Big Brother taking over in UK

Originally posted by CyberSEAL
Do you recall how the United States was formed? In case you forgot, it was men with guns who stood up to an unfair and tyranical government (your's, lol!).

wasn't the US formed when immigrants came from england, ireland, russia etc, ?
men wanted prosperity for themselves and their family, to live the 'American Dream'

This is another example of the nanny state eliminating freedom of choice.

Whilst recognising that there is a percentage of teenagers who appear to have little or no respect for anything or anyone, this is hardly a new phenomonom.

There have been groups of teenagers who have felt marginalised from society and have been judged to be unruly and direspectful by society for generations.
Teddy Boys ripping up cinema's.
Mods and Rockers fighting on the beaches.
Punk Rockers spitting in the face of society.
Ravers on Eeezy Street.

Come on get real.
How many people who were actively involved in those and countless other sub-cultures went on to pay an active part in society.
How many people who wanted to tune in and drop out have become active members of the establishment?
How many people remained true to their values and have driven what were once considered crackpot or extreme viewpoints to the forefront of modern politics or contributed to the evolution of society?

Yes, some will never contribute to society.
There always has been this element.
I have travelled extensively in the UK and every town has a percentage of individuals who milk the benefit system and seem to spend every day in the pub, (oh how I wish I could afford to!).
These people come from every age group.
Why?
Because the benefit system has become an easy cash cow to milk and is no longer the "crutch" offered to the needy that it was intended to be.

We also have the introduction of the minimum wage which now seems mandatory for every job advertised.
We have a never ending influx of foreign workers willing to work for minimum wage.
We have a government, (and an opposition who appear to be just as bad if not worse), who believe they know best in everything and believe they have a divine right to force people to act and behave in a particular way.
Dissension is not allowed.
We have an education system that discourages individual thought and will not tolerate anything outside of The National Curriculum.
It fails to stimulate a large percentage of pupils and helps foster a feeling of alienation.
We have the PC do-gooders Brigade who believe they have a right to dictate what people should think and say.

And guess what, these are the people who have helped create the very environment for these alienated, disrespectful, ill educated teenagers to flourish.

Alienated teenager, I've been there.
I'm still there, I've just learnt to fight from the inside.

Edit: My bad grammar and spelling.


[edit on 5-11-2007 by Freeborn]

[edit on 5-11-2007 by Freeborn]

Perfectly reasonable and it won't even affect children with responsible parents. Why do you let children run around wild with nothing to do in the first place? When parents fail in their responsibilities there has to be some kind of control. Dropping out of school is guaranteed failure for most. Allowing them to drop out is child abuse.

reply to post by Grimholt


Give me liberty, or give me death!!

The day they impose this in the US is the day the oppressed get free toilet paper, because I'd be damned before I'd be fined for not having a job.

Slavery! Oppression! Control!

ABSOLUTE POWER!

I have a bill of rights, but its practically worthless if you're made a target and scapegoat. What, they are actually thinking that fining and jailing someone without a job is going to fly for long? Once they are *EXPLETIVE* into submission in prison by billy buck, then what?

It serves no purpose other than to enslave the populace.



-Knight

reply to post by Grimholt


glad my parents got me out of that country when i was 7 years old-------by that age i had already got quite a hate jag on for it----would have ended up in its prison system.i can see why everyone needs to have work to do when they are younger----keep you too busy to find the time to vandalize or roam in the gangs----britain does have a serious crime problem-----but not all kids are bad why do they all have to be painted with the same brush ?i used to hate that me getting told off for some other jerk's deeds---same thing as i experienced as an adult for 34 years serving the military----not hard to see why some of the officers are shot by their own troops when we go to war.what about kids that have rich parents to keep them forever---do they have to work as well ?---nwo wont be happy till they work us all to death as in the concentration camps?

reply to post by Blaine91555


child abuse to not send your kids to school?depends what kind of school it is and or if your kid is a marshall arts trained best to keep your hands off me individual------very little of my time in academic sdhool was spent learning anything else except how to defend myself from physical assault both by fellow students and "teachers"----i still marval when others tell me how fantastic their school days were----they must be from another planet ?we have relatives that tried living in ireland for one year---thats all they could stand with watching their two kids come home bloodied and beaten everyday----had to pull them out of school altogether for most of the school year till leaving.

hmmm, teens who are leaching off the dole, spending nights mooching around 'bored' getting pregnant, fighting, mugging, joyriding and being general little wa...wasters will have to do something with their lives instead of expecting a free ride.
Oh I am so sad

Well, I agree with this in the current system... however I would rather change our current system to work a bit like this:


Currently, its super easy to get benefits. You turn up and fill in a form with your basic details. Job done.

Then you have to go every 2 weeks, with a little diary of what you done each week to find a job. You only need to put down " 3 things " per week...

What did you do?
Checked newspaper

What happened?
Nothing

What will you do next?
Check next week.

