PARA: How Could They Know That? The Dogon Mystery.

Originally posted by Hanslune
That they picked up some aspects of western thought (as they were interested in it) is not remarkable at all.

Right on! I just BET that the companion star of Sirius was a hot topic of the day and would have been on the mind of jungle explorers... so the first isolated tribe they came across... "Hey guess what? There is a second star around Sirius.." would have been at the top of the conversation list...

Originally posted by Skyfloating

3. What other mythologies and evidence points to sirius .

DROPA? DOGU? Hmmmm

Now get off your lazy butt and dig up something...

Originally posted by sonicology
I'm sorry but there is really no story here for me. If they had known and related their knowledge of Sirius B to Westerners before it was discovered by modern science then that would merit further investigation, as it is there is no reason to believe that they didn't receive the knowledge from other tribes or European explorers.

What I don't understand why so many people assume that the topic of Sirius would even come up in conversation from the Western Side... I seriously doubt that it was even public knowledge outside a very small group of astronomers.. I just don't see why a Westerner seeing an isolated culture would even bring it up

Can ANYONE show me documentation that this was a hot topic of discussion in the time period mentioned in academic circles?

The problem with skeptics is they are so often guilty of what they accuse believers to be... ready to grasp at ANY straw to debunk something..

But to state "Oh well we knew about Sirius late 1800's so obviously they must have got it from some contact with the west.."

Talk about your crazy ideas... I would say with a lulu staement like that I should reasonably expect documentation to prove the matter was even discussed in the west outside a very tight circle



[edit on 21-10-2007 by zorgon]

reply to post by NGC2736



I wish the Best for you and your Family in this time of need. My thoughts and prayers go out to you and yours.

Howdy Zorgon

1. Navigation at that time was by the stars, European explorers moved about and determined where they were by the use of their knowledge of astronomy. Explorers tended to be up on the latest trends in that field.

2. The Dogon's as part of their religion had a great deal of interest in Sirius - Dogon's who travelled outside the tribe or came into contact with Europeans or educated Arabs or Europeans would have shared information on this subject.



[edit on 23-10-2007 by Hanslune]

First off let me thank each and every one who has contributed to this thread, dispite my absence. And thanks for all the expressed concern. My son is now off of life support, though it will be a long hard fight yet.

I am honored at the level of interest in this thread. Those who find a reason to look deeper at this, as well as those who dismiss it as a "twisted truth' item, hold valid points, IMO. I am personally of the position that overall there is at least enough mystery in this for a closer look.

I am compelled by the fact that whoever brought forth the idea of a third star in the Sirius system, it was well in advance of any scientific view that this could be the case. Even if Temple introduced this idea, he was still a generation ahead of the scientific community. So if, and this is a big IF, it proves to be that there is a third star, then where did this information originate? And why would it be needed in a "fabricated" story from either the 1930s or the 1970s? The scientific proof of such a heavenly body would, for me at this point, clinch the argument in favor of some truth being present in the Dogon tale.

It is because of this detail, as well as other less striking ones, that there remains a certain air of mystery to all of this. Those who feel I have sensationalized the information, stripping it of those items they are using to disprove it, please bear in mind that I never said I had proof positive that anything was a certain way. I only pointed out a sensational story, and the reasons that it seemed worthy of examination.

I have been as interested in the reasons why it might be untrue as true. Unless an idea is brought forth into the light of day and openly discussed, giving air to both sides, then it is not denying ignorance on our part.

I look forward to a fuller reading of background information as provided by some of our members claiming to have the final word on debunking this, just as I do those gray areas that support the idea. I also look forward to learning more about the latest developments concernung a possible Sirius C.

I also look forward to all of your comments on this thread, and while I do not yet have ample time to follow all the leads, nor answer all of the posts, due to ongoing events, I assure you that my interest remains high in learning as much as can be about this matter. And if the weight of evidence and logic dictate that this should be labeled a myth, then I will do that as well.

The Dropa's are also supposed to have come from Sirius. And since the Chinese revolutionary fanatics destroyed everything we may never know if that story is real, or somehow tied into this...

