The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

Originally posted by apex

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
None of this is as important as the action...

What effects does the destroying of supply lines to concentration camps holding upwards of 250,000 people have - and what actions caused the disruption?

Sounds like they wouldn't ever have had as many as 250,00 there at the same time if you ask me.

The point of your question is of no relavence to the action. You have provided a source saying that 20k are killed a day. That is all - nothing more.

In the end, what is being disputed but the numbers? We could argue the color of the walls, but it is of no consequnce, just as the numbers are of no consequence.

I can provide a source that accounts for around 200,000 in a certain camp:

library.thinkquest.org...

Sachsenhausen

... 200,000 people were in the camp and 100,000 of them ended up dying from disease, exhaustion, and over working in the local factories. A lot of the rest were brought to many other death camps.

I'm sure I can find many other pages that list different numbers for the same camps. We can find many books that list different numbers, and we can hear many testimonies that list different numbers.

The argument of numbers is trivial, and is of no consequnce to the action being discussed. Please refrain from such discussion. We can spend hours pulling up web pages to suit an agenda to defeat the other person in internet debate regarding numbers, but in the end will have not proven anything. This is not what the thread is about.

It should be telling that after two pages of posts, no one has the courage to answer the question of the action:

What effects does the destroying of supply lines to concentration camps holding upwards of 250,000 people have - and what actions caused the disruption?

This is the question.

So in other words, we're supposed to take your Holocaust-denier agenda gibberish at face value?

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
It should be telling that after two pages of posts, no one has the courage to answer the question of the action:
What effects does the destroying of supply lines to concentration camps holding upwards of 250,000 people have - and what actions caused the disruption?
This is the question.

OK then. So, sorry about this, but you are wondering about 250,000 already starving people, in a mass genocide campaign that claimed millions, and you are saying that the 'real' holocaust was created by the allies bombing supply lines, some of which may just possibly have led to a concentration camp?

Right, who was doing the gassing, and the shooting, and the drowning, and the throwing into furnaces, and the putting in freezing water, etc? So why exactly do you claim the Allies were the ones who were most evil and starved them by destroying supply lines?

Not to mention the fact that had the allies not carpet bombed most of Germany, and any other methods they might have used which killed bystanders, the Nazi forces would have been free to take over Britain, Russia, America if they could etc, and gas many millions more.

[sarcasm]No clearly, the allies were in the wrong because they fought back, in the process killing some innocent people. [/sarcasm]

[edit on 25-12-2007 by apex]

Not to mention the fact that the thread starter tries to draw a parallel analogy between US internment of the Nisei Japanese-Americans and the transfer of European Jews to the preexisting concentration camps by the Third Reich and their allies...

The facts that however wrong, racist, and immoral the US internment of the Nisei was, the US was under attack by the Japanese Imperial Empire.

What Jews attacked Germany? Oh yeah, the conspiratorial insidious "attacks" were part of the historical antisemitism that the Nazis incorporated into their propaganda to justify not only the mass killings of Jews after 1941, but of the pre-War "Kristallnacht pogroms of violence against people guilty of nothing, and that contributed much to German culture, economics, and society overall...

[edit on 25/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

[edit on 25/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

Ah, apologies. You lost me at "I have to protect the source of this information." Oh, of course you do.

Fruitcakery of the absolute highest order. Merry Christmas!

Unfortunately I do not think you are a troll. I think you believe what you are saying and that is worrying.

You say you do not accept testimony or paper as proof. Only reality. That is quite bizarre. So what is it that we can put before you that will convince you that the Nazis are soley responsible for the murder of 6m Jews?

You say keep your eye on the ball to find out it's trajectory. How do you propose to do this without the reference of the 'crowd' watching the ball?

What are you using as your source for evidence?

The only red herring seems to be the one you are waving around asking everyone to dismiss decades of verbal and written evidence from survivors and perpetrators.

As for putting satellites in space in the 20's, I think your family member must be putting something in their tea. Our space technology is in its infancy still, what with rockets still failing to put payloads in space.