The above is perfectly acceptable.

Then you get your £44 a week....



I would stop this practice, completely. I would have people doing "volunteer" type stuff, cleaning up parks... wiping off graffiti... etc, for minimum wage rather than just checking a stupid diary.

This would give people a bit more cash to spend, it would give them a better chance of finding a "real job" later on, it would also give them a bit of pride back! However, the best bit... it would stop the lazy gits who bum around all day on the bench outside Poundland drinking Tennents Super!

(obviously this does NOT apply to people who REALLY cant work, as theyre not on Job Seekers, theyre on Incapacity benefit.. and thats a whole other issue)

[edit on 5/11/07 by dawa]

Originally posted by Knightshadowz
The day they impose this in the US is the day the oppressed get free toilet paper, because I'd be damned before I'd be fined for not having a job.

You mis-read the OP...it's not the case of being fined for just being unintentionally jobless, but for refusing to play an active part in society in developing tradeable educational and vocational skills whilst expecting that same society to fund a life on the dole.

The welfare state is a harsh mistress and it takes a great deal of effort and skill to survive on in terms of adapting to a barely attainable cost of living alone on the princely sum of £48 per week for everything...food, bills clothes, etc, never mind the fortnightly interrogation, and if you slip up on any detail (feigned illness or other reason for not taking a paid job) then you are immediately sanctioned to a 40% cut in your dole cheque...believe me, life on the dole is no bed of roses by any means, I've been there and have the t-shirt

reply to post by dawa


I was on dole-funded engineering-training at a local tech college before I started uni a few years ago and was informed at the start that I would have to quit the course which would have enabled me to get a well paid CAD job if a suitable position became available at the local supermarket as a shelf-stacker...a bloody stupid system that focusses solely on the short term in that sense.

Those who claim benefits and also work as a community volunteer should be rewarded with an extra £10 a week (at least) on top of the regular 2weekly cheque....a tenner a week doesn't sound like much, but it can mean the difference between starving and a full-belly for a few days



[edit on 5-11-2007 by citizen smith]

I think the way some of you are making grate britan sound is disgusting we are a conrty of grate knowledge intelligence and wisdom.
We are not like taking big brother to heart and if i am right the USA have a big brother as well and it is as popular as our one.
I have read a few of the posts on this site and meny others and would like to say some of them are dam right rude on the UK i think some of you guys should think of what you post be for you say it.

I think the USA dont like England besauce they are scared of intelligence!

Now i bet that dont go nice with some of you so just think!!

And to the people that have done nothing this not to you but to them who have done some thing!

I wasn't overjoyed to hear this news but a little thought has led me to believe this isn't a terrible idea.

School is mandatory up until 16 years of age, a couple more years isn't going to hurt anyone or turn this country into the "Big Brother" state people like to call it.

My only concern is the creative arts, ie musicians and artists who choose to be unemployed but work unpaid for themselves, but I would imagine that will be addressed.

These laws seem to be targetting the 'intentionally unemployed', the people who will not even look for work but roll up to a job centre every fortnight to ensure their giro.

If you look at the wider global economic picture, then you can understand why these measures to 'coerce' the career-jobless into work are being considered...recession, and one far bigger than the niggly little 'oh i've got negative equity on me 'ouse' recession of the early 90's

The sub-prime market is riddled with Enron-style accounting US and current news via the BBC is that one of the biggest commercial banks has at least £8billion in dodgy accounts being held...enough to make Northern Rock look like a nice queue to join for a day-out

What im assuming that children that are made to stay on at school till there 18 are either

a/ if they failed there GCSE's spend the remaining 2 years working towards getting a pass or resiting them and then moving on to A-levels
b/those that passed first time round are allowed on to do there A-levels

if this is the case im all for them staying in school till there 18 as when they do leave they can then either go on to college/uni but if not and they go looking for a job those A -levels will increase there chances of getting a job, because to be honest i know GCSE's count for nothing when going for a unskilled job as i found out when i went on to do my apprenticeship in motor vehicle body repair and mechanics i turned up at college with my record of achievement passed it over to be told nice GCSE's results but all you need to get on this course is answer the mathematics and English questions on this sheet, so with A-levels at least they count.

as for schools i think something should be done about a small minority of teachers who treat there pupils like dirt at the end of the day respect is earned but it goes both ways, when i was at high school i could count the subjects on one hand i enjoyed which were physics, P.E, chemistry and I.T it wasn't just a case of enjoyed the subjects it was also down to the teachers that taught these classes.

as for people on the dole if there made to do some voluntary work like cleaning up the area they live in it might give them some respect for the area and made them think twice before spoiling it by vandalising and dropping litter.

