The Catholic religion blatantly defies God and his teachings. leads its members to perdition...why?

Saints are not mediators or divinities. Any more than I am mediator or divinity for the world when I pray for the world. They are part of our community, united with all Christians through the church which is the body of Christ, and as thus we all pray for each other.

I don't understand why you are equating the role of Christ as the source of salvation and sole mediator to god, with the role of fellow Christians praying for all people TO Christ (if you don't like the words of the epistle-writers, look at Matt. 5:44 - we are commanded to pray for each other by Jesus).

If someone asks me to pray for them I do not turn and refuse, telling them to pray for themselves - that strikes me as being peculiarly uncharitable. The very wording of the Lord's Prayer is cast in the first person plural, not singular ("we", not "I"), and also see Matt. 18:20.

Why enjoin us to communal prayer unless mutual intercession had some efficacy? What is the point of communal prayer if we do not pray for anyone but ourselves in that prayer? Speciousness gone mad. We clearly pray for all people, and clearly are under an obligation to do so.

Do you think that the obligation to pray for each other disappears when one is one granted one's eternal bliss?

How does it violate the mediatorship of Christ if we ask someone to pray for us?

Cheers.

Rob.

Originally posted by defcon5
No matter if the Church wants to paint a nice pretty facade on that practice and call it “intersession” or not, you’re still not praying the way that Christ said to pray. Only Christ is to “Intercede” between you and God the Father.

We are called to pray for each other. It says so in scripture. Asking Mary or the other saints in heaven to pray for us to God is NOT going against scripture. It's doing exactly what it says to do. See the scripture quotes below ...

Oh - If you really believe what you wrote then you had best NEVER pray for anyone else ever again. Afterall, YOU are intercessing for that person to God when you pray for them.

Originally posted by defcon5
There would be no problem with asking Mary to pray for you if she were alive to ask in person.

You are interjecting your own belief system onto scripture. People, be they 'dead' or alive, certainly can pray to God for us. Those who already stand before God certainly can pray for us and offer our prayers to Him. They are aware of what is going on here. So are our angels. It stands to reason that they could, and would, offer their prayerful support.

Prayers for the dead: Tobit 12:12;2, maccabees 12:39-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18.

Dead who stand before God are aware of our situations: Matthew 22:20, Luke 15:10; 1 Cor 4:9; Hebrews 12:1.

They intercede for us living: Jeremiah 15:1; 2 Maccabees 15:14; Rev 6:9-10.

Intermediaries who present our prayers to God - Rev 5:8

Appear on earth to interact with us - 1 Sam 28:12-15, Sirach 46:20, 2 Maccabees 15:13-16, Matthew 17:103 and 27:50-53, Rev 11:3

Guardian angels: Psalm 34-7, 91:11; Matthew 18:10; Acts 12:15; Hebrews 1:14.

Angels aware of our thoughts and needs: Luke 15:10, 1 Corinthians 4:9.

Angels participate with God - Rev 1:4

Angels are intermediaries- Tobit 12:12, 15; Rev 8:3-4

Tobit 12:12, 15 "I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, i was likewise present with you .... I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One".

2 Maccabees 15:13-14 - "Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God."

Revelation 1:4 - "Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne."

Revelation 5:8 - "The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints".

Revelation 8:3-4 "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

(the dead speak to God about affairs of the living)
Revelation 6:9-10 "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Soverign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"

(Living speaking with the dead)
Matthew 17:1-3 - "Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transigured before them and his face shown like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him"

(angels in presence of God are aware of our needs)
Matthew 18:10 "see that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in Heaven".

At best its Necromancy, at worst it’s worshiping a false God,

Worshipping the One True God and asking those who already behold His face in Heaven to interceed for us is NOT worshipping a false God. And it doesn't even come close to necromancy.

Originally posted by d60944
and this isn't really a comparative theology board....

You are right ... it's not.

Seriously ... WHY is this thread still here at ATS? It's just another anti-Catholic thread that is really a scripture spitting contest. ALL of this has already been discussed at BTS many times.

