exposing the arrogance of the false church

reply to post by FlyersFan

That covers every one of the 2 billion Christians on the planet.

EVERY church needs a physical head of the church on earth - to take care of the earthly needs. (get a building built, pay the bills, etc etc)

NO ONE on earth walks 'exactly' as Christ walked. No one.

So - according to your definition - everyone is a false christian and are in false churches???

you obviously only read one post and not all of mine in this thread so read again!

MajorMalfunction has a different opinion and is looking for evidence ... he is not ignorant for having a different opinion and he is not ignorant for wanting evidence to support the proposition that God became man.

Majormalfunction is not looking for evidence. If he were, he would have further engage in intelligent conversations and not left after taking one sentence shots. He doesn't have to take my word for it either there is mountains of evidence to siff through all over the net and in great books. He is content not knowing what he does not know, because he believes he's got it all figured out.

Originally posted by Graystar
My definition of the true church is any believers gathered together in Jesus Name. Unfortunately most churches in America are disqualified from this.

Except your definition of Church is wrong, I agree with the 2nd sentence.

Originally posted by Graystar
Why you ask? Because they are not there for the master but rather what they think they can get from the master's table. You are from SE Europe but I actually live here. What you will find in most of these churches here are any thing but Christ serving. If you think that I'm being judgemental perhaps you should sit in on one of our services.

O, I trust you, I read about televangelism and how individuals became very rich.

Originally posted by Graystar
On the other hand if You would like to see what a real church looks like take a trip to Kenya; here you will see what real believers look like. Anyone can look like a christian when times are good, but try the American churches by such fire and see just how many believers remain!!

Check this: www.ocmc.org...
www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org...
And from Wiki:

In the 1950s, however, the Orthodox Church in Kenya suffered severe oppression at the hands of the British colonial authorities. Most of the clergy were put in concentration camps, and churches and schools were closed.

Originally posted by Graystar
Ask yourself this honest question: At what point did the preaching of the gospel warrent a 30 million dollar private jet. Or, at what point did preachers feel that they needed to spend 10 grand a night in Hotels around the world while they wer running crusades? Jesus Christ sent the deciples out to preach with out extra shoes or money and look what they accomplished! So many christians around the world live in deplorable conditions? Could you live like these preachers knowing that your brothers and sisters are living in slums?

Well, in USA is everything about economy, so I’m not surprised.

Originally posted by Graystar
Organized churches live richly while the true church of christ live under deaths shadow. This is what paul ment when he said:

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Hebrews 12:4

True Church of Christ doesn’t live under deaths shadow.

Originally posted by Graystar
The people who spoke out about what they saw wrong in churhes in the distant past all suffered the sme accusations. But I ask you, who are you not to seek the truth, to uncover fraud, and to expose the lie. you are weak if you take the path of least resistance. Cowards will share the same fate as those who prostitute this "gospel of riches" lie; not speaking out against it is just asevil as doing it! In the same way those who know of abuse going on in any church but chose to hush it up are as guilty as the perpetrator. But who am I to expose a pedifile if it doesn't affect me right? But who am I to expose a thief in the pulpit so long as it does not affect my wallot? Why don't we all just go to sleep right now?!

May I ask you something? Are you baptized? If answer is positive, I ask in what Church?

Originally posted by Graystar
Every single church, every single person who believes that it is ok to lie on a bed of roses while millions wonder each day if they will eat at all.

Sorry, but paradise [perfect world] on Earth is impossible.

Originally posted by Graystar
Millions of desperate people seek out the crusades of Benny Hinn each time he comes to their city. Those who truely need healing are forced to the back while those with headaches are ushered to the stage. Yet day after day his ministry recieves millions of dollars from these poor disillusioned people; this is wrong. I will speak out against it no matter what names I am called.

I read first time about Benny Hinn now. Ok, I checked in Wiki. His work is disgusting.


[edit on 10-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

reply to post by Vojvoda

Except your definition of Church is wrong, I agree with the 2nd sentence.

Im not sure what you mean by my definition is wrong. the church started out as a gathering of believers in homes. there was never any need to improve this, but man always has to tamper with things. buildings and material assets just complicate things. Agian I would point the fact that Jesus sent his Disciples out empty handed and they changed the world. some where along the way we thought that a 20 million dollar jet plane was needed to get the job done.

True Church of Christ doesn’t live under deaths shadow.