And the 'spacesuited warriors' of the Dogu statutes... I see a lot of digging ahead Hmmmm..

Dog-u Dog-on Just WHY is the star Sirius called the Dog Star anyway?

Sirius is recorded in the earliest astronomical records. Curiously, some ancient observations of Sirius describe it as a red star.[15][16] To the Romans, this meant an angry god, and they are known to have sacrificed red dogs to Sirius.[17][18] Today, Sirius A is bluish white. The possibility that stellar evolution of either Sirius A or Sirius B could be responsible for this discrepancy is rejected by astronomers on the grounds that the timescale of thousands of years is too short and that there is no sign of the nebulosity in the system that would be expected had such a change taken place.

Wikipedia

Silly Astronomers... what do they know?

To the naked eye, it often appears to be flashing with red, white and blue hues when near the horizon.

Maybe because there are three stars

[edit on 23-10-2007 by zorgon]

reply to post by zorgon


In reading some of the responses I could not help but wonder if western science/ideology/understanding is the yardstick by which we measure everything?

The Saturn system is a very interesting one... no doubt why they are sending that Cassini probe out to investigate some more

When investigations bring forth new data theories and opinions change, but, again, it has to be accepted by them and written to their liking.

Dogon mythology is known only by a number of their priests, and is a complex system of knowledge. Such carefully guarded secrets would not be divulged to friendly strangers very easily. If the star Emme Ya is eventually discovered in the Sirius system, this would give considerably weight to the Dogon's story.

It seems as though time will prove whether the “Dogon’s story” or “His-story” has merit.

The Dogon also describe a third star in the Sirius system, called "Emme Ya" ("Sorghum Female"). In orbit around this star, they say, is a single satellite. To date, Emme Ya has not been identified by astronomers.

Cassini Probe Spies Spokes in Saturn's Rings

www.space.com...

Mounting Mysteries at Saturn Keep Scientists Guessing
Humanity has known of Saturn since prehistory, but enigmas about this ringed world still abound-from new mysteries concerning a baffling hexagon of clouds on the planet to perennial puzzles concerning its famous rings.

www.space.com...

As the title states scientists are guessing.

it could be that Voyager One might have triggered a local alarm by entering the Saturn system, and thus awakening the Nommos.

fusionanomaly.net...

Sirius C exists
[YES?] We should not be surprised. To quote a conservative source, the Harvard Bright Star Catalog:
"C, companion to B at 1.4" suspected but not confirmed"
It says this sort of thing for a thousand stars where the suspicion is probably correct.
One support for the existence of Sirius C is as an explanation for the historical "Red Sirius."

www.geocities.com...

The question remains, for what modern day astronomers see with modern technology was known by a people without those visual aids. Also, it appears to me that the Dogon cave drawings predate the earliest Western discovery, so they could not have obtained that information from them.

In 1965, Arthur Young gave Robert Temple a French article on the secret star lore of the Dogon, an article written by two French anthropologists Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen. In 1966, Temple – then aged 21 – became Secretary of Young’s Foundation for the Study of Consciousness. In 1967, Temple began work on the thesis that became The Sirius Mystery. As Picknett and Prince have been able to show, Temple’s arguments are often based on erroneous readings of encyclopædia entries and misrepresentations of ancient Egyptian mythology. They conclude that Temple was very keen to please his mentor, who believed in extraterrestrial beings from Sirius.

Although he was an anthropologist, Griaule was keenly interested in astronomy and had studied it in Paris. As James and Thorpe point out, he took star maps along with him on his field trips as a way of prompting his informants to divulge their knowledge of the stars. Griaule himself was aware of the discovery of Sirius B and in the 1920s – before he visited the Dogon – there were also unconfirmed sightings of Sirius C.
The Dogon were well aware of the brightest star in the sky but, as Van Beek learned, they do not call it sigu tolo, as Griaule claimed, but dana tolo. To quote James and Thorpe: “As for Sirius B, only Griaule’s informants had ever heard of it.” Was Griaule told by his informants what he wanted to believe; did he misinterpret the Dogon responses to his questions? Either way, the original purity of the Dogon-Sirius story is itself a myth as it is highly likely that Griaule contaminated their knowledge with his own.