[edit on 11/9/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by defcon5
Look its pretty plain in the words of Christ himself how we are supposed to pray.

They can attempt to justify that to their hearts content, but it is plainly against the word of Jesus Christ himself. We both know that Christ alone justifies us in the presence of the Father through his sacrifice, and he stands opposed to Satan who accuses us before the father. There is no other mediator that can do that job, because there is no other person who lived a sinless life then was sacrificed for our sins, not even a saint.
[edit on 11/9/2007 by defcon5]

I totally agree ,i actually should have read all the pages last night on your replies as i would have had no need to reply yesterday as you see it the same as i do.
_______________________________________________________________
And then there were some other people who are reading us wrong,or so understand us incorrectly ,well imo..

I have a relationship with God,i go straight to Him knowing He gave His Son for us as a last chance for flesh.Flesh reveres itself and there is only One worth that.Why are there so many people after growing up in these churches that they turn away from God? Catholics always reckon we are bashing them,why? Something is surely wrong as most people that turned from God claim they used to have a Catholic/Orthodox/Reformed upbringing.

I agree that anyone can turn from God no matter if they had Catholic,Orthodox,Reformed upbringing,or so the rest of denomination counts as well...3000 of them.

Someone mentioned up here that they pray for people as Catholics believe, well I do not turn away anyone who asks me to pray for them ,but those that ask for help must remember they should at that time know they give their life to God,if a person cannot give his life to God we can pray until we red,the one you pray for needs to know it is life changing and that their life must be handed over to God.

No man will have God in their lives if they don't choose God themselves.I am sure there are prayer groups in all denominations ,we have one,but when we pray it is to God,not to Mary.

So some pray to Mary ,that is fine ,your choice..freewill some others pray to straight to God.So if both prayers work in everyones own opinion why are Christians fighting among themselves? God's Kingdom is not/cannot be divided and as children of God we all should follow what we feel works with all faith.

More than 3000 denominations and each think they have the way to God,don't we all believe in The Trinity,we all wanna be with God forever ..so we must just trust with all we can and we will overcome all that was hidden by men.And no it's not only the Catholics that hid Gospels/Books but others as well..every group can get attacked spiritually and be infiltrated by evil men,so we need to be on guard and find them out.Believe and the way will be shown,we are Christians,we believe in The Almighty.

Bye Bye

Originally posted by defcon5
Ok, now you’re just playing dumb or devils advocate.

I'm doing neither. I'm trying to establish basic premises. So, if Mary were alive you would have no problem asking her to pray for you?

Meaning you would have no problem with her interceding on your behalf if she were alive?



Eric

[edit on 9-11-2007 by EricD]

Sorry. Odd double post.

[edit on 9-11-2007 by EricD]

reply to post by EricD

why ask her to pray for you when you can pray yourself? that is the problem with the Catholic religion. they have put all these other middlemen that youu pray to so that they relay the message. it is not how God planned it. it was changed by the Catholic religion a long time ago and now you..and others like you think it is correct. it saddens me.

reply to post by defcon5


It would help to keep this discussion civil if you wouldn't ascribe motives to others or tell them what they know or don't know.


Eric

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Seriously ... WHY is this thread still here at ATS? It's just another anti-Catholic thread that is really a scripture spitting contest. ALL of this has already been discussed at BTS many times.

[edit on 11/9/2007 by FlyersFan]

It should be quite clear that I'm not keen on anti-Catholic threads, but I think that this is a legitimate thread in that the OP believes that there was a deliberate cover up by the Church by people in charge and they are knowingly teaching a false doctrine.

Seems to fit the conspiracy angle.

Eric

One example i will use why we must pray to God and the reason why some do not pray to Mary,this is how Jesus told us.

5:"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6:But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7:And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8

o not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9"This, then, is how you should pray:
"'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Here Jesus taught and showed us how to pray and if people go through every sentence of "Our Father" this prayer takes time as we apply all our praise,needs to Him.