I'm not saying they live in fear of death. I'm making a distinction between goats and sheep. Here see what I mean:


Ezekiel 34 (King James Version)

17And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

18Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

19And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

May I ask you something? Are you baptized? If answer is positive, I ask in what Church?

I was rescued by Jesus Christ at the age of 14, this in itself is a long story. But to answer your Question, no I have not been baptized, But then again neither was the thief that accepted Jesus on the cross, Nor any other old testament person who believed in the Son of God. My Salvation depends on Christ not any work that I can do. My Baptisim will come with my death when American Christians enter in to their tribulation very soon.

Sorry, but paradise [perfect world] on Earth is impossible.

I'm not esposing perfection on earth Im exposing the lie which masquerades as the truth, those who hide behind stain glass windows and fancy suits, who sprinkle their words with the name of Jesus and who devour the Poor, the weak, and the sick.

James 2 (King James Version)
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Im not sure what you mean by my definition is wrong.

We’ll talk about it, but not now.

the church started out as a gathering of believers in homes. there was never any need to improve this, but man always has to tamper with things. buildings and material assets just complicate things. Agian I would point the fact that Jesus sent his Disciples out empty handed and they changed the world.

Of course first Christians gathered at homes. It was impossible to build temples as Roman Empire forbidden and persecuted Christians. Christian communities were proclaimed collegium illicitum (forbidden society) by Empire. And don’t forget catacombs. First temples were probably built in period 260-268 as Emperor Gallienus allowed it. But in Diocletian period, they were all destroyed (303-304), so we don’t know how they looked.
The same happened in XX in Eastern Europe after communism rose. In my country it wasn’t forbidden to enter in Church but you were then counted as state enemy and you could have problems with secret police, could lost job [which provided state] and etc. Neither was allowed build of the new churches. Most Christians gathered at home. In Russia was like in period of Roman Empire.
Things changed when Christianity wasn’t any more forbidden and persecuted in Roman Empire. But that’s another topic.

some where along the way we thought that a 20 million dollar jet plane was needed to get the job done.+

This is not ok. I agree.

I was rescued by Jesus Christ at the age of 14, this in itself is a long story. But to answer your Question, no I have not been baptized,

Sorry, but there is no salvation without being baptized. If you are not baptized you can’t consider yourself as a Christian.

My Salvation depends on Christ not any work that I can do.

This is wrong. Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

My Baptisim will come with my death when American Christians enter in to their tribulation very soon.

What?

I'm not esposing perfection on earth Im exposing the lie which masquerades as the truth, those who hide behind stain glass windows and fancy suits, who sprinkle their words with the name of Jesus and who devour the Poor, the weak, and the sick.

You need first to baptize and then you can start ‘exposing’ things.
I mean, why should Protestants care for the poor, the weak, and the sick when they teach and you believe that good works are irrelevant for salvation? You contradict yourself [your words: my Salvation depends on Christ not any work that I can do]. :shk:

P.S.
More about Kenya:
Orthodox Christians face violence following contested Presidential Elections in Kenya



[edit on 11-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

reply to post by Vojvoda

Sorry, but there is no salvation without being baptized. If you are not baptized you can’t consider yourself as a Christian.

Ultimately we will have to agree to disagree here. In what way was the thief who Excepted Jesus on the cross as he was dying baptized? was he taken down and sprinkled or was he submerged? Was he baptized in Jesus name or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Gost?

Like circumsicion Baptism is an outward exppresion which is suppose to represent somthing that has happened in the heart. The sacrifcial system in the old testament pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ. None of those sacrifices took away sin, they simply pointed to Christ. Circumcision never took away sin it pointed to the real circumcsion of the heart. All thsese out ward things ultimately point to spritual things. the religious leaders in Jesus day accuesed Jesus of breaking the laws of God. The problem was their interpretaion, because they were more concerned with the outward appearances while God sees the heart.

Jesus told the diciples to go baptise all in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Gost. But Peter said in the book of acts be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you will be saved. So what way do we do it? Jesus way or peters way? perhaps both? or are they both eluding to something al ttogether different. you can get baptized all you want in any manner you want but if your heart is not right with God it won't amount to a hill of beans when you stand before him. You won't be able to boast about how you were baptized?

Finally what about all the babies who are aborted every day here in America and around the world, do you think they just cease to exist- not likely: For such is the kingdom of heaven. Who will batize them or will they go to hell since by your definition they cannot be christians?

