Is Allah the Lord God of Israel? Or a liar?

Originally posted by babloyi
What about the LORD GOD of ALL HUMANITY? Y'know, the big One and Only? Or do you suggest that there is more than one god?

Men worship many things as gods. JEHOVAH, the I AM, declared in Jesus Christ, is the one and only creator, which everything else is a creation of his.


The point wasn't to say that I'm right and they are wrong. That would be pointless.

The point is to show that the bible which predates the quran was inspired by one "GOD", and the quran was inspired by another "god". Which contradicts the very nature and testimony of the GOD of the bible.

And the only reason I have any grounds to do this is because the quran states that the same thing ("god") that inspired it also inspired the bible. As I've repeated no tellin how many times here. Now if the "god" of the quran then contradicts the very nature and testimony of the "GOD" of the bible, it then makes one of them a liar.

The newer inspiration which pops up out of no where (which claims total superiority over everything else mind you) called the quran, just happens to be the contradicting document.

Now, how any sound reasoning could accept the thing is just beyond me. Unless one was brainwashed from a young age to accept it. Like alot of traditional christianity is, or any other religion is for that matter.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The point is to show that the bible which predates the quran was inspired by one "GOD", and the quran was inspired by another "god". Which contradicts the very nature and testimony of the GOD of the bible.

I agree that if one were to take God to be the one described in the Bible as it currently is, this would very likely not match up with the concept of God in Islam.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The newer inspiration which pops up out of no where (which claims total superiority over everything else mind you) called the quran, just happens to be the contradicting document.

If you take the idea that B came first, then C came, therefore B is correct, then I suppose your line of reasoning would be work. It is interesting to note, however, that the Old Testament came before the New Testament, and taking it on its own (as the Jews may do today), it is not very conducive to the ideas of Christianity (now of course, you may disagree with me, but the Jew would not). Are you saying that the message of the New Testament does not claim total superiority?

I submit that it IS just a case of bouncing 'I am right, you are wrong' back and forth, and can't really be anything more. I follow the instructions of the Christ insofar as I believe in the Lord my God, with all my heart, and all my soul, and all my strength and I try my best to treat my neighbour as myself.

[edit on 5-1-2008 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
I agree that if one were to take God to be the one described in the Bible as it currently is, this would very likely not match up with the concept of God in Islam.

Yep. Yet if you roll back to the first page where I quoted the quran, you will see that the "god" of the quran makes the claim that "it" was the one who inspired most of the prophets which make up most of the bible.

It even goes so far as to say that those who believe the torah (which it contradicts) and the gospel (which it contradicts) or in good standing with GOD. Insanity.

It (allah) says it was the one who gave the very law that it contradicts. Which is recorded in the torah.

Originally posted by babloyi
If you take the idea that B came first, then C came, therefore B is correct, then I suppose your line of reasoning would be work.

Yes, the major element is attempting to reason from faith to logic. Faith "just knows" things. One can know something is right or wrong, in agreement or disagreement, yet converting from the unseen to the seen, is nearly impossible with some things.

Originally posted by babloyi
It is interesting to note, however, that the Old Testament came before the New Testament, and taking it on its own (as the Jews may do today), it is not very conducive to the ideas of Christianity (now of course, you may disagree with me, but the Jew would not).

Hopefully we will have this thread pop up sooner than later comparing the new and old testament. Rather than cluttering this thread, which is gonna happen one way or the other anyway.

Originally posted by babloyi
Are you saying that the message of the New Testament does not claim total superiority?

It doesn't. It fits it like a glove. What these folks don't understand is. Faith started with Abraham, not the law. The law is an in between thing. No flesh will ever be justified by the law. It's by grace, through faith.

Unless the LORD open their eyes, they will never ever see it. Never.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Yep. Yet if you roll back to the first page where I quoted the quran, you will see that the "god" of the quran makes the claim that "it" was the one who inspired most of the prophets which make up most of the bible.

It even goes so far as to say that those who believe the torah (which it contradicts) and the gospel (which it contradicts) or in good standing with GOD. Insanity.

It (allah) says it was the one who gave the very law that it contradicts. Which is recorded in the torah.

But you don't understand. If you roll back to the first page, you will see where I said, according to the Quran, the previous scriptures have been corrupted. According to Islam, the original message (as given to Moses or Jesus or David, etc.) was the same as that message given to Muhammad (which makes sense, considering that Muslims believe it is the same God, the ONLY God).