There are so many people who just ramble this prayer of as words and it is not,though the words of the prayer stays the same our needs and sins change which we apply to the prayer everyday.

Here Jesus showed us how where did he say pray to Mary? I am sorry can someone give me the verse,i have been looking in my Bible but cannot find it and i know someone here will have the verse/s.

Thanks

[edit on 11/9/2007 by qonone]

reply to post by icybreeze


As the whole of the Bible is a mass of contradictions,it's hard for any faith based on it to have solid foundations.The teachings of Jesus are also full of contradictions.

A lot of their teachings also come from Paul,not Jesus and many followers don't even realise this!

It should also be remembered that the early Christian church is not the Roman Catholic Church we have today.The Christian faith has always had different sects,the Catholic one became the most dominant.
Also,many early Christians beliveved that Jesus was just a man,not the actual Son of God,his divinity only appeared after the 1st Nicea Council.


There is also the fact that their are many laws of God that are ignored today,such as only wearing certain types of clothing,and not eating shellfish.Many of them seem absurd or appear to have no relevence in the world today.But they are ther Laws of God! and billions of Christians happily ignore them,or don't even know about them!!

[edit on 9-11-2007 by jakyll]

Originally posted by jakyll
Also,many early Christians beliveved that Jesus was just a man,not the actual Son of God,his divinity only appeared after the 1st Nicea Council.

ok, we need to remember that Dvinci Code was just a decent book and worse as a movie.
From what I have known Jesus was crucified because he claimed to be the Messiah and the Jews didn't believe him and saw him as a threat.

reply to post by defcon5


The Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Church are not one and the same.

The HRC refers strictly to the Church of Rome,the Diocese of Rome,the Holy See or the Apostolic See;the local diocese that was founded by St Paul and St Peter.

The RCC is in 'full communion' with the Bishop of Rome,the Pope,but is not the same.

The HRC ruled over the Papal States in Italy before the country was united as one in the 1800's.The Catholic faith that spread through Europe was not that of the Vatican,but it had their blessing.

reply to post by icybreeze

ok, we need to remember that Dvinci Code was just a decent book and worse as a movie.

Very true.
But what i said has been widley known for many years,long before that book ever came out!

If you look up the 1st & 2nd Councils of Nicea you will see what i mean.


There can also be more than one Messiah.A king.A priest.A prophet.The Bible is full of people who were anointed as a messiah.

[edit on 9-11-2007 by jakyll]

Originally posted by icybreeze
reply to post by EricD

 

why ask her to pray for you when you can pray yourself?

Why ask friends and family to pray for you when you can pray yourself?

Eric

I'm just throwing this out here. This is not meant to be taken seriously, just some idle speculation.

I think that the problem is with the nomenclature of 'prayer'. It seems that prayer is taken as a means by Catholics to communicate with those that reside in Heaven.

Prayer seems to be taken by some non-Catholics as Worship of God.

If the term 'prayer' was not used and instead a term, say, inner locution, were used, would that make it more palatable?

It seems that there is, amongst some, a problem with definition of terms.

Just a thought.


Eric

reply to post by EricD


I have this link for ya,its the Catholic view of what Prayer is.

The Holy Roman Church in prophecy part one. 600BCE

Daniel 7:23, 25

Daniel asks an angel for an explanation about the "fourth beast" (7:19).
"7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."

7:25 "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time".

These verses are telling us that the religious fourth Beast is a fourth kingdom different to the previous three of the Roman Empire which devours the whole earth, treads it down, and breaks it in pieces. Four characteristics and one time period are clearly stated.
It shall a) be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time;
b) speak words against the most High;
c) change times; and
d) change laws.

Investigation:

a). In Genesis 1:14 'days' as a period of time can refer to 'years', and in Strong's Concordance Greek word #2250 "days" gives 'day, age, time, years', confirming this biblical exchanging of time values.
An ancient year consisted of 360 days, but as 'days' can refer to 'years', then the value of "Times" from Daniel 7:25 can equal 360 years.
So the given formula of "Time, and Times, and the dividing of Time = Total years" represents the mathematical
equation T + Tx2 + T/2 = Total years.
Solving this drives 360 + 720 +180 = 1260 years.