This is wrong. Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

I think I explained this already: Faith and works are not interchangeable. Some are not saved through faith in Christ while otheres are saved by doing what the law says or by works. We are saved unto good works, meaning that if Christ spirit dwells in you, you will want to do good works. This is what it means when it says that faith with out works is dead. It does not mean that your works save you. But ultimately we will disagree with each other and that is ok. My Faith is in Jesus and I do want to do good things for him. I don't however feel obligated to do it as if it will some how make my salvation more sure.


quote: what?



Tribulation is Coming to America we will not escape it don't think you gonna leave this world before your tried in the fire. America is one of the luckiest places to live in the world because of it's tremendous freedoms. That Freedom is rapidly eroding into a prison state. The Bible plainly stated that all nations will hate believers in Christ and that all who live Godly in christ will suffer persecution. America is not the exception we christians who live here will also face the same life threatening situations that many believers face in other parts of the world today. You don't have to believe this at all, but that won't stop it from happenning. May be I wll survive until Christ comes but maybe I won't.

You need first to baptize and then you can start ‘exposing’ things.
I mean, why should Protestants care for the poor, the weak, and the sick when they teach and you believe that good works are irrelevant for salvation? You contradict yourself [your words: my Salvation depends on Christ not any work that I can do].

Who said I was prtestant I'm not any thing nothing at all! What was Peter? what were any of the diciples? They were jewish. they were followers of Jesus Christ. I am a follower of Jesus Christ Born of the Spirit brought back from the dead having my eyes opend by the holy spirit and not a list of formulas. Agreeing to disagree!



[edit on 13-1-2008 by Graystar]

[edit on 13-1-2008 by Graystar]

Originally posted by Vojvoda

Of course first Christians gathered at homes. It was impossible to build temples as Roman Empire forbidden and persecuted Christians. Christian communities were proclaimed collegium illicitum (forbidden society) by Empire. And don’t forget catacombs.

First temples were probably built in period 260-268 as Emperor Gallienus allowed it. But in Diocletian period, they were all destroyed (303-304), so we don’t know how they looked.
The same happened in XX in Eastern Europe after communism rose. In my country it wasn’t forbidden to enter in Church but you were then counted as state enemy and you could have problems with secret police, could lost job [which provided state] and etc. Neither was allowed build of the new churches. Most Christians gathered at home. In Russia was like in period of Roman Empire.
Things changed when Christianity wasn’t any more forbidden and persecuted in Roman Empire. But that’s another topic.

The Bible plainly says that you have no need that any man should teach you because we have the Holy spirit living inside us to do that. So why tell me do I need to go to church to be taught? I can read and I can uderstand what the Bible says. Jesus gave two commands: love God and love others as your self this is how then you fufill all the law and the commands. Paul said let us not forsake the gathering of our selves to gether not for the sake of being taught by one person : they gathered to proclaim the gospel to show love to each other so that the non believers would become intrigued and would want to follow christ because of this love. That love, and that compassion, for non believers is virtually non-existant in "organized churches" today. Most people who attend these places are just going through the routine of worship and they don't really care about anything out side the little spere of influence. They are mor concerned about who's playin g in the big game Do you know of any church where people come together simply to worship God? Are there any churches out there who simply declare the gospel with out all the hodge podge. No body should be turning a profit from preaching, no body should be make a living by preaching. None of the diciples did nor should anyone today period!

one final note on Baptism: if I were to be Baptized which of the following would ensure my salvation if they do it?baptize me now?


[edit on 13-1-2008 by Graystar]

[edit on 13-1-2008 by Graystar]

I hope you understand from so far that I am Orthodox Christian. So, I don’t talk and write from my head, but how our Holy Church teaches.

Originally posted by Graystar
Who said I was prtestant I'm not any thing nothing at all!

Yes you are, as you accept Sola scriptura principle. Any Christian who accepts it is by definition Protestant. No matter how Protestants are different, that’s the same to all including you.
I guess – you were member of some church, you disappointed and continued to live outside church.
Peace.

Originally posted by Graystar
What was Peter? what were any of the diciples? They were jewish. they were followers of Jesus

They were Jews by nationality and Christians by religion.

