JFK -Irrefutable Proof- the driver did not shoot Kennedy.

Originally posted by Nola213
However the problem is the bullet was a mangled mess, and broke up. Nothing like the "near" pristine bullet they found on the stretcher that was supposed to do all that damage.

The bullet was not pristine after it did it's damage, Nola, it was flattened sideways. Kennedy's neck was only about four inches of soft tissue. Experiments showed that a similar (or, more likely, indentical) bullet, when passing through simulated flesh, emerged with a yaw, or wobble. This accounts for the elongated entry wound in Connolly's back. It then struck his rib and wrist sideways, resulting in the compression of the bullet which was made less severe because of it's significant loss in velocity with each impact.

Also there are more shots than they can account for from Oswald. The one that hit Kenedy in the back of the neck passing through his throat, then doing all sorts of damage to Connely, breaking a rib, and fracturing his wrist, ending up in his thigh I believe(1),

That was actually the second bullet fired.

the Headshot(2),

The third and final shot.

a miss hitting the curb(3), another miss grazing an onlookers face(4),

Those were caused by the same bullet, which was the first shot fired.

This was where the Warren Commission goofed. They thought that the curb/bystander (I believe his name was James Tige?) shot was the second shot. This suggested that Oswald got off three shots in six seconds and that almost immediately got people buzzing about a cover-up.

and one last miss, leaving a bullet hole at the top frame of the windshield(5).

That was caused by fragments from the third shot.

Incidentally, thanks for linking to that video about the Zapruder film being altered. Most of it's presentation is absurd on it's face. (I actually laughed out load when the narrator explained that the lamp post should move against the background when Zapruder -- standing still -- moved his camera.) Really, that video is hilarious in it's faulty logic.

The one interesting thing was when it pointed out that the bystanders were super blurry while their shadows are extra sharp. It's probably an artifact of the film stretching unevenly as it was reeled through the vintage 8mm camera. Interesting observation, though.

reply to post by Nola213


OK kid, I was alive during "Camelot", not as great of president as history paints him. In fact in today’s time period he would have been impeached for leaking information to both KGB and Syndicate prostitutes. As for Bobby it is clear he was shot up by the security guard behind him. Perhaps someone didn’t like the way he stopped air support for the “Bay of Pigs, Invasion”. Maybe they didn’t like how the Kennedy family sheltered Irish Syndicates.
Regardless Henry Cabot Lodge had all he could take of JFK’s continuous interference with Diem’s assassination in “South” Vietnam.
Isn’t it odd the hit was three weeks to the day of the Diem assassination? Well it would have been two weeks if Kennedy had stayed on schedule and went to Miami. He was eating cortisone, uppers, downers, pain pills and injecting speed so don’t place John on any pedestal. He was a kid in a candy store and he was having a hard time keeping his hands in his pockets. But he did have the good since to form the USNSEALS too bad he didn’t use them to scope out Dallas they would have scared up the “spooks” (CIA) around the rail road. The FBI were happy to supply mopping teams for clean up.
Anyway, kid the guy that pulled the trigger the most was a Marine sniper, Ray B., and yes he was dressed in a guard uniform that looked a lot like a Dallas cop’s. I can’t think of many people in US intelligence that wasn’t happy at the time to see JFK go away. Times really change. I read about a year after his assassination that of the 17 eye witnesses that came forward all were dead within nine months, one with a karate chop to the throat most by exploding water heaters. Many reported the fire came from the area near the rest rooms now called the “grassy knoll”. Let’s just put this behind us and move on.

Originally posted by Comforter
reply to post by Nola213

 

OK kid,

thanks for the compliment, here at 33 years old, I thought I was middle aged.

-oh, and btw paragraphs are your friend.

And yes (TuningSpork), most of that zapruder film fakery is really reaching, the lampost cutout is a terrible mistake on the author of that films part. I guess he doesn't know ot never seen "no parking" signs attacked to poles with metal straps which clearly that was.

But his overall presentation was pretty good, and the video is worth a look, imo.

But please let's stay on topic, the Limo driver, Gun or no gun? I just wanna bury that theory for good, it's so absurd.