You never know, one day we may even put a man on the moon.

[edit on 25/12/2007 by skibtz]

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

What effects does the destroying of supply lines to concentration camps holding upwards of 250,000 people have - and what actions caused the disruption?

This is the question.

To answer your question...no effect

You even quoted that of 250k people 100k of them died of over work and disease and the other 150k were shipped off to other DEATH camps. The term death camps means they are going there to die...

So I think your own sources answered this question for you in they were already slated to die by work, disease or DEATH camps. Destroying supply lines do not affect those already ear marked for death for not much of any supplies would get to them even if the lines were in full operation.

Ok, I´m no denier of anything, however when I first started to hear about the "deny the holocaust and you get jail time" thing... well it made me start thinking, if there is nothing to hide, then why silence those who question? And just because someone questions the holocaust, DOESN´T mean it´s going to happen again. So that´s a weak excuse.

Now, for all of you who say that the United States could have NEVER done anything *evil* like this, well look at today. What about Guantanamo? What about every other *camp* out there owned and run by the US? No rights for the inmates, daily beatings... you get the drift.

Now, let´s fastforward to 2068. Islam took over America. (I´m just using Islam as an example, no offense to anyone meant.) Now, we hear all this talk about how evil America was, with their concentration camps (gitmo) and how America killed it´s own citizens through lies and unjust wars. Although that may be the truth, it does´nt stop there!

There are many stories from *Gitmo Survivors* that claim they had been mutilated, beaten on a daily bases, denied food and water, how they were forced to eat pork and pig feces etc.

Now, many many more people suddenly come forward and claim the same. Why? Because this is a way to help keep those wanting the good old America back from getting it. To help shape the old 2007 America into an evil diety that MUST NEVER come back into existance.

History is written by the victors. Most accept it, don´t dare to question it due to the stigma and prison terms associated with it. Those who do try to understand and learn the truth are shunned, and *not compatible with "modern" society.*

Hope you understood the point I´m trying to get at here. It´s easy to over-exaggerate because no one dares to question it. And if you do, the price is heavy.

I don´t know either way. I´m not American nor German. All I can do is think for myself.

Peace,
FK

I have to protect the source of this information. This is not speculation, or opinion. What you are about to read is the truth.

You may have a source, but without evidence your truth is nothing but hearsay.

What about places like Sobibór?

What about places like that? There is no irrefutable proof that Jews were killed there. It was destroyed in early 1940, and for good reason.

Do you mean to say it was destroyed in the 1940's? The Sobibor camp was built in 1942. In April of that year the following took place.

In mid-April 1942 when the camp was nearly completed, experimental gassings took place. About 250 Jews from Krychow forced labour camp were brought there for this purpose. Christian Wirth, the commander of Belzec, arrived in Sobibor to witness these gassings, accompanied by the chemist Dr Karl Blaurock. In May 1942, Sobibor began gassing operations. Trains entered the railway station, and the Jews onboard were told they were in a transit camp, and were forced to undress and hand over their valuables. They were then led into the "Road to Heaven," (Himmelstrasse) which led to the gas chambers, where they were killed using carbon monoxide released from the exhaust pipes of tanks.

source link

The camp was shut down after the escape (on October 14, 1943) of those taken there against there will.

The "offical" death toll at that camp is 250,00. However some survivors of the camp claim the the Nazis celebrated the deaths of at least one million Jews and others at the camp.

I'll stay away from the line about "sat recon". Without proof it's besides the point.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper
Ok, I´m no denier of anything, however when I first started to hear about the "deny the holocaust and you get jail time" thing... well it made me start thinking, if there is nothing to hide, then why silence those who question? And just because someone questions the holocaust, DOESN´T mean it´s going to happen again. So that´s a weak excuse.

But who is "silencing" anything here? The thread still exists. What we've done is "discredited," not silenced. Ain't freedom of speech great?

