�The Americans are treating us like animals."

"I was talking about Americans dancing in the street.
There were none."


Hey Arch....as you previously mentioned/commented:

"I did not see anyone dancing in the streets after he was caught"

Being a bit more specific in your details or describing of "anyone" would have saved you from clarifying.



"The lead up to the war was the greatest propoganda campaign in the history of t he world."

And History will record it differently.
BTW, propaganda is and has been becoming a greater part of psychological warfare and warfare, in general, for quite sometime...nothing new, hence the comment that History will record otherwise.



regards
seekerof

ps...

There were too Americans 'dancing in the streets'!

Especially the large Iraqi-American population in Deerborn, MI. They know more than any of us how aweful Saddam was.

I remember seeing dancing on the streets, many times. I'm sure there is still footage out there of Iraqis pulling the Saddam statue down with US help, that is one example. And, wow, what a metaphor that was, btw.


I was talking about the lack of Americans dancing in the streets.

It wasn't a 'big deal' when Saddam was caught?? omg! You're kidding, right? How many mass graves won't now be filled...

What good does it do America?

Who do you care more about?

Hundreds of billions? I thought it was 87. Which about 20 of that went into rebuilding, the rest was a mil investment.

The $87 billion was what Bush asked for after he had spent all the other money approprieated, and does not include existing resources that were expended, and future obligations from now till the time we withdraw.

The war may have consumed over half a trillion already, and may cost over 2 trillion before it is over.

There are various sources that all quote different figures, but they are all in the hundreds of billions. My statement was quite accurate.

ArchAngel, no offense but...it just seems like every talking point you bring up is off.

If you look closer at what I say, and the facts it is accurate. You may not like the spin, but that does not make it wrong.

I try to represent an alternative perspective to help you see what you are blind to. All of your efforts to convince me of your position are moot because of what ArchAngel is.


[Edited on 31-1-2004 by ArchAngel]

There were too Americans 'dancing in the streets'!

And I would bet that many want America to get out now.

My point was that getting Saddam was a very minor point compared to the WMD hysteria.

"Alternative perspective" this:

"Torture victims begin lining up to confront Saddam at his trial" Jan. 4, 2004
Link:
www.intelmessages.org...

Exceprt:

"BAGHDAD - A ship�s captain dipped into nitric acid wants to offer his wrecked body as evidence of Saddam Hussein�s crimes. A janitor wants to tell the world how the dictator ordered her husband killed and her son tortured.

A new tribunal created to try top former Iraqi officials doesn�t have custody of Saddam. It doesn�t have courtrooms, judges or prosecutors. Things like charges and witness lists remain months away.

But already Iraqis are lining up for a chance to testify against the man who to them personifies the evil of a regime that destroyed its people. One group in Baghdad alone, the Iraqi Human Rights Society, has received 7,000 complaints from people who suffered under Saddam�s bloody rule.

Iraqis like Abdul-Wahid al-Obeidi, 63. A merchant marine captain, he was arrested in 1971 for doling out religious and political advice aboard his ship. He was dipped in nitric acid and left for dead, and his family was persecuted in the decades after his survival.

Iraqis like Nuria Bash Agha Yassin, 47. A janitor at a home for the elderly, she still mourns her husband 20 years after his execution and cares for the son who hasn�t been well since three months of electric shocks in an Iraqi torture chamber.

By the end of the 1960s, Obeidi had a good job at the helm of a ship.



One day, a sailor asked him if God would approve of the purges of political opponents being carried out by Saddam�s Baath Party. Obeidi told the man he didn�t think God would. That comment later found its way into a secret police report.

In June 1971, Obeidi sailed into the port of Umm Qasr to find police waiting for him. He was taken to Baghdad�s Qasr al-Nihaye, Palace of the End. For more than a year, he was beaten and given electric shocks........"



regards
seekerof

"Torture victims begin lining up to confront Saddam at his trial"


And what does this do for America?

Arch....have you written your state senators or congressmen or state representitives?...Ask them!
I can't suffeciently nor adequately answer your question in any degree that will be satisfactory or to your liking.


regards
seekerof

I gave you the benefit of the doubt a couple weeks ago, since then I have silently read just about everything you have spewed on this site without comment until NOW...

You are, IMHO, the worst kind of bull#ter. You claim "Love for America" but slash at her heart in EVERY POST.

You claim objectivity but you are the SINGLE MOST one sided, SUBJECTIVE poster I have seen here in a coon's age. Your credibility is ZERO...

At least the rest of the America hater/bashers here are men/woman enough to admit their distaste for America but NOT YOU, no, you couch your resentment and hatred in bull#, transparent poppycock statements like the DREK you have filled this thread with.