Originally posted by Nola213
But please let's stay on topic, the Limo driver, Gun or no gun? I just wanna bury that theory for good, it's so absurd.

No gun. And it's a travesty that Greer had to live the rest of his life with not only the guilty feeling of having made a fatal mistake, but that he'd actually been unfairly impugned as a co-conspirator by over-zealous conspiracy theorists.

Looks to me like all he did was brake to look back to see what was happening. Something that any safe driver would instinctively do. And for that he and his family have to deal with this rot.

Very pleased to know that Jim Marrs also dismisses the "driver-shot-Kennedy" nonsense.

reply to post by Tuning Spork



Thank you, and as far as the "near pristine bullet, you kinda refreshed my memory about that show I watched, when you said the bullet "tumbled".

Now after thinking harder about this show I saw, I think the bullet ended up bouncing of the material they use to simulate human flesh (name escapes me), anyhow it bounced off the last piece they had set up that was representing Connely's thigh, and the recovered bullet wasn't fragmented, it was a bit more flattened than the stretcher bullet, but very close in comparison.

That would make sense, as it merely fractured Connolly's jacketed wrist bone. A "bounce" in a controlled experiment wouldn't surprise me.

sorry for my earlier comment..I do see about the light reflecting off of
the passengers head and it does moves the same as the alleged arm coming up............wow

I'm not convinced.
In the second link by the OP, third video down, is that supposed to be a reflection that points up to Greers face/eye? It does not look like a forehead or reflection to me. What is it?

Second video down (better version). After the Greer turns around to drive off, what is the flash/reflection (hand?/gun?) that appears from the front of Greer's head and passed very quickly towards the steering wheel or dashboard?

Apparently there were many witnesses.

1. Mary Moorman - school teacher standing next to Jean Hill. She said she saw Greer shooting back but thought he was shooting back at the assassin. SOURCE: Warren Commission and taped interview by Fred Newcomb.

2. Jean Hill - Jean Hill saw what happened too, but when she tried to bring up the subject of a gun being fired in the car, Senator Arlen Spector (a 33rd degree Mason) would change the subject or say "it's time for a cup of coffee."


3. Austin P. Miller - Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau, who stood on the railway overpass overlooking Elm Street was asked by Arlen Spector where the shots came from: His reply was "from right there in the car." Senator Spector just went on to the next question, never asking Miller any specifics. From: Warren Report, New York Times edition, p. 82.


4. Clinton J. Hill. Jacqueline Kennedy's bodyguard reports in Vol. II, pp 138-139 of the Warren Commission Volumes: "I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, and ran to the presidential limousine. Just as I reached it, there was another sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object...it seemed to have some type of echo."


5. Hugh Betzner - Had picture published in Life magazine and was standing right next to the drivers side of the motorcade: He saw a gun in the hand of one of the secret service agents and heard a sound "like firecrackers going off in the car."Link to Betzner’s official statement: www.jfk-online.com... Source: taped interview with Fred Newcomb.

6. Senator Ralph Yarborough - 3rd car back "Smelled gunpowder in the car." (statement made to press but not to Warren Commission) He was challenged by Newcomb on the phone and he then said "I must have smelled it coming down from the book depository" ....

.....A retired Arroyo Grande police officer, Darrell Puckett, asked his firing range instructor if it was true that the limousine driver shot JFK. The instructor replied: "It is common knowledge in military circles that Greer shot Kennedy."


A woman named "Amy" who I know, had a uncle who was in the CIA and he told her as a child that it was Greer who shot Kennedy. Thoughout the years she noted white vans parked near her house. There were suspicions about the untimely death of her uncle as well. ED NOTE: Often while I was chatting with Amy in the back parking lot behind DaVinci’s, I would notice single helicopters hovering just behind the auto body shop behind our restaurant. I later confirmed the chopper sighting with Amy.


A man visiting in San Luis Obispo where I live was known to be a neighbor of one of Gov. Connally’s golf partners. He was given a copy of "Dallas Revisited" to show to Connally’s golf partner. In Texas, after seeing the video, he replied "so now you know," and left without another word.


