that means or whatever that entails in ways and dimensions our feable minds may not be able to yet comprehend. I just can't buy in to these notions that some plants or things growing naturally out of earth are evil and can doom one to eternal damnation. Harmful, yes, just like a bible can be harmful if you're using it to hit somebody in the head, as opposed to reading the scriptures in search of enlightenment. Can these things be dangerous, open doors or allow "demons" of sorts to mess with your mind, I believe: definitely. Which is why, like anything, you should know what you're doing and also be spiritually fit and prepared, like the natives were, and unlike most modern people that are just looking for an escape, a high or a quick buzz.

reply to post by Astyanax


That Old testament law was specific to that time and to the tribe of Israel. I believe God had very good reasons for it in that situation. You have to understand the entire story of the Bible for it to make sense.

In Genesis when man sinned God promised that through the seed of the woman Satan's head would be crushed. To accomplish this he took the Jews aside as his chosen people. He sought to keep them genetically and spiritually pure as possible so he could deliver the messiah through their line.

Did you know that Drs were killing patients by the thousands because they didn't know to wash their hands in hospitals until the 20th century. It's sad but true. Modern understanding of germs is recent. Well God told the Jews all about "clean and unclean" way back in 1461 BC.

(Lev. 11:36)
A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean.

That's a proof of supernatural knowledge to me. Jesus fulfilled Gods promise by dying on the cross and "crushing Satan's head" by paying the price for our sins.

So the Old Testament Law really does not apply to Christians in the same way. Do you understand? Now I quoted New Testament verses on Sorcery so I'm not using a double standard on you.






[edit on 3/1/2008 by Bigwhammy]

[edit on 3/1/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Astyanax
Should practitioners of sorcery, pharmaceutical or otherwise, be put to death?

Being that New Testament Christians are no longer under the Old Testament Jewish Law, the answer would be no. 'Suffer not a witch to live' is an Old Testament Jewish law. Without getting into a long winded history of the Ancient Near East in terms of OT and NT covenants, in OT times the law was swift and immediate. You did not have the luxury of repentance concerning certain sins. Then Jesus came and placed us under grace where we are now able to ask for forgiveness without immediately being 'struck by the sledgehammer' of the law.

Again, he is not saying all drugs would be bad. The main quote Whammy uses is a prophecy regarding the end times. It is basically saying there will be a widespread drug problem that reaches an uncontrollable level. Either by illegal drug abuse or the fact even legal drugs will be everywhere. And in this day in age, they most obviously are.

reply to post by comm12


I addressed the ancient times use of drugs in the OP. The Book of Enoch manuscript from the Dead Sea scrolls is from 200 BC, it teaches that Fallen Angels taught the use of "roots and plants"

And all the others (Fallen Angels) together with them took unto themselves (human) wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants.
(Enoch 7:1-2)

So it is no wonder that it was forbidden. It was the teaching of the fallen Angels.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Right on, whoever/whatever, was responsible for forbidding the use of these plants, certainly did not want us utilizing what these fallen beings had taught us, because it would certainly contradict what whoever/whatever (God/Gods/?) had intended for us, whether it be for our own good or secretly against growth of our own knowledge and understanding.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

Thank you again. That seems quite an enlightened way of looking at it. I understand the Bible story pretty well, I think; at any rate, various religious-knowledge prizes, a Divinity O-level and a chequered career as a choirboy attest to some familiarity with it. And I was once, briefly, a member of something called Youth for Christ.

Thanks also to Ashley D for the exegesis. That kind of thing is fascinating when it is done well, and you do it very well. When I was a believer I was the sort that has to think about what he believes in, but I could never do it half as well as that.

reply to post by Astyanax


What denomination was it?


Since this thread is about a conspiracy to hide the Bible teaching on drug use for pleasureand/or enlightenment let me ask you was it ever discussed in any of those organizations or functions that you were involved with?

Originally posted by AshleyD
Because some say they can open a door and let in false spirits. It also makes me wonder if the similarities between the words sorceries and pharmacies were similar for this reason. Perhaps in antiquity they were used for an interconnected purpose.

In esoteric,arcane and ancient texts if they are valid we find the same warnings, to avoid losing consciousness, during any procedures, as it opens a window for harmful spirits. It is the same for an unattended victim from trauma. These harmful types search out the incapacitated. It is not so much an issue of use, as one of abuse. Jesus honored his mothers request for more wine, but was also outspoken about the three days that had already gone on. Its my personal belief he was worried for the people that in excess they would become unconscious, and weakened enough for harm.



One point for the OP. Enoch is not part of the bible. There is a reference to Enoch in one of the first books but it no longer exists in the modern bible: KJV

reply to post by Illahee


You are correct Enoch is not part of the regular cannon. I used the Book of Enoch because it contains the story of where the use of roots and plants originates. The story is supported by the Genesis 6 account as well.

Illahee if you want to post the warnings from the esoteric text you mentioned that would be interesting.

Several posters have commented about the forbidden knowledge suppressed by the church. Well I did include it. That's why I used Enoch. I do not wish to suppress knowledge but to deny ignorance. I feel like the word "Sorcery" serves ignorance in that we do not apply it to modern life. Chemical use that opens one up to outside influence is a form of sorcery in the biblical sense.






[edit on 3/1/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Hey Bigwhammy major props for being a Christian and actually considering the nuances of the text instead of taking it at face value! The faith neets more people like you.

My thoughts. Though I agree that drug use can open you up to negative spiritual influences, I wonder if the commandment is there not so much because of that, but because the drugs may eventually, because of the spirits or because of the drug itself, prevent the users from having any sort of spiritual experiences at all.

