PARA: How Could They Know That? The Dogon Mystery., page 1
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Topic started on 12-10-2007 @ 07:06 AM by NGC2736
About sixty years ago, two French anthropologists ventured into the wilds of west Africa to study the natives there. They found the Dogon People along the the great Bandiagara Clffs. A people only a few steps past the stone age.

But they also recorded a mystery. In these people that lived in what was then great isolation, they found knowledge of the planets, and how they move.Knowledge of the stars that need a telescope to see. Knowledge that wasn't confirmed until 1970!

How did these people that call themselves the conduit between Earth and Heaven know what could not be seen with the naked eye? How could they hold in their religion ideas said to be thousands of years old, when the western world was just finding these things?

Or maybe a better question might be to ask, who told them the mysteries of the heavens?




In the 1938s two French anthropologists, Marcel Griaule and Germain Dieterlen, went into the wilds of west Africa to study the indigenous tribes. In Mali they came across a tribe called the Dogon, living near the present day city of Bandiagara, in the Mopti region. Living as quasi-cliff dwellers, much like the Anasazi of North America, they were an athropological gold mine.

In their past the slavers had came, the Fulani, the Ghana, the Mossi, even the Muslims. But the Dogon had endured along the foot of the great Bandiagara Cliffs.Their art tells of a sensitive people, their lives bound in spirituality. In wood and sometimes iron, they speak of life and death, hope and beauty. Religion, then as now, is as much a part of their lives as the blue of the sky and the hardness of the earth.Their oral history is their religion, and in it's richness lies the mystery.

The things told to these two outsiders back in the 1930s were astounding, especially for that day and age, and from that remote a people.Their oral history told of the correct motion of the near planets, and of the moons of Jupiter.They spoke of the rings of Saturn, and of the star Sirius.How could they know that it had an invisible companion, a fact scarcely known to most Europians even then? How could they know it's true orbital length of 50 years? And how could they have all this in their thousands year old oral history?

Because, they said, these things had been told to them by the Nommos, beings that looked something like fish, and came to earth in a spinning ship that landed with great noise. The Nommos said they were from another star in the Sirius system, neither the one they could see in the night sky, nor the companion. The Dogon called the craft an "ark", and thought these beings were gods. And so they must have seemed, for the oral history of the Dogon was said to be over 5000 years old.A time when godswere common.

But even then the western world knew most of these things. Maybe not widely, but known nonetheless. Could these backward people have heard of these strange things and incorperated them into their myths in the near past? Could this just be a case where science became myth overnight to a group that were easily swayed? Was this akin to the "cargo cults" that came later in other places?

Well, there was one more thing. The Nommos had said that their home was the third star system of Sirius. Science has found Sirius B, and photographed it in 1970. As early as the 1840s it had been suspected, due to the wobble of Sirius A. Now flash forward to 1995.Daniel Benest and J.L.Duvent publish a paper in the prestigous journal "Astronomy and Astrophysics" called "Is Sirius a Triple Star?"

According to this realitively new research, the wobble of Sirius A cannot be accounted for by Sirius B alone, and there must be another star in the system. Those who say that oral histories are not reliable, and that there must have been cross contamination, will have a very hard time explaing this if it is found to be true by our new breed of telescopes. Long before anyone dreamed of a Sirius C, the Dogon told of a spinning ship that feel to earth from the third star of the Sirius system.

Either it's true, or the Dogon have a knack for guessing that is way above average. You decide, and while you do, watch the science world for news of Sirius C, home star of the Nommos.


news.nationalgeographic.com...

ethnographica.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

Related Links:
unmuseum.mus.pa
www.crystallinks.com



[edit on 14-10-2007 by sanctum]



[edit on 10-14-2007 by William One Sac]


reply posted on 12-10-2007 @ 10:26 AM by Essan
Originally posted by neil wilkes
There is an excellent - although sadly long since out-of-print - book on this subject from Robert Temple, called "The Sirius Mystery".


I bought it years ago - and threw it away. It made Von Daniken look good ....

Anyway, apologies for long post but I don't have a weblink to hand for this Fortean Times article by Philip Coppens

The story that the Dogon, a tribe in Mali, West Africa, had possessed in their antiquity extraordinary knowledge of the star system Sirius achieved worldwide publicity in 1976 through Robert Temple’s extraordinary book The Sirius Mystery. It was compellingly argued and became one of the most influential books of the 1970s ‘ancient astronauts’ genre.