A caller to the Art Bell show wanted to speak privately to Art about something special. Art said that he only handles callers on the air. So, the man told of a death bed confession from a Uncle who was in the Military....that Greer had shot Kennedy. Art replied: "That’s old stuff sir, that’s old stuff." ....

community-2.webtv.net...

I am reading an old paperback by a guy named Lifton, who spent 15 years researching the Kennedy assassination, and who found proof that the body was altered, hidden, transported seperately from the one shown on TV, and adapted before the autopsy to make it plausable that the shots had come from the rear. Its called ' The Best Evidence ' I believe, and I would recommend it to anyone who wants to know what the people on the scnene reported, and how the switches took place and where.

BUT, it is plain and clear to me that the driver turns and with his left hand crosses his body and brings what appears to be a flat automatic pisto up to his right shoulder and poinyt it at the President just at the exact moment that the major head would occurs. That could be coincidental, as I stated before. If the main job was over, no need for the fall back guy to execute his mission. Greer no doubt was taked to make sure that the Pres. was fatally wounded before they left the area and the gunshots sounding and the confusion going on.

I have looked at this many times, and I see the hairline of that greasy Feds with enough Brylcreem on his noggin to glue a battleship together shining in the sunlight; but do not let that distract you from the driver, and his motion of bringing his LEFT arm across his body to his right and extendingh his arm up to his shoulder level with some 'object ' in it.

Watch the drivers motions about 20-30 times.. I am serious.It is the only way to pick up on minor details .You know how when you watch a movie you really like, and see it a bunch of times, you always manage to see some new thing every time you see it..right? Know what I mean? It is common. Well, it is the same thing here. Watch the videos, slow them down, whatever. But do NOT watch those silly video's that are supposed to refute the driver shot the Pres. story, but when you watch it, they stop the film way before the right time!! They freeze the camera frames as if Kennedy is being shot the second time and he is not ! It is too early in the sequence to be valid and so they trick many people into thinking they are right when they are quite wrong.

We see the Driver.Greer, move his left arm over accross his left side and across the right sideof his body and bring the left arm up to a point where it was pointing at the presidents' head. It appeared that a shiny flat automatic pistol was in Greers left hand that exact and brief moment; whether he used it or not is a matter of some conjecture. Many close witnesses swear that gunshots were heard comingh from the car itself..others claim the same with minor variations as to what direction they came from, etc. but many people know very well that what happened that darek day in 1963 when I was just a 12 year old lad in 7th grade living in Miami Florida, which was almost a paradise back then, for some at least.

Our biggest worries were the Cubn Missles that were constantly being shoved down our throats..we had to hide under school desks, as if a 50 kiloton bomb hitting Miami would allow for any schools to be standing after a nuke blast. Most likley, the kid and the chairs and the classroom would all form a kind of dirty cloud that would be sucked many thousands of feet into the upper atmosphere amnd be seen as a ' mushroom cloud ' the typical formation of the type used for large deliveries. I recall one night when being tucked into bed by my Dad, a Cop off to work, if he thought we were safe from getting nuked. He told me that he just didn't know..he hoped not and prayed not to allow that to happen but no one knows if it was the prayers said in belief that made a difference, or the threat Kennedy made to Kruschev to blockade as many nations as needed until the aggressors saw the light of cooperation.

KEEP looking at these films and you will , after a while, begin to see the smooothness of the motion of Greer: The flow from his left hand down low on his left side. Then at the first sound of shots he brings his arm around his body to the right side and extends hi arm up to the top of his shoulder. Again, at that exacvt moment, the Presidents head explodes. Can I say that the driver shot JFK? NO. Why? Because I cannot see any smoke from the gun or a recoil and lesser than expected results from bystanders had that been the case.

On the other hand , Greer may have simply been ready and having seen the results of the previous shots decided that his would not add enough to the story to help them and it could cause problems iof it ever got out. So he simply put the gun away and nothing ever comes of it. If it was fired, then no wonder Jackie tried to flee that limo; if she heard a gunshot within the car she would waste no time in getting as far away from it as possible, even if that meant crawling off the deack of a speeding car. Recall that the Secret Security chief ordered the men off the limo and away from the rear positions? just before the shots were fired. pretty obviously a set up.

reply to post by eyewitness86


Then we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think it's obvious, to me at least, that Greer's left hand may come off the wheel as he looks back, but his arm is not raised, what your seeing is the far curb and or top driverside door making the straight edge "appearing" to be an extended arm. Then the passengers forehead "appearing to be a clenched fist. and his shiny black and grey hair, lit buy the sun "appearing" to be a weapon.