Now, for all of you who say that the United States could have NEVER done anything *evil* like this, well look at today. What about Guantanamo? What about every other *camp* out there owned and run by the US? No rights for the inmates, daily beatings... you get the drift.

I have no idea what you are referring too. Seriously, I think I am the only openly American poster in this thread and I called the US internment of the Nisei (Japanese-Americans) during WWII racist and immoral --hence it was evil.

No one is apologizing for America or for the Western Allies here...

And seriously, I think GITMO sucks and should be closed. But it's no where near Auschwitz. Not in the numbers interned. Not in the rationale of internment.

Feel free to offer specific comparisons...

Now, let´s fastforward to 2068. Islam took over America. (I´m just using Islam as an example, no offense to anyone meant.) Now, we hear all this talk about how evil America was, with their concentration camps (gitmo) and how America killed it´s own citizens through lies and unjust wars. Although that may be the truth, it does´nt stop there!

So, you mean Germany was a democracy with a reletively free press during WWII?

There are many stories from *Gitmo Survivors* that claim they had been mutilated, beaten on a daily bases, denied food and water, how they were forced to eat pork and pig feces etc.

Yet, unlike the Jews in the concentration camps, the six million people that are the documentable disappeared, they're all still alive...

Now, many many more people suddenly come forward and claim the same. Why? Because this is a way to help keep those wanting the good old America back from getting it. To help shape the old 2007 America into an evil diety that MUST NEVER come back into existance.

History is written by the victors.

Complete crap only recited by beginners and hacks. There is no comparison to the historical record generated by democracies with free presses and totalitarian states with absolute control...

Most accept it, don´t dare to question it due to the stigma and prison terms associated with it.

What "prison terms?" Not in the US.

Those who do try to understand and learn the truth are shunned, and *not compatible with "modern" society.*

"Truth?" Since you like thought experiments, say I raped and murdered your daughter one night. I'm prosecuted for it receiving a life sentence, then I claim that she was kind of a whore that was into erotic-asphyxiation, and that we had consensual sex and I "accidentally" strangled her, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Was history "written by the winners" then?

Hope you understood the point I´m trying to get at here. It´s easy to over-exaggerate because no one dares to question it. And if you do, the price is heavy.

I don´t know either way. I´m not American nor German. All I can do is think for myself.

Peace,
FK

You can question it all you want. The problem, in my years of posting and modding WWII related message boards, I've never seen anyone "question" it who was: not easily dismissed as a clear fascist apologist, from a society with a long history of institutionalized antisemitism, or a blatant Hitler sycophant ie David Irving.

And no, I'm not Jewish...

[edit on 25/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

[edit on 25/12/07 by Nickdfresh]


[edit on 25/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

I have a question that may be relevant (but I'm sure the OP will say it's not) Um how many died before 1944? I'm pretty certain that supply lines were not bombed much before this time, so all those "poor victims" died in one year, that is what you are saying correct? Because up until 1944 Germany was pretty much WINNING. So pretty much all the deaths MUST have happened after 1944 correct?

in fact German war production continued to rise until the end of 1944. Area bombing consistently failed to meet its stated objective, which was to win the war by bombing Germany until its economy and civilian morale collapsed.

source

SO how can there be a reduction in supplies if production INCREASED??

Sorry but the information you are providing is flawed at it's core

Edit to add: If the 6 million is a correct number and the deaths were due to lack of supplies that means starting on Jan 1st 1944 to May 7th 1945 12000 people a day died

[edit on 25-12-2007 by thedigirati]

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

What effects does the destroying of supply lines to concentration camps holding upwards of 250,000 people have - and what actions caused the disruption?

This is the question.

To answer your question...no effect

You even quoted that of 250k people 100k of them died of over work and disease and the other 150k were shipped off to other DEATH camps. The term death camps means they are going there to die...

So I think your own sources answered this question for you in they were already slated to die by work, disease or DEATH camps. Destroying supply lines do not affect those already ear marked for death for not much of any supplies would get to them even if the lines were in full operation.

No effect... interesting.