Sirius is the brightest star in the sky, a star that became the marker of an important ancient Egyptian calendar, and a star that is said to be at the centre of beliefs held by the Freemasons. According to some cultures, Sirius is where the forefathers of the human race might have originated.

Temple claimed that the Dogon knew about two smaller stars that are closely related to Sirius – Sirius B and Sirius C. The mystery was how they had obtained this knowledge, as these companion stars cannot be seen by the unaided eye. Temple’s solution referred to legends of a mythical creature, the god Oannes, who might have been an extraterrestrial, described as descending to Earth from the stars to bring civilising wisdom to the Dogon forefathers.


www.philipcoppens.com...

(obviously if this goes against what you want to believe in then you'll dismiss it. But that's religion for you )

[edit on 14-10-2007 by Jbird]



reply posted on 12-10-2007 @ 10:29 AM by lee anoma
I always thought this story was fascinating. I think this case was one of those special ones that deserved more attention than it's given and I often tell many interested people about it. Unfortunately most people flock to the sensationalists and cower in disbelief at photos of Lord Marduk.


Glad you put it up!

Flagged for those that haven't heard and will hopefully read about this mystery.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Could these backward people have heard of these strange things and incorperated them into their myths in the near past?


Personally I don't think the Dogon are "backward" at all. Far from it. The strange things they heard weren't strange but fact as told by the Nomo that visited them and helps participates in watching over us all whether we choose to believe it or not. One of many groups in fact.

The Dogon live a very simplistic, artistic and peaceful lifestyle which in the past as you mentioned usually resulted in them being exploited as slaves. I recall mentioning this information to a colleague and he stated it was false because "If any beings did exist why would they go to those people?"

Proof positive that arrogance and presumed civility have nothing to do with spiritual or even extra-terrestrial enlightenment. It's the assumption of superiority that clouds most from a higher understanding of the universe and our place in it. The knowledge is there for all of us but the price is humility and some refuse to acknowledge how little we truly know or that they aren't the center of the universe. Radical changes would have to be made and much would need to be let go. Materialism and ego especially.

The Dogon are strongly oriented toward harmony, and this harmony is reflected in many of their rituals. For instance, in one of their most important rituals, the women praise the men, the men thank the women, the young express appreciation for the old, and the old recognize the contributions of the young.Wiki


We have a lot of growing up to do to catch up to people like the Dogon.

Basically someone, somewhere thought the Dogon worthy of the information and I do believe their myth is rooted in an actual occurrence. Perhaps if we "civilized" societies adopted a similar peaceful lifestyle we wouldn't be left scratching our heads as to how a tribesman knew more about certain stars and planetary events than the French anthropologists that came to study them.

Although I would have loved to have seen their faces.


reply posted on 12-10-2007 @ 10:36 AM by anhinga
The book, "The Sirius Mystery" is NOT out of print. Here is a link to the Amazon website to order a copy. Used copies are as cheap as $8 each.

Also, I found this thread about the same topic.. . .

I have a copy of the book and it is interesting. The first couple of pages speculate like Hoagland's Enterprise Mission that beings live in Pheobe, Dione and Iapetus who are from Sirius. They could live in our Moon as well.... they look like ETs head and their bodies have long arms and sort of normal legs.


reply posted on 12-10-2007 @ 10:39 AM by NGC2736
reply to post by Essan



Excellent post. I too want to see both sides of this. It is only by considering all possibilities that one can arrive at the truth. I looked into this mystery because I wanted to find out how factual it was.

If we take the accounts just as they were written in the latter part of the 20th century, then we still have a mystery. Even if the Dogon were "contaminated" by the original contact, we're still left with the third star idea to ponder. How could even Temple himself have such information so long before this new research and the publication of it in the journal "Astonomy and Astrophysics" in 1995?

Are you saying this was just a wild guess on the part of Temple, to make this a part of his story?


reply posted on 12-10-2007 @ 10:49 AM by sigung86
Alas, and most unfortunately, there is more than enough evidence to indicate that all is not as it should be in the world of Dogon Mysteries.



In 1998, Temple republished the book with the subtitle “new scientific evidence of alien contact 5,000 years ago.” The book’s reputation was first dented in 1999, when Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince published The Stargate Conspiracy, in which they allege that Temple’s thinking had been heavily influenced by his mentor, Arthur M. Young. Young was a fervent believer in “the Council of Nine,” a mysterious group of channelled entities that claim to be the nine creator gods of ancient Egypt. ‘The Nine’ became part of the UFO and New Age mythology and many claim to be in contact with them. ‘The Nine’ also claim to be extraterrestrial beings from the star Sirius. In 1952, Young was one of nine people present during the “first contact” with the ‘Council’, an event initiated by Andrija Puharich, the man who brought Israeli spoonbender Uri Geller to America.