It's all of these things fooling your eyes, Eyewitness. :p

Just watch the VERY FIRST video I posted. That is one frame, 1/17th of a second before the fatal headshot, are you SERIOUSLY telling me you see a gun in Greers hand in the first video?? A simple yes or no will suffice.

If yes, I believe either your vision is poor or your just trolling me here for the heck of it. *shrug*

If no (which it's obvious there is no gun present in that first film), Greer did not deliver the fatal headshot, IT IS as simple as that.



[edit on 6-1-2008 by Nola213]

reply to post by Nola213


Shortly after the assassination my father introduced me to the Secret Service Lead that protected JFK. He was a red haired Irish cop type that had a photo of him with John drinking beers together over his pool table. I have also known other Treasury and Secret Service agents and managers since that time that were involved with Presidential protection. From my experience the only way any Secret Service member had a gun drawn in film or photos of the Kennedy assassination is 1) if he drew it on that feeling you do get from body guarding (been there) OR 2) it was a doctored shot long after the event.
The photo of the red haired hobo that was arrested in Dallas on that day has absolutely changed some time after the event.
I am certain no Secret Service member ever allowed harm much less intended any to a President. In JFK’s case the CIA had warned him that he was “Commander and Chief of the uniformed service, Sir”. The FBI did not like him for his involvement with aspects of organized crime. But no way was the Secret Service (i.e. his driver) involved. Besides no assassin worth a buck would shoot a politician in a convertible in front of a crowd, not in the USA of the 60’s. Maybe in twenty first century of Pakistan but even then he should not expect to live through it. The concept has no merit that I can see. Besides I’ve already told how JFK really was assassinated.
I think this one can be put to rest and yeah a mear 33 year old is a kid to me but you seem like a smart one.

reply to post by Comforter


ok so that's another NO, for the driver shooting Kennedy then?

btw you seem to know your stuff. Yes I know Kennedy wasn't the cleanest man, affairs with MM, drugs ect, but I was just reffering to the fact that my parents conveyed to me about how much he was loved when he was president.

I believe though, many of those peoples opinions of the man changed after his sortid affairs were made public. I know my father thinks he was a terrible person for cheating on his wife. My Mother however still talks about JFK and how awful she felt the day he died, and she can remember exactly where she was ect, when it happened.

I mean I'm not claiming to know exactly what happened, , however I do believe the headshot was clearly from the front right (the grassy noll) by the way Kennedy's body, and head reactes to the impact of the shot.

Did Oswald fire any shots? was he just a patsy, i don't know. I believe this was expert marksmen like you said, perhaps dressed like local police.

But Oswald did kill that cop a few blocks away from the scene. Officer Tibbet I think his name was, thats off the top of my head. Excuse me if I'm wrong. Then he ran into that movie theatre, so it seems he was involved.

Also he did take a shot earlier at another political figure and missed him, shooting at the man in his house, through a window. So he was out to kill someone.

But one think I know for sure is Greer did not brandish a weapon or fire a weapon that can be seen on any film from that day.

reply to post by Nola213


NO, it is NOT the curb or the car..I see the drivers ARM move from left
to right and up to shoulder level. It is inside the car, not the curb for God's sake..thats not even possible. One would need Xray vision to see the curb of the street from that angle. No, the driver whips out a pistol and gets ready to fire, just as Kennedys head explodes. Maybe coincidence, not sayiong it couldn't be, but maybe not.

recall the Secret Service head agent calling the protectors away from the limo? Couple that with the driver and a few dozen other anomalies and one can see where it might be possible. Not certain, but possible. The films are not conclusive either way.

The title of this thread is misleading: It is still a metter of opinion, not anywhere near settled.

reply to post by eyewitness86


OK, you still have NOT answered my simple question which can put this entrire thing to rest.