The next time you go to see the Imam I want you to ask him for some integrity, it'll do you some good lad.

M...

I can't suffeciently nor adequately answer your question in any degree that will be satisfactory or to your liking.

You mean to your liking.

The answer is nothing.

At least the rest of the America hater/bashers here are men/woman enough to admit their distaste for America but NOT YOU, no, you couch your resentment and hatred in bull#, transparent poppycock statements like the DREK you have filled this thread with.


I hate what is wrong with America, not the nation, or the people.

Being against what is wrong with America, and loving the people and nation are not mutually exclusive. We are not perfect, and if we fail to fix what is wrong it will only get worse.

Your opinions are noted.....

No Arch, my exact meaning was not "my" liking...I meant it exactly as I wrote it...."your liking."
DO your part and let your state congressmen and senators know how you feel. You want change, help bring it by writing and voting such.



regards
seekerof

DO your part and let your state congressmen and senators know how you feel. You want change, help bring it by writing and voting such.

One more ignored letter to the suits in Washington will do nothing, one vote changes nothing. As it is a democracy of sorts the only way to get anything done in America is to change the minds of the people.

I would rather fail than to not try.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
I hate what is wrong with America, not the nation, or the people.

Being against what is wrong with America, and loving the people and nation are not mutually exclusive. We are not perfect, and if we fail to fix what is wrong it will only get worse.

Your opinions are noted.....

Save it for those gullible enough to beleive it dude... You have porven otherwise time and time again...

I find it interesting how some folks when confronted with the truth of their own actions are so deep in denial or camoflage that they make statements just like the one above...

WHAT DO YOU THINK AMERICA IS? It IS the people. When we do whatever we MUST do to protect the greatest single nation on Earth it is incumbant upon you to support our men and women who are fighting and giving all they have to give OR stand up and make your opposition known.

Hiding behind a false banner of "I love this country just not what it's doing" is like saying I love my wife but I can't stand her personality and then going out and publically HUMILIATING her with lies at every opportunity.

THINK about ALL the total CRAP you have posted to this board, I would easily beleive that you are an Al Quiada (sp?) operative based on what I have seen from you.

But, like I said earlier, at least the enemy openly ADMITS he is the enemy!

m...



[Edited on 1-31-2004 by Springer]

When we do whatever we MUST do to protect the greatest single nation on Earth it is incumbant upon you to support our men and women who are fighting and giving all they have to give OR stand up and make your opposition known.


The invasion, and occupation of Iraq did not give us any security. It only motivates our enemies more.

"support our troops" was Hitlers favorite line for silencing critics. The troops only do what they are told by their leaders, so the statement implies we should all do exactly as they tell us, rather than the other way around.

What you describe sounds more like communism than Democracy.

After you learn to read minds come back and tell me what I think, and what I hate.

A little insignificant, extremely uncirculated poll taken in Iraq. As a 'poll', that many feel is of no bearing or import, you can use or view it as you see fit:

"Iraqi poll results regarding Saddam Hussein's capture"
Link:
healingiraq.blogspot.com...

Exceprt:

"1)What was your reaction to Saddam Hussein's capture?

Overwhelming joy 59%
Shock and confusion 20%
Sadness 16%
None of my concern 5%

2)Are you personally convinced that it was really Saddam who was captured?

Yes 86.9%
No 13.1%

3)Do you think that Saddam deserves a fair trial?

Yes 84%
No 16%

4)Do you prefer that Saddam be tried by:

An Iraqi court? 60%
An Iraqi court with International advisors? 15%
An International court of justice? 25%

5)What is the fair judgement you believe Saddam deserves?

Execution 56%
Imprisonment 25%
Clemency 19%

6)What do you think a speedy trial of Saddam would achieve?

It would prevent an internal schism or conflict 45%
It would ensure security and stability 30%
It would increase chaos 14%
It would help end the occupation 10%
Others 1%

7)How do you think Saddam's capture would affect the resistance?

Decrease resistance activities 53%
Increase resistance activities 27%
Cessation of resistance 20%

8)How do you see Saddam's capture?

He surrendered without resistance 52.4%
He was drugged or anaesthetized 31.5%
He was taken by surprise 12.6%
Others 3.4%

9)Which is more important to you?

Providing security 54.9%
Providing fuel 35.8%
Saddam's capture 34.4%
Providing electricity 28.8%
Improving the economic situation 5.3%

10)Do you agree that those who suffered from the regime should be compensated?

