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Is Allah the Lord God of Israel? Or a liar?

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posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi
Are you saying that according to the God of the entire Mankind, one line of people is any more important than another?


Reply to above quote, originally posted by WiseSheep
... yes.

Old covenant, new covenant, as long as that answer is 'yes' then you are placing yourself above God's Love (and thus denying it) by claiming that some lines of people (for no other reason then their heritage) get the
from God while some lines of people (for no other reason then their heritage) get the
from God.

I was gonna say why, but then I saw your next statement:



Originally posted by WiseSheep
At this point in time, all are equal. The circumcision now is not of the genitals but of the heart, which is something man has no control over what so ever.

To possess free will (and thus possess choice) is to be human.

Quite a blow, to take a man's humanity away in a single statement...

No matter the heritage (i.e. the history) of a human being, he always possesses the choice to choose a different path. Even if a man is born in an Islamic family, he has the choice (when presented) to become a Christian. Even if it is God who makes the transition possible instead of the man, it is the man's choice which allows God to create the transition.

Claiming that man has no choice defeats the entire purpose of your thread, anyway. Why are you attempting to prove wrong and/or convert those who are entirely incapable of choosing anything differently (if what you say is true)?



Originally posted by WiseSheep
Then one messenger shouldn't contradict the other. Should they?

What I mean is the over all truth of the message.

Tis very true - but it would be complete arrogance to make the baseless claim that your message is the valid one.

...And quoting the Bible here has little credence in this argument. The Qur'an states the other scriptures were corrupted by man and so if I have nothing other than faith to use in this decision, then this argument is in a deadlock.

We have two statements made entirely on faith with nothing else (i.e. a lack of clearer understanding of what it actually MEANS to be Islamic or Christian) to support their claim. Why should I believe the Bible is the accurate one? Because 'it works' and I will go to heaven after I die? A follower of Islam has the potential to make the exact same claim. When the 'reward' or 'punishment' lies beyond the scope of a human life (i.e. after death), it really is and always will be just a choice between apples and oranges to those still living.

If I have an open mind, (which I do) woo me!
What evidence pertaining to this lifetime do you have that your scripture is the accurate one?



Originally posted by WiseSheep
One way to get around the free will thing isn't it? Just call him a Jinn and be done with it. It'd be nice if everything was that easy.

As babloyi said, it is simply the way the Qur'an is structured.

The Bible says Lucifer is a fallen angel, while the Qur'an says Iblis is a Jinn. According to each faith, the story checks out and both are 'easy' explanations - especially if you take into accord that angels are supposed to possess no will other than God's (which would then mean God ORDERED Lucifer to fall).


It is my sincere wish we could discuss what we have in common rather than argue over which faith is more faithful to God... While I have washed my hands of whatever choice you make (BTW, thanks for helping me through that - as a messenger I've often felt guilty if who I am in communication with misinterprets or chooses to ignore my message... and it is freeing to be on the upward climb of understanding that communication is a two-way street), I still wish to grow WITH you in our awareness of God.

So! Will you humor me with something human about yourself?
I enjoy soy (or non-dairy) ice cream!
Do you have any favorite (or even enjoy) sweets?




posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
I do see where you're coming from, but I think your points are kind of weak. You have an obvious agenda, so this makes the initial question not even worthy of discussion.


Yes, you are mighty right I have an agenda. After all who doesn't? You certainly have one that you aren't even aware of.

What sparked my agenda is one boasting about how Islam is such a fast growing religion at the moment.

What they are too ignorant to realize is, they themselves will probably be used as a judgment from GOD. Not Allah, but the one who really runs the show.

If they keep going where they are going, they will burn as with the vast majority of the population of this earth.

My agenda is that just maybe some eyes will see and some ears will hear. In which case the only way a person will see and hear is if GOD gives it to them.


Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
But, I'll continue to discuss this with you, for sake of argument.

Even though the Qu'ran says angels should bow to adam don't necessarily mean they're of two different gods.


It doesn't say they should, it says they did.


Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
As the perception of hell changes in the new testament, couldn't the same be true for similar little flaws in the Qu'ran.


Hell is the same in the new as was in the old. A place of paradise and burning. One next door to the other. There is the possibility that paradise was moved out. That opens another can of worms entirely.


Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
I know you wish that Islam wasn't related to Christianity, but Judaism, Christinaity, and Islam are all peas in the same pod.


Personally I don't care what it's related to. The fact that the thing that inspired the quran claimed also to be the inspiration behind Judaism and Christianity. It's the very thing that discredits Islam.


Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
The writers of the NT also had quite the heads up on the situation, given that the OT was written in a conceptual way, giving the next generation all the power to fill in the blanks at will.