SO: According to Islam, the last revelation (to Muhammad) was revealed because the ORIGINAL message(s) (delivered to the Prophets) had been corrupted by those who came after those prophets. The job of the last revelation was to straighten out everything, as well as fix up a few things so that the law can be applied universally (as opposed to a specific time an place). Throughout all of the revelations the CORE message has of course remained the same: The belief in the ONE TRUE GOD.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Unless the LORD open their eyes, they will never ever see it. Never.

Absolutely agree!

Originally posted by babloyi
SO: According to Islam, the last revelation (to Muhammad) was revealed because the ORIGINAL message(s) (delivered to the Prophets) had been corrupted by those who came after those prophets.

That's a convenient argument. Corruption is one thing, but a total change of character is another.

Originally posted by babloyi

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Unless the LORD open their eyes, they will never ever see it. Never.

Absolutely agree!

Unless the word is communicated from faith to faith. It's dead to the hearer and has no effect.

Tis one brilliant creation we happen to be a part of.

Here's a testimony of an ex-muslim woman which somebody just emailed me a link to.

I feel it could be quite fitting in this thread somewhere, for any interested. She makes mention of how she began to find contradictions in the quran also. Interesting.

Part1:


Part2:

reply to post by WiseSheep


And on that note....

Wisesheep, I'm going to tell you something, right here and now.

I'm NOT convinced that the quaran is true.

Too many indescrepencies and what not.

Im sick to ALMIGHTY God tired of people coming around me and telling me that the quaran has truths.

yeah...whatever..."The Devil/Satan/Shaytan can cite scripture for his purpose."

NOBODY can come unto God, lest through his Son.

~Ducky~

reply to post by WiseSheep


Hey WiseSheep!
You mention 'convenience' of the argument again. I really don't know what to say to this. It is the way it is. I don't see how convenience comes into it. It is very convenient that the entire creation is so perfectly fitted together. It is very convenient that there is so much beauty in nature. It is very convenient that God is right there if you care to look. However, it is also true. So what has convenience got to do with it?

As for the woman (and Duckster), finding of contradictions is mentioned, but none of those are mentioned, so I really can't reply to it in any way. She made a point of how Jesus is NOT actually the begotten son of God (ie. came down from heaven and placed his essence in Mary's womb), so I'm curious as to the capacity in which Jesus is the son of God.

Anyhow, I don't see WHY I should have the need for any intercessor, go-between, translator in my communication with God. God is all-powerful, I can talk direct. I may not be perfect, or sinless, or pure, but God is ever-loving, and all-merciful (what would be the ultimate superlative form of loving and merciful? ). An alternate question (which you would probably consider off-topic, but it is still an interesting point) is whether Jesus is the 'Lord God of Israel'.

However, since this thread is about Islam, you could post some of these 'indescrepencies' you noticed. You mentioned the bit about the devil and the angels, and when I gave the explanation (as laid out in the Quran), you said the answer was 'too convenient'.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
So what has convenience got to do with it?

The corruption argument is the only leg the enemy has to stand on. That is why it's convenient.

What's even more convenient is the fact that he has enough blind religious people to manipulate into simply repeating what they have heard rather than reasoning for themselves. Of course Islam has nothing to do with that. Christianity has many like that too.


The reason the woman in the video began to see certain things is because in the midst of her experience she was being given the gift of faith. Not a simple change of mind, but a torn veil between her and the creator.

Originally posted by babloyi
She made a point of how Jesus is NOT actually the begotten son of God (ie. came down from heaven and placed his essence in Mary's womb), so I'm curious as to the capacity in which Jesus is the son of God.

She did no such thing. She explained how she used to explain it away, simply repeating what she had heard.

Originally posted by babloyi
God is all-powerful, I can talk direct.

The god men have from birth is not all powerful, he only does what he is allowed to do. Those who remain his until death will then go to the place prepared for he and his angels.

Originally posted by babloyi
I may not be perfect, or sinless, or pure, but God is ever-loving, and all-merciful (what would be the ultimate superlative form of loving and merciful?

Perfect and sinless is not the issue. Only Jesus was and is. The issue is your justification before GOD. You won't get it any other way.

Originally posted by babloyi
However, since this thread is about Islam, you could post some of these 'indescrepencies' you noticed.

The entire reason for the thread is to point out the contradictions. Has he taken that from you also?

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The corruption argument is the only leg the enemy has to stand on. That is why it's convenient.