Originally posted by citizen smith

Those who claim benefits and also work as a community volunteer should be rewarded with an extra £10 a week (at least) on top of the regular 2weekly cheque....a tenner a week doesn't sound like much, but it can mean the difference between starving and a full-belly for a few days



[edit on 5-11-2007 by citizen smith]

Id rather they were paid minimum wage for the work, they would end up with more money than an extra tenner a week... plus it would really be " a job " and as we all know .. its easier to get employed once youve allready got a job!


Also, I dont really include people who are doing courses at college / university / etc as being "unemployed bums", they are "student bums" who are actively attempting to better themselves and hopefully get a job which will benefit society at the end of it!

[edit on 5/11/07 by dawa]

After school i went into work but many don't and i want to give a short story of a friend that didn't.

My friend was someone who took two years after school to simply decide what he wanted to do. He is now at university studying electrical engineering. If he hadn't had those two years i seriously doubt he would be where he is, in fact i'd bet he would be working behind a counter at McDonalds because it was in those two years he found someone that inspired him. He found direction becuase he didn't have the pressure of school, work or college on him.

It is rediculous charging someone simply to get them into work or study. I agree with removing people from long term benefit who don't try to get off it but not everyone is a waster.

Just my thoughts.

they will propose umpteen warnings, then call you in for an interview a few times, then more warning letters...they deal with idol threats. There are nowhere near enough police to enforce anything - the amount of violence, racism, bigotry and underage drinking going on with under 16's nowadays is unreal.

No none of the Govs speech will be implemented in Scotland... The Scottish Gov has said it will not implement this new law to raise the age from 16 to 18.., Which I may add has been welcomed from Teaching Unions and Parent Unions up and down Scotland. Think this is going to create conflict between Westminster and Holyrood..

Also another thing, You do know under european law Children @ the age of 16 in the UK are classed as adults? At the age of 16 they can choose weither or not to leave School. And most leave school because the skills their are being taught do not suit what they want to get out of life.

It is either learn our way or we class you as a troublesome teenager ( and yes I have seen cases of this happening),This Gov needs to remember that they wont be in power alot longer so they are trying to grab short straws really.

I would stop this practice, completely. I would have people doing "volunteer" type stuff, cleaning up parks... wiping off graffiti... etc, for minimum wage rather than just checking a stupid diary.

That could coincide with either staying on @ school or do national service (without serving time in either Iraq or that other place hmmmmms what is it yeah that place (sacarsm), or community service, least give them options rather than saying to them you either do this or we are gonna fine you. The if they do not pay the fines cause they wont have any money to pay for it, Put them in jail oh wait, we do not have enough ROOM in our jails, they are overcrowdedddddddddddd!!!!!!!!!! . .

This new policy is going to cause more trouble that it is worth.

Originally posted by u4ria
it wasn't just a case of enjoyed the subjects it was also down to the teachers that taught these classes.

You hit the nail on the head!

The school system is so preoccupied with leaague-tables, OFSTED inspections that are as welcome as a environmental-health-inspector in a takeaway, and creaking under paperwork and admin that all goes along with that, that the schools just sideline the 'bad apples' in order to maintain local authority rankings...what the hell happened to teachers being dedicated to teaching and inspiring young minds?

The revolution should be starting in the playgrounds!

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I must say that your friend is of a very tiny proportion of people who used the free time to reflect on what career choices he has.
Not sure where you live but I somehow doubt the larger louts around my area who spend their days drinking, smoking, taking drugs, causing trouble will be doing any degrees in civil engineering or the sorts in 2 or 5 years.
The only thing we can hope they will be doing in 2 years is porridge.
Get the scum off the streets.

I disagree with fines as it will only mean more victims to get the money to pay the fine.

A jobseeker should be seeking a job otherwise give them £15 a week (I believe its around that amount that law says a person can survive)
More pressure on them, none of that "i looked in a paper but didnt get a response" excuse.
More workers in job centres who find jobs suitable, training schemes and such that ensures no excuses can be made.
Keep dragging the jobseekers in, not a fortnight, twice a week.
Job clubs, more training bases that teach basic things like english and maths.

Just keep them occupied, even if the training bases are nonsense and unhelpful at least it keeps the doleys on their toes.
In the end it will seem so much easier to just get a job filling shelves at Asda for a couple of years.

[edit on 5/11/07 by eagle32]

Originally posted by eagle32
Not sure where you live but I somehow doubt the larger louts around my area who spend their days drinking, smoking, taking drugs, causing trouble will be doing any degrees in civil engineering or the sorts in 2 or 5 years.

The problems start early-on at school...if you are labelled as untalented/uncreative/thick/slow/stupid by teachers or peers often enough it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy which can and does carry on to later adult life

The only thing we can hope they will be doing in 2 years is porridge.
Get the scum off the streets.

Blimey, have you no faith in humanity?

The cost per prisoner in custody is far greater than the cost of incentive-based education for those at the bottom of the educational ladder

What's needed is to offer a hand-up, not a hand-out

[edit on 5-11-2007 by citizen smith]