Yes but to those who GOD's existence is hidden, all they see is men bringing about all these things.


Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
If these minor differences convince you they are not the same god, I'm sure you know deep down you're lying to yourself.


If you could taste what I know for only one second. That minor drop on your tongue would convince you. However there is no way to reason faith properly.


Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
These religions are based from the same god.


Are you sure you aren't repeating something you have heard, rather than reasoning yourself? It's what religion does to people.


Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
That's why they're called Abrahamic religions.


They are called Abrahamic "faiths" in an attempt to merge this whole mess into a one world religion. There is only one Abrahamic faith because there is only one Abraham. So the only faith that Abraham has is the only faith that is Abrahamic.

Abraham as I am typing this is beholding the glory of Jesus Christ RIGHT NOW. So what faith does Abraham have?



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by WiseSheep
 


You don't know anything we don't. I can assure you that. The errors in content of both of your books give me a slight flutter of confidence when even talking about the afterlife. Think as you may and let others live their lives. No thoughts of impending doom are going to shake us up, as we've all heard the same old story time and time again. As far as this discussion, have at it. You seem to be oblivious to the knowledge and logical rationale being given to you from 2 or 3 different people and your only concern is "disproving" a religion that is as factually sound as your own. Good luck with your trivial pursuit of "truth" within books that seem to supply others with nothing but contradictions and hypocrisy. Remember that all three of the Abrahamic "faiths" pray to the same god that is judging you all, and that is a fact. Hate and alienate your brothers, but only time will tell what exactly is "truth."



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
You don't know anything we don't. I can assure you that.


Had they have known, they wouldn't have crucified him. So it's probably fitting to say that they were just as sure of his lack of understanding, as you are of mine. Not knowing that he has full reign over all things and can make you see what he wants you to see.

His will be done, not ours.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
Think as you may and let others live their lives.



I bow to the infinite mercy, compassion, and wisdom of your statement!


The world will be a much better place when all of us, of ALL denominations, embrace the insight of DeadFlagBlues and let others think what they want to think - to live and let live - REGARDLESS if we (as in, Christians) believe those other guys (as in, everyone else) are going to hell or not.

If one is so sure that the promise of afterlife will be one's reward, I say (from the perspective of the Live-And-Let-Live Christian) let the MFers burn with their beliefs in the hereafter! Just give em' the only act of mercy and compassion you can, ya know? Let em' think what they want to think and let em' live how they choose to live.

Cheers to you DeadFlagBlues! A great philosophy appliable to everyone!


**EDIT: It came to my attention that through my vague wording and unclear perspective of where I was coming from that I was being misinterpreted. I condemn nobody - I was just coming from the perspective of someone who does and that it is perfectly fine to condemn others as long as we just let them live their own lives.

[edit on 10-12-2007 by TrueAce]



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by TrueAce
If one is so sure that the promise of afterlife will be one's reward, I say let the MFers burn with their beliefs in the hereafter!


Don't let your god of love get the best of you there now.



Originally posted by TrueAce
Just give em' the only act of mercy and compassion you can, ya know? Let em' think what they want to think and let em' live how they choose to live.



You don't see me bulldozing mosques or blowing up churches and temples do you? Or rigging road side bombs.

All you see is a simple individual sitting at a keyboard speaking through simple word and letters. That's it.

People will live how they will. Some see and hear.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by TrueAce
 


I guess knowledge/wisdom will only get you so far, seeing as I will be among those "burning for eternity in a molten lava, given lashes by tormented souls and demons, going through crucifix after crucifix, enduring all that Jesus had so that I may live a better life."

Spare me.

:shk:



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by WiseSheep
 


You are you. Because others do that, doesn't mean "all" of them do that, or even a majority. You have all people, of all creeds, doing terrible things to one another.

Violence isn't creed specific.



How I pity the simple minds.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by WiseSheep
Don't let your god of love get the best of you there now.

That was in humor (as I just got finished with my wonderfully comical, good-willful, and happy feeling post in another thread and it carried into my post in this one), and was also coming from the viewpoint of someone other than myself - someone who believes that suffering now can guarantee reward later.

I'm uncertain if I've said this before to you, but I know that my time in the hereafter will be EXACTLY how I make my time here in the NOW. If I feel I am in heaven NOW, then I will be in heaven in the hereafter (and vice versa).

And keep the faith! My God has already gotten the best of me (and He will continue to do so)!




Originally posted by WiseSheep
You don't see me bulldozing mosques or blowing up churches and temples do you? Or rigging road side bombs.

All you see is a simple individual sitting at a keyboard speaking through simple word and letters. That's it.

People will live how they will. Some see and hear.