But I ask again, what has convenience got to do with it? There are many things that are 'convenient'. There are many things that are true. Is it convenience that if I pick up a grain of sugar from a jar that it is the exact grain of sugar that I was going to pick up? Is it convenience that Jesus supposedly died on the cross to wash away the original sin and sins with us if we accept him, but the original sin concept was something built up in the same book? If I don't believe in the problem, the solution is meaningless to me.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
What's even more convenient is the fact that he has enough blind religious people to manipulate into simply repeating what they have heard rather than reasoning for themselves. Of course Islam has nothing to do with that. Christianity has many like that too.

Be logical for me, then. Open my eyes. You said that the Quran is contradicting itself because it says that satan didn't bow down before adam, when angels are higher than humans. I showed you that according to the Quran: Satan is not an angel and Angels are not higher than humans. I am not repeating anything, I read it myself. You have a chance to read it yourself also (instead of blindly repeating what you have read on anti-islam sites j/k).

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The reason the woman in the video began to see certain things is because in the midst of her experience she was being given the gift of faith. Not a simple change of mind, but a torn veil between her and the creator.

I'd have thought it was because she was isolated and surrounded and bombarded from all sides with Christian theology, but neither me nor you were there, so I wouldn't be able to tell.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
She did no such thing. She explained how she used to explain it away, simply repeating what she had heard.

I am not just repeating what I have heard. I read for myself also. It is written quite clearly in the Bible that Jesus was(is?) the begotten son of God.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Perfect and sinless is not the issue. Only Jesus was and is. The issue is your justification before GOD. You won't get it any other way.

If Jesus was(is?) God, then it is no surprise, nor is it a thing of any amount of amazement of effort that he is sinless and pure.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The entire reason for the thread is to point out the contradictions. Has he taken that from you also?

Has who taken what from me? I thought the purpose of this thread was to figure out if Allah is the Lord God of Israel, or a liar. I can't find any contradictions, so I was hoping you could help me in that department.

Originally posted by babloyi
But I ask again, what has convenience got to do with it?

Convenient meaning it's the only straw the opposition has to cling to. The further convenience is the fact that the majority on earth are satan's children, therefore feed natively on lies. The truth is something foreign and hidden to them.

The truth is basically foolishness and lies to the "world" unless GOD be pleased to reveal himself in them.

Originally posted by babloyi
If I don't believe in the problem, the solution is meaningless to me.

There's nothing to argue there. It would be rather difficult to be saved from something you don't need to be saved from now wouldn't it?

You can't possibly believe the problem unless it's revealed to you.

Like the lady in the two clips previously posted. She was an enemy, fighting them with everything she had until the truth was shown to her. Not by the will of man, but by GOD.

Originally posted by babloyi
Be logical for me, then. Open my eyes.

As bad as I would love to, I can't.

Only one makes the blind see, and it certainly ain't me.

Originally posted by babloyi
You said that the Quran is contradicting itself because it says that satan didn't bow down before adam, when angels are higher than humans.

The case I present is not that the Quran contradicts itself. The case I present is that the "god" that inspired the prophet/islam/quran is not the same "GOD" that inspired the bible.

One of the evidences of that, is the claim that the angels were forced to bow to Adam. Jehovah would do no such thing. If anything bows it will bow to HIM and every knee will.

Originally posted by babloyi
You have a chance to read it yourself also (instead of blindly repeating what you have read on anti-islam sites

j/k).

I'm not blindly repeating anything.

Originally posted by babloyi
I'd have thought it was because she was isolated and surrounded and bombarded from all sides with Christian theology, but neither me nor you were there, so I wouldn't be able to tell.

If that were the case she would have simply converted from one religion to another, rather than receiving the spirit of adoption.

Theology will save no man, only Jesus Christ will.

Originally posted by babloyi
I am not just repeating what I have heard. I read for myself also.

No I was referring to the woman in the video.

Originally posted by babloyi
It is written quite clearly in the Bible that Jesus was(is?) the begotten son of God.

The only begotten son of the father, yes. How then did he say through the prophet Isaiah (9:6) long before his birth that this son who would be given would be called "Everlasting Father"?

That's written quite clearly in the bible too.

Originally posted by babloyi
Has who taken what from me?

Did you see the quote from the quran? I believe it's my second post in this thread, go see. How "allah" claims to blind his enemies. When in reality he does this to his own people. They have no idea because they are blinded.