As for the number, I posted that in the strict context of the number. You are making a mistake by taking it out of context. You must learn how to read within contextual bounds before posting in this thread again - please refrain from posting until you have been educated in such techniques.

"Death camp" is simply what the place was called in that specific web page - it has as much meaning as the phrase "Station Wagon." They are both nonsense and have nothing to due with reality.

On the other hand, I'm sure that you enjoy living in your world where infinate-nazi-death-gas is an ever lasting item and does not need to be brought in to the camps by supply trains and convoys in order to keep gassing 20,000 jews a day.

You're argument does not align with reality.

Yup. This is a troll...

You know, I really don't care who was a fault for what. There were enough atrocities committed by both sides to keep one sick at their stomach for a lifetime. It was war though and war is hell.

Rather than casting the blame for wars past, I think we should be spending our time trying to avoid wars in the future.

Just my thoughts on it,

First as a Moderator let me say that while this topic will evoke strong repsonses we all know to act civilly.

That of course means no personal attacks of any kind we attack the issue not the poster.

We also do not tell other members not to post in a thread because we don't like what they have to say.

This will all stop now please.

As a member I find this extremely interesting as my great uncle Isador who lived in germany was rounded up before the bombing of pearl harbor which is of course before we got into the war.

He (being the youngest) and his brother (second youngest) were the only ones in his family to get out and yes he had the numbers tattoo'd on his forearm...now we can all talk about lies and disinformation all we want and of course all I have to draw on are my memories of my Uncle but I'm pretty sure he, his mother, his father, sister and two brothers weren't rounded up because american's were bombing the supply lines.

Did I mention they were Jewish and not deseased and not poor...at the time anyway.

ANd of course to the OP If you can't post your source perhaps you should be a bit more tolerant of other peoples opinion on this matter.

Spiderj

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

It comes down to one simple action: halt the supply shipments to the camps. Who is responsible for doing that?
The allied forces, no one else. The holocaust was causal epidemic created by the allied forces. The allies didn't want the dirt on their hands, so they let lose the propaganda machine. The graves, the bodies, the gas - it was all there. They propaganda machine only had to apply a context.

Could you tell me which supply lines were actually cut by these Allied actions? It was my understanding that the rail network to the camps were not adversely affected by bombings or sabotage for any considerable period. Could you please provide some supporting sources that these supply lines were indeed cut?

There was very little reason for the Allies to be attacking targets in Poland and the East. They did bomb rail links in France but this would not have had much effect on food supplies to the East. They also attempted to cut the supplies of synthetic oil, which would have included targeting the IG Farben complex attached to Auschwitz-Birkenau, however due to the geographical distance the camps themselves, which had seperate rail links, were largely unaffected by these raids.

When food supplies were cut in the latter stages of the war, that is when Germany stopped sending food supplies to the camps, it is well documented that the Red Cross dropped food parcels into the camps wherever possible. As food supplies had been cut completely and the camps were often located in isolated locations, the guards were also without supplies. Naturally in most cases, and we have the guards testimony to support this, the food did not reach the inmates.

Though I agree that the Allies should accept some responsibility for the scale of death in the East I find that your hypothese falls short of the actual chain of events. If you can support your hypothese that food supplies were indeed reduced due to Allied actions then it may have some validity and I would be grateful if you could elaborate on how you reached that conclusion.






[edit on 25-12-2007 by KilgoreTrout]

A interesting read.

Pshycosis has presented another explanation to the events of the Holocaust.

I was taught something in political science and that was to leave a idea or story unchallenged, over time it will become unchallengeable.

This is a true statement. We people of the world were given one side of an event. It was delivered in film and by witnesses. There is no one that denies what the outcome was. Death of a lot of people.

I believe the truth lies between what we have been taught and what Pshycosis states.

My opinion is that the Nazis did exterminate lots of people. I also believe that they probably had lots they were going to use as slave labor after the war to rebuild their country. So many they executed, and many died from dieases and from starvation due to disruptions of medicines and food.