Very true! I am the greatest of gratitude and feel the most fortunate of fortunates to hear you say those words! But if you see the connection...

People bulldozing mosques or blowing up churches or bombing temples comes from people WHO ARE UNABLE TO LIVE AND LET LIVE. For whatever reasons (probably very valid in their own minds), they need to change people and the environment outside of themselves (in otherwords, convert or destroy the non-believers) in order to feel their Oneness with God (which is our birthright - no conversions necessary).


Wow... I just had a revelation...


It is in my best interests to just relax and allow you to believe that your religion is the only one that is under God's grace. As long as you are in no position of authority over me (i.e. you become the president of the united states, you become the boss of my company, you become the regulator of censorship, etc), you can make God as small you as you wish!

However, that is the FOUNDATION of my allowing you to live by your beliefs:
You are in no position of authority over me!

This only becomes a problem when you believe (perhaps according to doctrine) that God has given you authority over me. If you attempt to intervene in my free-will, I will defend myself vehemently and will see you as an outside invader attempting to take what does not belong to you.

Wow, this is quite the revelation for me...

The reason I have discussed so much with you and attempted to open your mind to possibilities is that I would loathe to have you as my president (father, boss, ruling authority, etc) - it is obvious to me that I would become a 'terrorist' under your 'dictatorship' (which is how my fellow compatriots and I would view you) because you would outlaw anything other than belief in Christianity as the one true religion.

Do you see what I am mean? Are you understanding the challange?



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 


DeadFlagBlues!
I give you my deepest appreciation for pointing out the vagueness of my post!
I have edited it in lieu of your enlightening observation!

From a Christian perspective, we'll be seeing a lot of each other in the hereafter.



**EDIT: Boy is my face red! I called you DeadBlueFlags...


[edit on 10-12-2007 by TrueAce]



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by TrueAce
 


I'm with you now. No apologies or thank yous necessary. It's past my bedtime or otherwise, I would have been right with you, I'm sure.



posted on Jan, 4 2008 @ 08:12 AM
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reply to post by WiseSheep
 



Well if angels have no free will then why didn't iblis be the nice little puppet they believe he is and bow down to Adam too, according to the quran?


I'm thinking that the angels did have 'free-will'.

RE 'War in Heaven': Did not 1/3 of the angels (along with Lucifer) get booted out, because they made a choice?

To follow God or Lucifer.

~Ducky~



posted on Jan, 4 2008 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by TheDuckster
RE 'War in Heaven': Did not 1/3 of the angels (along with Lucifer) get booted out, because they made a choice?


Yes, and if my memory serves me right, it appears they (islam) claim "satan" isn't the ordinary angel. He's some different type creature. Iblis as they call him. So then, that really raises a contradiction, concerning the others who would have chosen to then follow him.

If you haven't looked into the book, I think it's "the life of adam and eve". It's nearly a copy of the same story portrayed in the quran. One can conclude they have the same spirits doing the inspiring on both.

The inspiration certainly is not coming from the LORD GOD of ISRAEL.



posted on Jan, 4 2008 @ 09:46 AM
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Me being Jewish, I have made similar conclusions about the New Testament, especially anything written by Paul. Paul for sure can't be inspired by the Lord G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.

I'll probably make a thread like this one, discussing discrepencies between Paul and Jesus. The NT itself contradicts itself. A simple thing like Judas' death, burial, and the silver vary wildly between the Gosples and then the book of Acts has a really bizarre variation. Even prophecies mentioned in the NT are misquoted or vastly taken out of context.

Anyone who deeply studied early history of Christianity would know there was a very different Gospel at one time attributed to Matthew, that has some similarities to the later Gospels but is very, very Jewish ( circumcision, kosher diet, etc. ) Sadly this document has been lost and was probably destroyed by the early Roman church. The latter Gospels still retains Jesus' original mesaage, the Shepherd who came for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, who forbid the Apostles from preaching to the Gentiles, and even compared a Gentile woman to a dog, which is on par with being called a pig. Even more bizarre is his reference to Psalm 82 and the Bnai Elyon, the Elohim.

I personally dont know what to make of Jesus, but if you read what he is claimed to of said and put it in context, well its pretty interesting.

Even more interesting is the condemnation of the Churches established by Paul in Revelations or that James the brother of Jesus and first Bishop of Jerusalem declared Paul an apostate. The remnants of the Jerusalem church of James were the one's who had that original gospel of Matthew.


[edit on 4/1/08 by MikeboydUS]



posted on Jan, 4 2008 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Me being Jewish, I have made similar conclusions about the New Testament, especially anything written by Paul. Paul for sure can't be inspired by the Lord G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.