A Dogon Shame!

I spent a good number of years following this mystery from back in the early 70s. I don't expect anyone to convert to a "skeptical" point of view on anything I post here. However, the unfortunate facts are that often, in the light of day, these "Wowser!" mysteries have a much more mundane and more plausible (if not correct always, but mostly) explanation.

I apologize to those who might think I am attempting to be a sceptical wet blanket. That is not the case, there are some mysteries out there that boggle the mind. The issue here, as is often the case, is that the mundane explanation makes more "common" sense than the conspiratorila explanation that has more drama, and thus impact. And --

Believe it or not, that makes me feel badly. I do so much want to buy into the thoughts that we were blessed with previous visitations and such. I spent a good deal of my early youth involved in these very studies. Unfortunaely, for the Dogon mystery, there is enough question in my tiny, little mind, to think that this is a bit of over-stated evidence that is probably incorrect, and in the case of the Dogon. at least, some folks, such as I will have to wait for more evidence, one way or the other, before blindly jumping on that wagon, again.


reply posted on 12-10-2007 @ 10:51 AM by lee anoma
Originally posted by Essan

...obviously if this goes against what you want to believe in then you'll dismiss it. But that's religion for you...


WSorry but what you posted certainly doesn't close the case. If you choose to believe Van Beek well then maybe it does but clearly there are many sides to the story.

There is also more than just one mystery here.

However, daughter and colleague of Marcel Griaule, Genevieve Calame-Griaule, came to defend the project, dismissing Van Beek's criticism as misguided speculation and being rooted in an apparent ignorance of esoteric tradition. There are also several unexplained aspects of the reported Dogon culture that still remain. The assertion that the Dogon knew of another star in the Sirius system, Emme Ya, or "larger than Sirus B but lighter and dim in magnitude" has particularly baffled critics. In 1995, gravitational studies showed the presence of a brown dwarf star circling around Sirius. Neither does an external cause seem to explain the 400-year old Dogon artifact that apparently depicts the Sirius configuration, or reports that the Dogon were aware of the super dense nature of the white dwarf star, Sirius B, since this was only postulated not long before the Dogon came in contact with the anthropologists. Space journalist and skeptic James Oberg collected claims that have appeared concerning Dogon mythology in his 1982 book and concedes that such assumptions of recent acquisition is "entirely circumstantial" and has no foundation in documented evidence and concludes that it seems likely that the Sirius mystery will remain exactly what its title implies; a mystery.

Wiki


The mystery is still on.


reply posted on 12-10-2007 @ 11:30 AM by NGC2736
reply to post by TheJenkster



Great! It will only be through more research that we will know if what we have here is worth considering further. I listed only online links for my original post because that is the medium most used. I think some library research might well turn up things not found online.

I am in hopes that several researchers might follow this out, and give us different perspectives on this.


reply posted on 12-10-2007 @ 12:20 PM by makeitso
Putting Wiki aside for a moment, it seems that Griaule has been battered quite a bit by his own peers due to his, uh, "interpretation", of the Dogon belief systems.

I've read that the Dogon don't know what the heck your talking about when you approach them with Griaule's interpretations/theories.

It is also worth pointing out that while the date 1938 gets tossed about, it was actually decades later when he started writing about these, uh, new interpretations. And yes, one would presume that being employed by a major University did give him access to all the latest research, and postulations about the stars.

Meanwhile, I hope someone posts what is known about the dogstar cluster, and the 400 year old Dogon artifact which supposedly shows them accurately so that we are a bit better informed on that part of the issue.

Truely don't really know much about it, but the link below appears to provide lots of study references for the bookworms among us.

Griaule’s Legacy: Rethinking “la parole claire” in Dogon Studies

Through the extended critique of Lettens (1971), the signal essays of Jamin (1982b) and Clifford (1988), and Hountondji’s attack against ethnophilosophy (1983), Griaule became a favorite target, personifying the violence and duplicity of colonial ethnography and its mystification of cultural traditions. With his substantive research on Dogon deep knowledge questioned on empirical grounds (van Beek 1991a), his interpretive focus on secrecy and hidden meaning—what he called “la parole claire”—has become iconic of the colonial imagination at large (Mudimbe 1988).

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