With this, the Dogon mystery comes crashing down. For more then 20 years, The Sirius Mystery has influenced speculation about the possibility that our ‘forefathers’ came from the stars. In his 1998 revised edition, Temple was quick to point out the new discussions in scientific circles about the possible existence of Sirius C, which seemed to make Griaule’s claims even more spectacular and accurate. But it is apparent that Temple was not aware of Van Beek’s devastating research.

But it seems that Griaule, a scientist, wanted to attribute to earlier civilisations more knowledge than they actually possessed. Credulous scholars, like Young and Temple, were taken in and through them a whole generation has swallowed the false mythology of aliens from “the Dark Sirius Companion.”

www.philipcoppens.com...

so thats that done with then

reply to post by kerkinana walsky


Have you read the entire thread? Have you heard the arguments, many very scholarly, on both sides of this? This was put out there to bring out the best in the minds of ATSers, not to have some cut and paste job by a brand new board member define everything without a single original thought on the subject.

I'm so impressed with you acumen./sarcasm off.

the truth of this fraud has been known for over two decades
its not my fault if you're gullible and have a solid personal belief based on your love of aliens in play on this

1. whats more likely, that aliens came down from Sirius and the indigenous tribesmen who were living 1000 miles away at the time in Libya remembered that there was an exta star up there for more than 5000 years and only decided to tell a missionary who knew about astronomy already and then completely forgot all about it when asked by later missionaries for confirmation and never mentioned it again to anyone.

2. that the information came from the person claiming it was told to him by Dogon priests who happened to know the information he was talking about before they apparently told him.

Now if you don't believe that Griaule knew there were two stars and so didn't tell the Dogon himself perhaps you can tell me why he was so amazed that they knew it.

if someone told you that Sirius was a binary system and you had no interest or knowledge in astronomy would you even blink ?

sometimes you do need to solidly research this subject
I have, you haven't

sometimes you need to have a little common sense
I have, have you ?

reply to post by kerkinana walsky


Yes, I do. And I can read too. Did you miss the part about the researchers who postulate with their math a third star in this system? Now the Dogon is an old mythtake that was compounded by the retelling. BUT, wherever the part about the third star came from, it should NOT have been part of the story at that time, years BEFORE these researchers studied the wobble factor, and showed with math that there ought to be a third star.

Now my young genus, do you get the point of all this now? I at least am waiting for the confirmation of this star before wondering too much. But it is a mystery worthy of our consideration.

unfortunately for you, Robert Temple and the Aliens are amongst us mob we have a new toy in space that has completely destroyed the claims erroneously made for the Dogon (which they themselves stated they never said or know anything about)
see on December 13th 2005 the Hubble telescope was focused on Sirius

guess what wasn't there

Because ancient astronomers believed that Sirius was red in color as late as 2,000 years ago, some investigators wonder if the system may have a third stellar component, Sirius C, with about five percent of Sol's mass that implies a spectral type M5-9 in a six-year elliptical orbit around Sirius A (Benest and Duvent, 1995). A recent search for faint companions using the Hubble Space Telescope found no supporting evidence for a large Jupiter or brown dwarf sized object

www.solstation.com...
hubblesite.org...
hubblesite.org...
hubblesite.org...

so like I said, just because you want to believe it doesn't mean that its true
and if you had bothered to research this like I suggested instead of copying and pasting erroneous speculation you would already have known this and saved yourself some effort

quite clearly you believed it was true because you wanted to and because of that you didn't bother to look for evidence that it wasn't which has been available for almost two years

your belief system in this case has allowed you to be totally biased and agendised towards something that was never true in the first place

next time try to check out both sides of the story



btw just because I'm new doesn't mean I'm stupid


[edit on 15-11-2007 by kerkinana walsky]

reply to post by kerkinana walsky


I will consider all sides. Tell me then, how did the cave drawings come about? Were the Dogon people instructed to draw and what to draw?