Yea another thread would be way better. This one's already made it around the globe two or three times and hasn't gone a mile.



posted on Jan, 4 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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You're right Wisesheep!!!
Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world", he went on to say if it was his servants would fight!
Jesus advocated Love and truth and mercy, to the jew first and also to the greek. His disciples were quite shocked that they were going to be used to save the gentiles, also!

The Koran, and the Talmud both advocate Evil in the pursuit of unflinching domination.


One thing I don't understand is what is the difference between the Torah and the Tenach????
There is an extra-biblical 'tradition' of oral Torah Mishna, Talmud (babylonian), etc..



posted on Jan, 4 2008 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by Clearskies
The Koran, and the Talmud both advocate Evil in the pursuit of unflinching domination.


Ahh the Talmud! Yet another arrow in the quiver.


Originally posted by Clearskies
There is an extra-biblical 'tradition' of oral Torah Mishna, Talmud (babylonian), etc..


What's sad is the oral tradition now known as "christianity". Which is a dead body totally separate from the head it was intended to have.

Somewhat the same blind spirit that was roaming 2000 years ago. It's put on a different shell.

Let's wait on this other thread.



posted on Jan, 4 2008 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by WiseSheep
Yes, and if my memory serves me right, it appears they (islam) claim "satan" isn't the ordinary angel. He's some different type creature. Iblis as they call him. So then, that really raises a contradiction, concerning the others who would have chosen to then follow him.


Hey WiseSheep!
Your views on Islam's differences with Christianity and Judaism are irrelevant to me, but I'd like to clarify some stuff that it doesn't seem you are aware of:

Shaitan means adversary in Arabic. The Shaitan's name is Iblis (I believe it means 'desperate'). Iblis is not any sort of angel. As far as I'm aware, according to Islam, angels are made out of light, while jinns are made out of fire. Iblis may have been the greatest jinn, but is not the only Jinn, and not all jinns choose to follow Iblis. There are/were no 'fallen angels' who joined up in some satanic army, at least not according to Islam.

You may think the explanation is very convenient, or is a side-stepper or is untrue, but as I said, that is irrelevant to me. I just want to clarify and point out what the actual Islamic story is. While I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect your opinion towards Islam in the slightest, I hope you will appreciate having your facts straightened out.

[edit on 4-1-2008 by babloyi]



posted on Jan, 4 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
Shaitan means adversary in Arabic.


Yep. That's the meaning of satan, adversary. Technically any adversary against the creator is satan. Known as "the enemy", "the devil", etc. Diabolos in greek, similar.

So back to the main argument. If the content of the quran, even in the slightest, contradicts the LORD GOD of ISRAEL. It then was inspired by an adversary (satan) of his.

That was/is the entire point of this thread. The point wasn't to Allahbash so much as it was to point out, that he ain't the GOD of Israel.


Originally posted by babloyi
You may think the explanation is very convenient, or is a side-stepper or is untrue, but as I said, that is irrelevant to me.


Certainly not by the followers or the scribe. They aren't the target. The target is the one(s) who inspired the thing. We don't fight flesh and blood.


Originally posted by babloyi
While I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect your opinion towards Islam in the slightest, I hope you will appreciate having your facts straightened out.


Indeed and at some point I hope to get a better look at this whole thing. Yet it ain't quite on top of the todo list at the moment.



posted on Jan, 5 2008 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by WiseSheep
So back to the main argument. If the content of the quran, even in the slightest, contradicts the LORD GOD of ISRAEL. It then was inspired by an adversary (satan) of his.

That was/is the entire point of this thread. The point wasn't to Allahbash so much as it was to point out, that he ain't the GOD of Israel.

What about the LORD GOD of ALL HUMANITY? Y'know, the big One and Only? Or do you suggest that there is more than one god?

Anyhow, it seems we have reached an impasse here.
This is why I originally said that this thread would never work. The Christians will say that the Islamic scriptures are inspired by the devil, and use their scriptures as proof. The Muslims will say that the previous scriptures have been corrupted by man, and use their own scriptures as proof.

A somewhat unbiased methodology for checking out (which you can agree or disagree to apply, doesn't really matter to me):
Since both parties say that the other is wrong, is there an objective way of checking each party without relying on the other's books? After all, the text of the One True God would be devoid of any mistakes whatsoever. If there is even one mistake, than that text must be wrong.
Is there any non-religiously biased way of checking whether the Bible has been corrupted? Is there any non-religiously biased way of checking whether the Quran is false?


Originally posted by WiseSheep
Indeed and at some point I hope to get a better look at this whole thing. Yet it ain't quite on top of the todo list at the moment.

Fair enough.

[edit on 5-1-2008 by babloyi]




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