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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
This is the self-imposed ignorance that I speak of. We had asbolutely no right to go after Saddham because of that NONSENSE which you mentioned. I didn't bother quoting it. It was a pathetic excuse when Bush offered it, and it is still a pathetic excuse when other people try to use it.
As far as the 'war' we are in ... it is with Iraqis. We are lied to constantly and told that it's Saudi terrorists moving into Iraq who are fighting with us.
No. We are fighting and killing men and in some cases, young boys, because they want us out of their country. Plain and simple. They saw us march in years ago, blow up little children and their homes on accident, then patrol their streets for years more. They are sick of it.
We are fighting a war against 'insurgents' who are nothing more than the battle-worn, sickened civillians of an occupied nation.
It makes me SICK that Americans can still justify this. That we can sit around and say 'war? what war?'
Monday 10 December : 27 dead
Baghdad: 8 detainees die in mortar attack at detention centre; gunmen kill 2, Karrada; gunmen kill mental hospital director, Baladiyat; 6 bodies.
Tuz Khurmato: roadside bomb kills 4 policemen.
Mosul: 2 killed by roadside bomb.
Buhriz: 2 killed in clashes.
Basra: woman's body found tortured.
Ramadi: body found.
Sunday 9 December: 23 dead
Baghdad: mortar attack kills 1, al-Rashid; 5 bodies.
Baquba: 3 killed in clashes.
Mosul: 3 killed by US helicopter fire in separate incidents.
Hilla: police chief and guards killed by roadside bomb.
Muqdadiya: 6 bodies.
Wassit: head found.
Saturday 8 December: 26 dead
Baghdad: roadside bomb, shooting, kill 2; 3 bodies.
Baiji: suicide bomber blows up truck, kills 11.
Numaniya: rocket kills family of 4; gunmen shoot dead contractor working for US forces.
Mahmudiya: mortar attack kills child.
Suwayra: 2 bodies.
Friday 7 December: 32 Dead
Baghdad: 3 bodies.
Muqdadiya: suicide bomber kills 16, including 3 children.
Dali Abbas: suicide bomber kills 5 anti-al-Qaeda Sunnis.
Rabiaa: gunmen kill 5 policemen.
Thursday 6 December: 23 dead
Baghdad: bus driver shot dead, Yarmouk; 5 bodies.
Dhuluiya: policeman shot dead.
Kut: woman shot dead.
Rutba: child killed in bomb explosion.
Rabia: 4 neighbourhood police killed in drive-by shooting.
Tel Kaif: 4 killed by US forces.
Kirkuk: man killed by gunmen.
Muqdadiya: gunmen kill US-backed security volunteer.
Talia: gunmen kill farmer.
Saadiya: body found.
Abbasi: body found.
Wednesday 5 December: 45 dead
Baghdad: car bomb kills 19, Karrada; 4 bodies.
Baquba: car bomb kills 6; another civilian dies in separate bombing.
Kirkuk: car bomb kills 3.
Mosul: bombs kill 4.
Kut: gunmen kill sheikh.
Asriya: roadside bomb kills civilian.
Tuz Khurmato: gunmen kill policeman.
Muqdadiya: gunmen kill policeman.
Hay: 3 civilians killed by US forces during raid.
Dhuluiya: body found.
Tuesday 4 December: 26 dead
Baghdad: 6 bodies.
Jalawla: suicide bomber kills 8 at police station.
Mosul: 4 killed in separate incidents; 3 bodies.
Mahaweel: 2 bodies.
Originally posted by codex code
War is wrong!
Why can’t we all get along?
In the end, we all have the same beating heart! The same blood that goes through our veins!
I love my planet, I love my race (even though its messed up
Originally posted by NewWorldOver
^ I'm sorry, but nobody has the time or energy to deal with hokum like that. You manage to come off as completely arrogant and argument-intensive, picking out quote by quote whatever you can disagree with... and none of it is really interesting or relevant.
I'll never understand how some people can sit down and argue with quotes without realizing the futility of it. In the end, as far as threads go, one-sided arguments like that tend to kill the conversation. You over-did it.
[edit on 11-12-2007 by NewWorldOver]
Originally posted by NewWorldOver
Spreading democracy and taking out saddam hussein.
Ok. If you really think the mess we are in was worth ANY of that hokum, it's pointless debating with you.
It would only be described as a dictatorship if the US's scope of control was complete and global. Does the US rule the world? Are you subject to the laws of the US?
It puzzles me why some folks seem to think that the notion of spreading democracy is a bad thing. The truth is, that democracy helps promote not only peace(democratic nations typically don't war with one another), and economic improvement/business. Who are we to impose personal freedom- that's just arrogant I suppose. I can see how terrible these things must seem to some though.
I am not an advocate of the war in Iraq, as it is currently run. The "spreading democracy" line is a talking point, and doesn't reflect the real reason why we are there. It was an economic play- the plan was to quickly remove a persistent pain, stabilize, and get out. Mismanagement, policy wise, and bad advice led to where it is now.
That having been said, the problem I have in this thread is how people like Agit8dChop allow their wants and emotions to trump law and reality. Calling the war illegal has no basis in fact. Sure some lawyers (who are opposed to the war) might have drawn up some papers expressing their opinion. However, the reality of it is that it is not illegal. The UN approved the use of force. Even earlier, the treaty after the 1st Gulf War stated that force could be used if Iraq acted militarily against the multinational forces enforcing resolutions, which he did every time he fired a missile at planes patrolling the no fly zones. Beyond even that, the US is not party to any treaty that would hold them accountable.
The invasion of a single nation by another nation or group of nations is only legal under the UN Charter if such an invasion has been sanctioned by the vote of the UN Security Council. This did not happen in the case of the recent Iraq invasion, since the United States and Great Britain, led by the U.S. Secretary of State Powell, withdrew on March 17, 2003 their resolution to stage such an invasion from consideration by the UN Security Council when they realized that the majority of its members would vote against it. Instead, Powell and others insisted that this approval was unnecessary, since UN Resolutions 687 and 1441 (the latter of 8 November 2002) had already granted this right. However, this is simply not true. As demonstrated by a close examination of the UN Charter and these particular resolutions, there is no possible interpretation that preempts the need for a final decision by the Security Council. Because the U.S. and U.K. withdrew their resolution, there could be no decision permitting an invasion. As a result, the invasion of Iraq was illegal, and those who brought it about can be held responsible for war crimes by an impartial international tribunal, for example the International Criminal Court (ICC). -Written by Edward Jayne and Ronald Kramer
...but I think that the final intent was made in good faith, even if the execution has had flaws. I still don't see how the view that Saddam in power is considered to be a superior situation, than a democratically elected, free society, or that the US are the bad guys for wanting that.
Originally posted by jackinthebox
There's nothing wrong with spreading democracy. This is not democracy. If it was, it would not have to be imposed. In fact, it could not be imposed based upon the very nature of democracy itself. There is the proof that what we are seeing is imperialism. The US imposed its will upon Iraq. There was nothing democratic about it.
Well, if the UN acted on any of the resolutions they past we would not have had to do their job. If the UN did it according to their own rules, it is not illegal, but if the USA acts in its place, doing its job again and again and again.........and again. We are acting illegal??? The resolutions were there. We acted according to the resolutions. We did not need that approval of the UN to do what we did.
So what would you call the democratically elected governments in Afghanistan and Iraq, that have replaced the Taliban and Saddam?