At least most of them weren't Americans.

Originally posted by BlueRaja



3 big problems these surveys can't reconcile are-
A- observed attacks creating mass casualties.
B- different areas of Iraq have had different levels of violence(or no violence since '03), so you can't extrapolate a figure for the entire country based upon what may be true in another.
C- was their family member an insurgent?

A doesn't make any difference, they are dead as a result of our un-mittigated pre-emptive attack, subsequent invasion and occupation of that country.

B be is irelevent unless you can give an answer that applies to Iraq. You saying what may be true in anorther works if there WAS another. They are only talking about Iraq.

C if he was an Iraqi insurgent and is dead he doesn't count? There is a reason you ask that question but how it makes a difference in the aggregate deaths can not be invalidated .

[edit on 30-1-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Conspiriology

A doesn't make any difference, they are dead as a result of our un-mittigated pre-emptive attack, subsequent invasion and occupation of that country.

B be is irelevent unless you can give an answer that applies to Iraq. You saying what may be true in anorther works if there WAS another. They are only talking about Iraq.

C if he was an Iraqi insurgent and is dead he doesn't count? There is a reason you ask that question but how it makes a difference in the aggregate deaths can not be invalidated .

[edit on 30-1-2008 by Conspiriology]

A-It does make a difference if the number is significantly different, which I believe it to be. Numbers like these would require many events where very large casualty rates occurred(much larger than have been observed). They'd have to occur in areas of large population densities, as your not gonna have 1 million killed, one at a time.

B- I'm talking about Iraq. Iraq has 18 provinces, numerous ethnic groups, rural, urban, nomadic peoples, etc.. even in the most violent period, 14 of the 18 provinces were stable. My point is you can't go into an area that has a lot of attacks, take a survey, and then extrapolate figures, when the other 14 provinces don't have violence(or any statistically significant amounts of violence). It will throw off your survey accuracy. It would be like taking a survey in the early 80s among male homosexuals and intravenous drug users, about the frequency of HIV/AIDS, and then extrapolating the figures into the entire population. That would've resulted in a statistic saying that 250 million Americans had HIV/AIDS.

C- it does make a difference if their loved one was an insurgent, as that would increase the likelihood of them having a violent death vs. John Q Public walking down the street minding their business. It's known as a high risk behavior. The only way this statistic would be useful, is each of the 4+ million households had at least one insurgent in their family.

[edit on 30-1-2008 by BlueRaja]

Originally posted by BlueRaja



A-It does make a difference if the number is significantly different, which I believe it to be. Numbers like these would require many events where very large casualty rates occurred(much larger than have been observed). They'd have to occur in areas of large population densities, as your not gonna have 1 million killed, one at a time.

First of all that's a BIG "if" and secondly what you "believe it to be" is one thing the 300,000 dead bodies found after Bush Sr spent 30 days of non stop bombing in Desert Storm would qualify as large casualty rates after the "million man" army was crushed by all that ordnance.

B is sooo full of ,,,well let me put it this way Province or no province whether 100 die in one and 2000 in another THEY ALL ADD UP TO 2100 DEATHS IN THAT COUNTRY It's real academic guy.

C- You can "create" qualifiers that invalidate those deaths as not legitimate but the families surviving those dead DON"T GIVE A DAMN what "risk assessment" you talk about.

ALL THEY KNOW IS THAT ONE DAY THEY WERE ALIVE AND THE NEXT THE UNITED STATES CAME IN AND BLEW UP THERE HOUSE!

Lose the tunnel vision Raja and face the facts

WE WERE WRONG FOR ATTACKING THEM AND NOTHING WE DO IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT OR MAKE ANY OF THE MILLION WE GENOCIDE (THATS RIGHT I SAID GENOCIDE) is going to bring them back to life.

If you want to talk about soldiers dying in Vain THAT WHOLE DAMN WAR IS IN VAIN!

Got it yet??"??"?


- Con

Originally posted by BlueRaja
What about the ones that were killed by their fellow man, or that are helping the US rid their country of these folks because they're tired of the violence?

Your point is futile IMO. The insurgents wouldn't be fighting in the first place if it wasn't for us, so saying "if they were an insergent, of course they are more likely to have a violent death" is BS. How about: If we weren't there to begin with, then there would be no insurgents.

Plus, the Iraqi on Iraqi violence wouldn't be happening either if it wasn't for our presence.

[edit on 1/30/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by BlueRaja
The problem with surveys like that is that they don't account for a lot of variables.

Yeah like the Body Count in 3 of the most violent areas.

The research covered 15 of Iraq's 18 provinces. Those that not covered included two of Iraq's more volatile regions -- Kerbala and Anbar -- and the northern province of Arbil, where local authorities refused them a permit to work.

Or the entirety of the combat in Afghanistan... There are rumors of a new Spring Offensive by the Taliban and the US has upped the numbers there for an expected ongoing conflict.
My god over a million people, just to hang one man?

Just one example that comes to mind is the interpretors we used. Their families couldn't even know that they were helping us, because the insurgents would kill them as well as the interpretor if they found out.

Other examples would be neighborhood watches where locals let insurgents know in no uncertain terms that they'd be killed on sight, and in many cases were. Insurgents would use their neighborhoods to fire mortars and rockets against US forces, which would result in counterbattery fire(which as you can imagine isn't pleasant if it's your neighborhood). The residents got tired of it, and started killing insurgents whenever they saw them trying to stage attacks.

Another example is the tips lines which have been very effective. Locals would report locations of arms caches, who the insurgents were, their bases of operations/safe houses, etc...

Yet another example is the droves of Iraqis who joined the Army and Police forces, even when many of them were being murdered by insurgents, because they wanted a better Iraq for their families.

Al Anbar province today is a prime example. Prior to the surge, it was by far the absolute worst area of Iraq, and had all but been written off by the US and the Iraqis. Now it's one of the safest areas in Iraq.

Originally posted by twitchy
My god over a million people, just to hang one man?

Don't let them fool you into thinking that is the reason we are there.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Just one example that comes to mind is the interpretors we used. Their families couldn't even know that they were helping us, because the insurgents would kill them as well as the interpretor if they found out.

Hmmm...you said it right there. "Helping us". If we weren't there to begin with, this violence wouldn't exist.

Other examples would be neighborhood watches where locals let insurgents know in no uncertain terms that they'd be killed on sight, and in many cases were. Insurgents would use their neighborhoods to fire mortars and rockets against US forces, which would result in counterbattery fire(which as you can imagine isn't pleasant if it's your neighborhood). The residents got tired of it, and started killing insurgents whenever they saw them trying to stage attacks.

Again. Simple solution. No US occupation....no insurgency. Boy, that's a tough one to figure out.

Another example is the tips lines which have been very effective. Locals would report locations of arms caches, who the insurgents were, their bases of operations/safe houses, etc...

And this changes the fact that all this wouldn't be happening if we weren't there?