Thus a fourth kingdom different to the previous three kingdoms lasts for 1,260 years.

The dominant European country, the Roman Empire, consisted of three separate periods. Was there a fourth Roman kingdom different to the previous three, and did it last 1,260 years ?

Yes. The fourth empire was a religiously run dominion, and was ruled by the title of Pope rather than Emperor.
(A subtle change from a Military Empire to a Religious State.)
After the Western Empire was dissolved in 476 AD, Rome itself fell in 546.
King Charlemagne gave his new kingdom the name Roman Empire in 800.
Otto the Great of Saxony also gave his kingdom the name Roman Empire in 962.
This lasted until 1806 and was renamed the Holy Roman Empire in the 12th century.

Thus from the fall of Rome in 546 (and after the third Roman Empire) until the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 was 1,260 years. (1806 - 546 = 1260)

The Holy Roman Christian Church is the biblically described fourth beast-kingdom. This Church introduced and insisted that its followers worship the biblically named woman "Mary" and perpetuated the idea that the OT Messiah was 'the Christ Jesus'.

The Holy Roman Church in prophecy part two. 600BCE

..continued
From an Old Testament Hebrew perspective, historically, did this Church:
b) speak words against the most High; c) change times; and d) change laws ?

Yes, to all three.

b). Speak words against Jehovah - the Hebrew God.
A "Son" and "a Mother of God" have been added to Jehovah's original religion of only one God.
Pope Gregory I initiated the teaching of Purgatory for those who die as Roman Catholics.

These teachings are not from the words of the original Hebrew god YHWH, nor are they found in the Old Testament.

c). Change times
Pope Gregory XIII introduced the Gregorian Calendar.
Thursday Oct 4 1582 was followed by Friday Oct 15 1582

Time itself was literally changed by 11 days !
d). Change laws
The Roman Emperors and subsequent Popes introduced their own religious Doctrines and Laws that derived a different type of "Christianity" from that spoken of by the original Nazarene movement of the first Century AD. They even wrote their own version of the Bible - the Latin Vulgate.
Under Pope Gregory 1 the position of Pope became the supreme authority of the western Church instead of the Hebrew God (or even Jesus Christ).

Concluding in 1563, the Council of Trent passed numerous disciplinary decrees as well as doctrinal decisions such as the doctrine of Justification; the extent of the Canon of the Scriptures and the authenticity of the Vulgate; the theology of the Sacraments, especially those of the Eucharist and Marriage; Purgatory; the Veneration of the Saints; and Indulgences.
The rise of a world Religion being Daniel's fourth Beast is therefore the Holy Roman Catholic Church, as it historically confirmed in 1563 what the angelic messenger describes.

"shall devour the whole earth" = the spread of the Catholic religion around the world.
"shall tread it down" = the forced religious values of this Church on the world's various populations via such avenues as the inquisition.
"and break it in pieces" = the many religious wars fought by the Catholic Church and the deliberate destruction of cultures such as the Inca of South America.

The Holy Roman Church in prophecy part three. 95CE

Revelations 17:10-12
"17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Chronological Summary

"Seven kings" = 7 religious faiths of the Mediterranean region from a 5000 BCE to 95 CE religious perspective.
"Five have fallen" (ie. been superseded) = 1-5.
"One is" = 6.
"Other not yet come" = 7.
The "eighth" = 8. The "ten horns (kings)" = - -.

1) Babylonian gods
2) Egypt gods
3) Judaism
4) Greek Mythical gods
5) Roman Mythical gods
6) [B](Roman) Christianity[/B]
7) Islam
- - Waldensian, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians,
- - Quakers, Baptists, Congregationalists, Mennonites, Methodists.
8) Mormonism

Source: www.pphcstudygroup.org.au...

reply to post by Eddy_P


What about the Phoenician God's?
And the Carthagenian Gods?
And the Persian God's?
And the Etruscan Gods?