What is so sad about a historic event like this is the same with 911. We will never know the entire truth, because without a doubt there is always going to be misinformation given to help shape a view of the masses.

Of all deniers, the german apologists are perhaps the most insidious, and odious. After all Germany was bombed day and night for the better part of three years, invaded from two directions, and largely destroyed. This is all true...

So is the fact that the German people elected the Nazi's into power, and the Nazi proceeded to launch a war of conquest, and attempt to irradicate peoples who were no threat to them, Jews, Gypsies, physically/mentally handicapped, homosexuals, and others deemed unreliable by the state.

Yes the infrastructure of Germany was destroyed by Allied bombing. Got news for you, little of that infrastructure was being used to feed those poor souls in the various camps. Used to transport them to a horrific end, that much is true.

In an aside, without evidence anything you say is extremely disputable.

Maybe if the Nazis hadn't invaded Poland, and start gobbling up land like there was no tommorow, with the join us or be killed because we are "special", while you without blonde hair/blue eyes are not (hitler had neither btw rofl). We are Arians, the true sons on God Shtick ect ect, the speeches he and his partners in crime are as tyranical(is that a word? should be)as they come. It was Hitler's own ego and the Nazi party that got this whole War started.

If he hadn't been a meniacal psychopath, hell bent on World domination no matter the cost. We wouldn't even be haveing this discussion. There would have been no WWII. No death camps.

I think we know who's to blame for all the lives lost in those camps during WWII.

Seriously you cannot compare event's like the holocaust to alien abductions where only a single person is a witness at each scene. There were hundreds of thousands of witnesses to Nazi assisinations in the death camps.

Going by your thinking, we may as well throw away every history book in our libraries( yea go ahead, history is written by the victor, yadda yadda). I suppose there may have been no civil War here in America, I mean few all those people could be lieing, or just have terrible memories.

I'm not buying this one bit.

If the Nazi party was so concerned about the welfare of the people in these camps, the minute they realized, that 50% were ending up dead in ditches, so they could tend to the other 50%. Why didnt they surrender then?

I'll give you an A for effort, but what your trying has been tried before(maybe I'll take that A back cause this may have been a copy and paste job from some White power Neo Nazi Forum), and fails miserably everytime. Face it, The Holocaust Happened, and it was the Germans who killed millions of Jews, and Gypsies ect.

Blaming the holocaust on the U.S. I believe there were 2 other Major world powers doing severe damage to Germany as well, or is this just an American hate speech?

Excuse the typos, and made up words and stuff. I have a bad habit of doing that

[edit on 25-12-2007 by Nola213]

Absolute total nonsense..garbage. It sounds like the depraved wonderings of some tilted mind and not an opinion based upon anything real. Using old propaganda pictures as if they represented reality is sick, and dishonest. I feel like taking a shower after replying to this post: Let me tell you a real and true story:


My dear old Dad, now 84, related to me the experiences he went thru in Germany as a front line medic in the 3rd Army under Patton. One day the Russians liberated Buchenwald concentration camp: the Germans feared the Russians terrible, knowing the haterd that the Russkies harbored for them, and they fled the day before, leaving the camp undefended. The next day, dad and his unit arrived along with some brass to see what was what.

Dad told me that the only reason he was telling me this ( he never talked about his war experiences in detail ) was because some fools say that it never happened or was not really bad, and he told me not to believe them. He told me about seeing, with his own eyes, the human skin lampshades in the office of the commandant, the notorious " Bitch of Buchenwald " , Ilse Koch , and described the piles of bodies and the horros that were there. He was appaled that human beings, Germans, supposedly civilized human beings, could descend that far into the depths of depravity.

" Don't ever let anyone ever tell you that it didn't happen ", he said..and tell you what, OP..I will believe the word of the finest man on earth, my Dad, the most honorable, brave, honest,truthful man alive ( in my opinion!!) says you are wrong and full of baloney and thats good enough for me. You could not convince anyone but some Nazi wannabe's about your ' theory ' that you laughingly call proof...very sad indeed.