Yes 12%
No 88%

11)How do you consider Saddam's policies and actions on the following issues:

A)The Iraq-Iran war:

Crime 77%
Justified action 23%

B)Invading Kuwait:

Crime 79%
Justified action 21%

C)Attacking Israel in 1991:

Crime 18%
Justified action 82%

D)Mass graves:

Crime 81%
Justified action 19%

E)Gasing the Kurds:

Crime 87%
Justified action 13%

F)Forced deportation:

Crime 82%
Justified action 18%

G)Killing religious and national figures:

Crime 83%
Justified action 17%"




regards
seekerof

Iraqi poll results regarding Saddam Hussein's capture

I would like to see the poll regarding the occupation, and the tactics used. But polls can be made to say anything.

I was not trying imply that a majority would want Saddam back, but that there are fewer people who want America ruling them.

The vast majority would rather have an elected government, and a legitimate police force rather than an occupational puppet regime, and American soldiers.

Whoever suggested that the Iraqis liked us?

What nation(other than Israel) did they hate more than America?

Originally posted by ArchAngel
The invasion, and occupation of Iraq did not give us any security. It only motivates our enemies more.

"support our troops" was Hitlers favorite line for silencing critics. The troops only do what they are told by their leaders, so the statement implies we should all do exactly as they tell us, rather than the other way around.

What you describe sounds more like communism than Democracy.

After you learn to read minds come back and tell me what I think, and what I hate.

Let me tell you something Slick, I don't need to read minds to spot BULL# and propaganda when I see it.

In my 20 years of being a businessman who deals with people I have learned to UNDERSTAND motives based on FACTS.

YOUR posts are the facts, your attitude is spilled ALL OVER this board in several forums and I have figured out what you are about from that.

NO HIDING from yourself when it's all IN WRITING.

America's goal was not necessarily to enhance our immediate security either. Long term security for the FREE WORLD has UNDENIABLY been enhanced by the downfall of your personal hero, Saddam Hussein.

The mission was PUNISHMENT for 11 years of violation of the agreement that saved his ass from total destruction back in 1991. He begged us like a scared little girl to NOT invade Iraq back in '91 and promised to be a good little fascist but immediately broke his promises. THAT'S why we chased him into the rat hole he crawled out of without a fight, again like a scared little girl.

COWARDS and freaks like him are what the world needs LESS of, hell NONE of. We eliminated one and have another one hiding like the bitch he is as well.

Occupation is REQUIRED to give the WEAK people who couldn't free themselves a chance to get their BALLS and their BRAINS back so they can ultimately decide their own future through legitimate elections.

If we pulled out today it would take about a week for the couple thousand remaining Saddam loyalists to whip the weak kneed population back into submission with lame scare tactics and bullets. Iraq would be RIGHT BACK where it was before we went in.

Obviously YOU are either a Saddam sympathiser or you have nary a clue about the reality of broken people.

m...

[Edited on 1-31-2004 by Springer]

Obviously YOU are either a Saddam sympathiser or you have nary a clue about the reality of broken people.

I could care less about Saddam myself.

You equate support for the war with support for America.

The two are not mutually exclusive. I can be against the war, and everything that led to it, and still love America.

It is my perception that I care MORE than you because the bad from this far outweighs the good.

The fact that we rolled through Iraq faster than support could follow proves that there was no threat. Saddam was a toothless old tiger with nothing left but a growl.

The ends do not justify the means.

As if the end had any value for America.

It almost seems like you care more for them than for our boys.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
I could care less about Saddam myself.

You equate support for the war with support for America.

The two are not mutually exclusive. I can be against the war, and everything that led to it, and still love America.

It is my perception that I care MORE than you because the bad from this far outweighs the good.

The fact that we rolled through Iraq faster than support could follow proves that there was no threat. Saddam was a toothless old tiger with nothing left but a growl.

The ends do not justify the means.

As if the end had any value for America.

It almost seems like you care more for them than for our boys.

Now your utter lack of cogent thought is coming out...

This is rich.

The above quote pretty much says it all... YOU are a hob goblin in dire need of an enima. I mean REALLY! That doesn't even make any fewkin' sense!

IF you are 15 years old I forgive you, if, however, you are of age, I PITY you...

m...

I LOVE THESE TOPICS!!!! they are my favorite. I give up trying to defend this army that i'm in, and now i'm just going to grossly agree with everything. That in mind, i now have to go beat my Iraqi slaves and later i was planning on playing dentist and kicking childrens teeth out. Maybe i could get some feedback eh? Wow that sounds about right huh? I mean that is what you Anti-American F**ks wanna hear right? well actually it is more like what you'd like to believe huh? HAHAHA buncha sissies.