Do you, or do you not see a gun in the first video I posted?

again, because that is 1 frame before the fatal headshot.

Yes or No. Stop tip toeing around it man.

Tell me you see a gun in that first extended Sceenshot blow up video. Circle it for me ok? I will wait while you ponder whether or not to circle the passengers hair.




-BTW , yes I can see the far side curb in that first video, as well as the top of the drivers side door frame. Man you are truely blind, and your sceen name does NOT become you.



[edit on 7-1-2008 by Nola213]

Originally posted by Maya432
sorry for my earlier comment..I do see about the light reflecting off of
the passengers head and it does moves the same as the alleged arm coming up............wow

No problem, no apology neccessary(sp?), I was tricked by this as well when I watched it in the Zapruder film in real time the first 5 or 6 times. It is easy to make the mistake, many have. Just like eyewitness here. But it takes a big person to admit they are wrong.

But i knew something looked a little wrong with it, so I watched it a few more times. I watched and paused the crap out of the Zapruder, then finally realized what I thought I was seeing wasn't there, and just a trick of light and shadow. I had to admit to "myself" at that point I had been wrong, if only for an hour or so, and that my eyes were fooled as many other's have been by this whole Limo driver did it nonsense.


Well, it seems your on an island alone now, Eyewitness86. Again show US all where the gun is in the first video.

Here I'll explain to you how to do it below, just in case you don't know (not trying to belittle you, some people aren't that computer savy, I am definitely one of them, I can't do jack in PS or MS paint besides circles things or crop a photo ect.

Anyhow, here's how you go about it--

Useing the first video, since we've all agreed it is 1 frame (frame 312 to be exact), roughly 1/17th of a second before the headshot(frame 313).

Here is the same frame except not blown up:

www.assassinationresearch.com...

Now I can understand at first glance how a person can be fooled by this. But clearly when blown up like in the first video I posted of this same frame, it's easy to seperate the real from your imagination. Even in the above picture you can see the drivers left hand just under the steering wheel, as he took it off momentarily to turn around to see what had happened.

But for maximum clarity, lets use this enlarged picture here:

www.youtube.com...

Now play the above link, which is just a panning of the same frame as above (frame 312), only enlarged so we can see things clearer.

Now pause the video when you see this gun. Now hit Print Sceen screen button on your keyboard. Then open up Photoshop, or MS paint, and open a new file, and press "control V" Save that. Now go in there, and circle the gun for us all in red or yellow or whatever color you like.

Then use imageshack or onfinite. Or qhatever, then throw up a link to your picture showing the gun circled.

I eagerly wait this evidence that will cooberate the story you believe to be true.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by Nola213]

OK I've gone ahead and did my own work on this. Mind you I suck in Photoshop, but I think This will get my point across.

Here is a blow up of just the driver and passenger in frame 312 (again .17 seconds before the head shot)





You can use this Eyewitness.

Now I've gone ahead and put a couple circles and a line dpicting what I believe is the confusion here, look at this image.....





The "red" circle clearly shows the drivers hand down near his lap, I drew the "yellow" line to show the path of his arm from his left shoulder down to his left hand(note his elbow is bent as you would if say you put your left hand on your right thigh.

The "blue" circle, show what I believe people are mistaking for a hand cluthing a gun. But in this blown up still photo, it is obvious it is just the passengers forehead, and his sunlit(greased up) salt and pepper hair.

Case Closed, imo.

Eyewitness86, your welcome to use the first link, which I think you should, to show us all where the supposed gun is.

Good luck

[edit on 7-1-2008 by Nola213]

[edit on 7-1-2008 by Nola213]

The "gun in the drives hand" is probably a walkie talkie going up to his mouth or ear to either report the problem or hear a report..

lay a watermelon on a flat surface, shoot it.. the bullet goes in the front and the expulsion of the bullet leaving the watermelon ( force from the exit, is greater then the force form the entry) -- leaving he watermelon moving in the direction the shot came FROM, not the opposite and making his head follow the direction of the bullet..as so many people are speculating with his head here.

per physics, the bullet is round and sharp entering the skull, leaving the skull it is more flattened and has giving the fragments and mass from the entry wound, with momentum, making the exit wound larger.. Then head rolls back to the left corrosonding with the hole in the back of the head and exiting the front, with a large splash... forcing the head in the oppisite direction..

imho

reply to post by Nola213


Oswald was just a patsy under the belief that he was a gun runner for the real marksman. He was kept in the dark. A fall guy all along and nothing more.