Heliacal rises of Sirius and Aldebaran have been determined among the rest of the cave drawings. First appearance of Sirius is marked with a sign added in a circle, which could be connected with the strong flickering of the stellar image on the night sky. This is an optical phenomenon connected with strong turbulent motions and the dust in atmosphere during the summer. The calendar is dated back to 3500 BC. The heliacal rises and extreme sunrises in one tropical solar year have been calculated by the use of the computer program SKYMAP Pro 6.

www.rock-cut.thracians.org...

Their ancient drawings show the helical rising of Sirius with the Sun and Sirius joined together. They show the rings of Saturn and the four major moons of Jupiter as well as the elliptical orbit of the invisible star Sirius B around Sirius and relate that, not only is it a dense and heavy star, which it is now known to be far more dense than earth but correctly note that the elliptical orbit is completed once every 50 years, an event they celebrate at exactly the proper moment, even if only once or twice in a person's entire lifetime!

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Any theories are welcomed.


[edit on 15-11-2007 by Siren]

reply to post by kerkinana walsky


OK, let's speak of bias then, since you seem determined that I began with one. On one side we have the science of math and on the other the science of Hubble. So in your view the science of Hubble trumps the math. Because math says that something is there, and you can't see it, means forget the math.

And yes, being that I'm not some deity, I missed that one. If you had read a few of my posts in something like the Aliens and UFOs Forum, you would have seen that I am neither skeptic or believer, only someone that finds a mystery worth looking at. And had I found that data I would have included it as well.

unlike you, I think, as do many, that the mystery hasn't gone away just because one science failed to find what another said was there. Maybe the mysteryis why to branches of science can't agree.

reply to post by Siren


Please post a link to these, if you have it. And thank you for considering a mystery. That is all I ever said it was, despite the statements from some quarters.

reply to post by NGC2736


With documentation lost or cast aside, who can say with absolute fact who discovered what, or the origin of an idea.

In doing the math, 3500 BC far predates 3 BC.

There are many ancient astronomers from many cultures all around the world, many of whom have their name lost over the ages. For example, we do not know who or when the planets were recognized as being different from stars. In some sense, most ancient people were 'astronomers' since all lived under non-light-polluted dark skies and everyone wonders what is up there. The names of the Egyptian, Mayan, and Chaldean astronomers are all lost, even if we know of some of their results. The best known astronomers are those associated with the development of the modern scientific results. For example, Hipparchus (Greek ~3 century BC) discovered the precession of the equinoxes,

imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

reply to post by Siren


Thank you for those really interesting links. I skimmed through, but when things settle here at home later tonight I will return to them and give a better reading.

As I said to the poster who berated me over not including the scientific data he had at hand, there are always more things to learn, and no one has all the information. At least when something comes out on ATS there are many people to step up and supply what is needed.

I myself do not think the mystery is near solved.

Thank you for this information.

not just the dogon....more fish people from outerspace...

reply to post by NGC2736


Did you get the Sirius Mystery book yet? One poster one page mentioned it was OOP (out of print) -- not true, there's plenty available at Amazon and I still see it often in the bookshops. Great book, haven't finished it yet, although, there was a couple threads about this awhile ago, one had a 'hoax' of the author, but I didn't see the case against him.... the book deals w/ astronomy cases, Pythagorean theory, Dogons and the Nommo. I've been really into it so far but have been reading numerous books at once, haven't been in it for awhile.

You can get it on Amazon, used for $7 before shipping.

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195182920&sr=8-1

edit: the book's pretty dense too, over 400 pages w/ index, seems well researched and the guy is a member of the Royal Astro Society and about 5 others. Translated Gilgamesh (required reaching in college lit 101 classes, some HS) and author of nine books. I don't usually "sales pitch" but it's an interesting read for those interested in ETE/astronomy connections to ancient times.


[edit on 15-11-2007 by anhinga]

reply to post by anhinga


Great. I thought it was not available also. And on the same page is another one I want by Temple called Oracles of the Dead.

I do love to read. Thanks a lot.