People have no idea they are owned. Because they are blind concerning the existence of their owner. Unless he reveals himself to them, they blindly feel their way around attempting to figure him out.

Originally posted by babloyi
I thought the purpose of this thread was to figure out if Allah is the Lord God of Israel, or a liar. I can't find any contradictions, so I was hoping you could help me in that department.

How will a man ever find something he cannot see?

Originally posted by WiseSheep

Originally posted by babloyi
Be logical for me, then. Open my eyes.

As bad as I would love to, I can't.

Only one makes the blind see, and it certainly ain't me.

The moment I used that wording, I realised it was a mistake, and would be picked up as you picked it up. You said that many people repeat what they hear without reasoning for themselves. I asked what was wrong with my reasoning. God cannot go against His nature. God is truth, God is balance, God is purity.
To believe that one cannot 'reach' God through logical thought (although it would admittedly be a very dimmed and incomplete way) is against the nature of God: 'I am that I am'. No other entity in the universe can claim this. Even if you disagree that reason cannot be used to reach God, it can definitely be used to cancel out what is NOT God.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The only begotten son of the father, yes. How then did he say through the prophet Isaiah (9:6) long before his birth that this son who would be given would be called "Everlasting Father"?

That's written quite clearly in the bible too.

I've never heard anyone call Jesus the Everlasting Father. Jesus was always the SON. Jesus himself says that the Father is greater than him. Besides, I don't think that Jesus is the ONLY begotten son of the God, not even according to the Bible. David was also the begotten son of God.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Did you see the quote from the quran? I believe it's my second post in this thread, go see. How "allah" claims to blind his enemies. When in reality he does this to his own people. They have no idea because they are blinded.

People have no idea they are owned. Because they are blind concerning the existence of their owner. Unless he reveals himself to them, they blindly feel their way around attempting to figure him out.

There really is no response to this. You say they are blind, they say you are blind, who is right? You'd claim to have 'seen' at least a little, and would use your experience as evidence, when the other side would do the exact same thing, and they'd feel that they're just as valid.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
How will a man ever find something he cannot see?

I suppose I agree with this also somewhat. However, God is most merciful. Someone is looking, they will see. Even if someone is not looking, the signs are there.

Originally posted by babloyi
To believe that one cannot 'reach' God through logical thought (although it would admittedly be a very dimmed and incomplete way) is against the nature of God: 'I am that I am'.

You can reach him through logical thought. Mixed with faith. The faith is something only he gives.

All of his things reason very, very well. When faith is added. They are very easily understood. So simple a child can, when faith is added.


I'm sure there are a few who can verify the information I've posted flawlessly discredits the quran and basically throws away the entire foundation of Islam. However, you don't see it. Not only you, but many don't see it, and many will not see it.

The data presented is for those who do see it and are healed.

Originally posted by babloyi
I've never heard anyone call Jesus the Everlasting Father.

You just did. The Everlasting Father inspired Isaiah to record what he did.

Originally posted by babloyi
David was also the begotten son of God.

David's father was Jesse.

Originally posted by babloyi
Someone is looking, they will see.

Except a man be drawn to the fountain, he'll never drink.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
You can reach him through logical thought. Mixed with faith. The faith is something only he gives.

All of his things reason very, very well. When faith is added. They are very easily understood. So simple a child can, when faith is added.

A person needs to have faith in God, not faith in the Bible, or faith in the Quran. The Bible and the Quran are physical things. If they are proven to be wrong even in the SLIGHTEST, then they cannot possibly be from God.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The data presented is for those who do see it and are healed.

This doesn't make sense. If they have seen it already, and 'are healed', they have no reason to be wondering if Allah is the Lord God of Israel, or a liar.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
David's father was Jesse.

As off-topic as it is, check out Psalms 2: "I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have begotten you.'"

[edit on 8-1-2008 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
A person needs to have faith in God, not faith in the Bible, or faith in the Quran. The Bible and the Quran are physical things. If they are proven to be wrong even in the SLIGHTEST, then they cannot possibly be from God.

Amen. The bible or the quran will not save you. Only the creator by the way in which he has chosen.

Originally posted by babloyi
This doesn't make sense. If they have seen it already, and 'are healed', they have no reason to be wondering if Allah is the Lord God of Israel, or a liar.

It's possible that some see while they are looking.

Originally posted by babloyi
As off-topic as it is, check out Psalms 2: "I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have begotten you.'"

Indeed, but Jesse was his father. With GOD all things are possible, yet Jesse was still his father.