Originally posted by Graystar
Ultimately we will have to agree to disagree here. In what way was the thief who Excepted Jesus on the cross as he was dying baptized? was he taken down and sprinkled or was he submerged? Was he baptized in Jesus name or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Gost?

Now your weak reason [or should I say common sense] is trying to justify why you didn’t baptize. You know how it is called in psychology?
I just knew that you will ask about thief on cross. Thief’s case is the special one. Using similar logic, people doesn’t even have to hear for Gospels and Christ words as they will be saved like thief on cross.
Just left absurdity for a while (Luke 23:41):
- We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve.
You see, he confessed his sin!
- But this man has done nothing wrong.
And then he repented them.
That’s why he was saved, but please, everybody who heard Christ words [Gospels] and didn’t baptize they can’t be saved.
Let us talk about it.

First of all Jesus Christ was baptized – Matthew 3:13-17.
13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" 15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. 16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Christ didn’t baptize anybody, but that did his disciples – John 4:1-2.
1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
What were the last commands by Christ – Matthew 28:18?
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
What Our Lord said more – Mark 16:16 [basically the same as Matthew above]?
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Even more – John 3:5.
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born in water means baptize and born in Spirit means chrismation. In Orthodox Church when one is baptized he is baptized both by water [baptism – 1st Holy Mystery] and Spirit [chrismation – 2nd Holy Mystery] just like Our Lord said in John 3:5.

There are so many references in Acts and Epistles that I think there is no need to write them all.

Originally posted by Graystar
Jesus told the diciples to go baptise all in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Gost. But Peter said in the book of acts be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you will be saved. So what way do we do it? Jesus way or peters way? perhaps both? or are they both eluding to something al ttogether different.

Please, there is no Jesus or Peter way. Read above.

Originally posted by Graystar
you can get baptized all you want in any manner you want but if your heart is not right with God it won't amount to a hill of beans when you stand before him. You won't be able to boast about how you were baptized?

I am pretty sure you were member of some church; I know that some sects teach like that. And you still believe in that. :shk:
Please, John the Baptist baptized Our Lord, and disciples baptized people. Disciples even baptized whole families:
Acts 16:14-15
14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.
Acts 16:33
33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.
Acts 18:8
Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.

There are more examples, but there’s no need.

Originally posted by Graystar
Finally what about all the babies who are aborted every day here in America and around the world, do you think they just cease to exist- not likely: For such is the kingdom of heaven. Who will batize them or will they go to hell since by your definition they cannot be christians?

You answered yourself: they automatically go into the Heaven as they are murdered.

The rest tomorrow.

Originally posted by Graystar
one final note on Baptism: if I were to be Baptized which of the following would ensure my salvation if they do it?baptize me now?

None of them. You have U2U.

[edit on 15-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

It is because of the utter nonsence and utter coruption found in the churches today that Jesus' name is so abbhorred.

Jesus' name is abhorred? Really? By who? Criticizing the "church" and what it claims to be true is not the same as abhorring Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Graystar
First let me define what I mean by false church. It is any denomination, Pastor, priest or person who does not hold firmly to the head which is Christ. Furthermore it is any denomination, Pastor, priest or person that does not walk exactly as Christ walked. Finally, it is any denomination, Pastor, priest or person who does not bare in their bodies the marks of crucification as clairified by Christ when he said "take up you cross and follow me."Having said that please allow me to further define my reason for starting this post. Quite frankly I am tired of Christians being painted with such a broad brush i.e we are all fakes and liers-hypocrites. As I,ve stated above, if you are calling your self a Christian and you do not meet the standard set above, then you are indeed a Hypocrite and a liar. It is because of the utter nonsence and utter coruption found in the churches today that Jesus' name is so abbhorred. We are warned that this would be the case all through out the new testemant that this would be the case. Unfortunately becasue this is so, many will never find Jesus, nor will they ever even crack a Bible to determine whether I am speaking the truth.

Here is a problem with your statement. We all are sinners we all on a dayly basis do something God would not want. Jesus didnt come for good people, he came here for sinners. Second who are you to decide who is saved and what church is damned. Any church you go to will have saved ones and damned ones. (Even the devil goes to church) Every christian church has a wrong belief.

This is what I say about christian religion. Watch out for them. The churches would teach what they want you to believe over the bible. People grow up in church and they believe what they where learn from the start. Bible is the word of God not the preacher, Or christian religion.

[edit on 15-1-2008 by slymattb]