Maybe they essentially "kill the soul," meaning that the person can never hear God speak, and is thus much more docil and easily distracted by corporeal stimulation. Some people link pharmaceuticals and food additives with the cacification of the pineal gland.

So maybe the whole point of drugs--and I am speaking of the synthetic ones more than the natural ones, though those can be used to a harmful degree as well, of course--is to take the soul out of humanity and bring us to a point where our entire existance is defined by what the body needs. I.E., "I need a fix, I'm willing to rob to get it, and I'm never going to quiet because I don't even know who I am without the drugs."

I'll give an anecdote. One time I went to an emergency room, and while I was in the lobby, a man came and stuck up the place for pain pills. What was scary to me wasn't so much his threats, but the fact that when I looked at him, I got the feeling that there was nothing inside of him. He didn't seem angry or posessed, just... empty, like he was moving by instinct alone.

From that experience, I think the point of drugs as used by Satan and his ilk may be more along the lines of, to use a kind of Learyism, "turning off and tuning out" humanity, preventing us from recognizing God, understanding our spiritual side, or even caring about what happens in the world so long as our fix is availible.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
What I''m really getting at is a poor translation, we don't understand the true meaning of the scripture because we understand sorcery to be something different today.

Excellent post Big whammy-to bring what was 'lost' back into the light I discovered this mistranslation just recently after having picked up a concordance a "Strongs" one. We don't know why the translations we have today are not completely accurate, it could be lack of info in the original translators time or something sinister. What is important to note is that today as knowledge was foretold to increase see Daniel last chapter, we have available to us information that was kept back or lost in previous generations!!

We are very blessed on one end and yet overwhelmed on the other. Yahshua states in Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

We today are given much, we're the information age no doubt. But the problem is things aren't brought into the light as much as they should be. Even our Saviors' name has been made known to us, the most important name in all a persons life, but people still harden their hearts and use the mistranslated one instead....

All we can possibly hope to do is share and learn and bring hidden things of old into the light and hope and pray that eventually people who really do love God will embrace the truth, the way and the life.

But you're correct, sorcery is happening all over the place today, it is one of the biggest industries of our time. Why? Because we are in the last kingdom, the iron and clay=technology and man. Now that's actually something to jump for joy about, this is the last kingdom on earth before the everlasting kingdom comes in!!!

I cant make sense of this thread. Is it religion (the opiate of the people) or Drugs (the substances that release the mind alterants already in us), or the responsibility to be good and loving people no matter what you do, say, use, wear, practice, create, or believe?

Everyone seems to be describing a car that can be painted any color, have any body or style, be pimped with any number of things, use any number of different fuels or power, engines, make, model, have any bumper sticker or decal proclaiming religion, political or cultural preference.

I think it is more important to focus on the driver.

All else is the illusion we wrap ourselves in to assume we know something about an infinite wondrous and beautiful loving world.

It is base consciousness to be so wrapped up in the illusions. I find it is better to focus on the spirit of things, not the things that are only incidental to spirit.

ZG

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

Did you know that Drs were killing patients by the thousands because they didn't know to wash their hands in hospitals until the 20th century. It's sad but true. Modern understanding of germs is recent.

Good point. It also wasn't until relatively recently that our science "knew" of four elements (earth air fire water), and we "cured" disease by draining blood.

The human body is far more complex than we'll probably ever understand, hence one reason for the Bible's teachings not to experiment or Sorcer with it, esp. recreationally. Short of major trauma or imbalance, it does a wonderful job of taking care of itself.

Not that all medicine and knowledge is bad; I'd much rather get sick or hurt today than even 50 years ago!! But sometimes you gotta wonder we've been coaxed into accepting our weak medical knowledge as the cure-all....

reply to post by comm12

KJV
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

10Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.

11And the women conceiving brought forth giants, (7)

((7) The Greek texts vary considerably from the Ethiopic text here. One Greek manuscript adds to this section, "And they [the women] bore to them [the Watchers] three races–first, the great giants. The giants brought forth [some say "slew"] the Naphelim, and the Naphelim brought forth [or "slew"] the Elioud. And they existed, increasing in power according to their greatness." See the account in the Book of Jubilees.)

12Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;

13When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them;

14And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, (8) and to drink their blood.

(8) Their flesh one after another. Or, "one another’s flesh." R.H. Charles notes that this phrase may refer to the destruction of one class of giants by another (Charles, p. 65).

15Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.




Chapter 8



1Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.

2Impiety increased; fornication multiplied; and they transgressed and corrupted all their ways.

3Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots:

4Armers taught the solution of sorcery;

5Barkayal taught the observers of the stars, (9)

(9) Observers of the stars. Astrologers (Charles, p. 67).

6Akibeel taught signs;

7Tamiel taught astronomy;

8And Asaradel taught the motion of the moon,

9And men, being destroyed, cried out; and their voice reached to heaven.



Chapter 9



1Then Michael and Gabriel, Raphael, Suryal, and Uriel, looked down from heaven, and saw the quantity of blood which was shed on earth, and all the iniquity which was done upon it, and said one to another, It is the voice of their cries;

Now, you see that(according to that book) it was not good for mankind, added to the fact that after drugs, the angels taught them war and other stuff almost bringing tatal destruction.

I don't rely too heavily on the Book of Enoch, though.

Originally posted by BigwhammySNIP

Pharmacy is the evolution of Alchemy and Alchemy is using chemicals, nothing else.