Ray Bellione, on the other hand was a Marine sniper that is highly spoken of by both Marine snipers and Rangers. My story comes from Independent investigators, a Special Ops Ranger (the Boogie Man) who’s life I saved more than once on domestic operations, as well as a Marine sniper (the Sand Man) up to receive the Medal of Honor. All had the same story and name. So I would say that is solid but with no video tape I guess it just isn’t up to the running with these fantasies that are spouted now. It is only the truth and I have found there is always only one truth.
I loved some of JFK’s statements: once after a diner with many heads of states he lifted his glass to toast “Tonight we have entertained some of the greatest thoughts of mankind. With the exception of course of when Jefferson dined alone”.
Robert said to him in the oval office so it is on tape; “You know John if you send air support in this Cuban matter and kill innocent civilians you will ruin not only your political carrier but mine as well.” Well no air support or supply ship was sent. The bay itself was a favorite fishing spot of Fidel Castro. Did you know that?
After the Bay of Pigs JFK said “Success has a thousand fathers but defeat is an orphan.” He was in such pain from Anderson’s disease slowly dissolving his spine. He resorted to relief with drugs and women. However he did not get anything I can think of to be passed by Congress and the Senate.
So tell me would it have been better for him to die in pain that no medication could soften and labeled one of the greatest failures in American history? By making him a martyr his legislation was shortly passed into law and he achieved near Sainthood.

reply to post by Comforter


Show me the gun in the above picture please. That is all I ask.

It's obvious by now you can't. Apparently too stubborn to admit when your wrong. Admitting you were wrong, which I myself and another in this thread have is a sign of of an objective thinker, and personal growth.

If you come to your first conclusion then will NEVER sway from it, you are useful for a discussion of a source of an unknown. God help me, if I'm ever falsely accused of something , and YOU are on my jury panel.

You just wanna keep dancing around that facts that you as well as thousands of people were fooled by the Driver Theory, when first pointed out in the Zapruder film, in regular speed.

But when we look closer (as we should when trying to get to the truth), you either change the topic completely as above, or just don't asnwer at all.

Again once more show me the gun in the above picture (which IS the crux of the Driver shot Kennedy conspiracy). You still haven't because you can't.

Because there is none.

Originally posted by minping
The "gun in the drives hand" is probably a walkie talkie going up to his mouth or ear to either report the problem or hear a report..

lay a watermelon on a flat surface, shoot it.. the bullet goes in the front and the expulsion of the bullet leaving the watermelon ( force from the exit, is greater then the force form the entry) -- leaving he watermelon moving in the direction the shot came FROM, not the opposite and making his head follow the direction of the bullet..as so many people are speculating with his head here.

per physics, the bullet is round and sharp entering the skull, leaving the skull it is more flattened and has giving the fragments and mass from the entry wound, with momentum, making the exit wound larger.. Then head rolls back to the left corresponding with the hole in the back of the head and exiting the front, with a large splash... forcing the head in the opposite direction..

IMHO

What the hell taught you that? your comparing a human SKULL to a watermelon, first and foremost NOTHING ALIKE!

I dont know who killed JFK, I honestly dont believe Oswald was responsible, he could of been affiliated I dont know, but when you really look at Kennedy's last seconds, frame by frame you will notice two things.

One the splatter, I've never seen a watermelon get shot, but I know if you shoot it in one direction, just through the force of physics, the splatter WILL go the same direction, I dont care which way his head bounced. I bet you if you took a look into his car, there would of been brains on the trunk.

Case in point in the video below at exactly 315, just watch the blood splatter. If he were shot from the back, we would see this splatter behind him moving forward before almost vaporizing to the naked eye on camera. I dont see that shot?




Second, look at Jackie's reaction to the fatal shot. Is she protecting him? No, shes ducking for cover, trying to get AWAY from where the shot came from.