Why do Masons have such a bad name?

Originally posted by PrinceHall06
but they say there can be no good in Masonry because we keep it secret,

Because I have made many comments about masonry and secrect, I wish to comment on this.
I disagree with part of this, I do not condemn, nor judge masons, I do however question some of there actions, and say I believe them not to be the highest standard we all can strive to. As in any group I am sure there are many good masons. Both in intent, and most actions. I fail often myself, and do not ask to be considered nothing but that which I am, a sinner and one who attempts to honor and serve my lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by mastermind77
THeres nothing new under the sun.

Funny you quote King Solomon in an argument against Masonry.

Irony?

no, and lucifarianism is a losse term to define, trickery. As i look at this free country, I see only the very rich as part of the masons for the most part. Maybe its just where i am. Also the laws in this masonicly dominated land dont seem to match up with what the intent was of the constitution, almost as if an alternative belief system was being implimented. Please argue this..

literally speaking, wasn't there a text in france (I think) which was the first connection of masonry to satanism ? I'm thinking 1700's maybe

Hi Blaine91555

Originally posted by Blaine91555
The solution to the Free Mason reputation is simple. Get rid of the secrets. Only two reasons to keep a secret. To hide something or cover something up. There is I guess a third reason. Its fun to keep secrets if your a child or a childish adult.

Oh if only that was all there was to it. The secrets of masonry are simple - they are the modes of recognition and are used in a stylized way within the ritual. The primary purpose, IMO, of having these simple secrets is to determine whether a man can keep a confidence or not.

There aren't any other secrets. Everything else is wide open to view, if you care to look.

However apparently some people believe that there are 'other' secrets, and no matter how many freemasons say otherwise, continue to believe it. There's nothing that can be done about that I'm afraid. If one believes the moon is made of green cheese there is nothing whatsoever I can say or do to prove that hypothesis false.

It is clear that either the Masons are hiding something or covering something up. So tell us what you are hiding or covering up and all the hype ends.

Clear to who? To me it is clear that the opposite is the case.

I personally think what they are hiding is that they are a discriminatory club who considers themselves to be superior to others. Can't let that get out can we? I think they are also covering up the fact that they use the club as a way to gain unfair and bordering on illegal advantage in business and politics.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. However if you were considering persuading others to agree with this viewpoint you would probably want to back it up with something. Anything really. Otherwise it will simply remain your opinion. And those of us who know rather than those who think they know will regard you as somewhat foolish.

I do not think there is anything Mystical or Otherworldly about them. They are just a group of Elitists who consider themselves above the masses.

You forgot to mention that this is more opinion. Without any evidence to support it, stating this as fact is a little premature IMO.

I've noticed a large contingent of Mason here on ATS. I often wonder if it is a Policing action looking for fellow or former Masons spilling the beans. If the rumors are to be believed the punishment could be death

Well if it's a policing action it's not a very good one, as I have been 'spilling the beans' for a couple of years now, and I'm still here

"Can you post some of these writings from the 33rd Degree to enlighten us, please?

I would think, if they're so horrible, that it would be popularized by now."

I have. Over and over and over, over the course of many years.

Same responses over and over and over. This guy isn't a typical Freemason, no one speaks for Freemasonry, you just read that at Freemasonrywatch, you took that out of context, et cetera.

At no time did I say horrible. That came from your end.

reply to post by Researcher


No, you did not say it was horrible. However, the definition and connotation of the word 'drivel' implied that.

Read the drivel written by 33d degree Freemasons. I don't have time to explain that or provide examples.

If you do not have the time to explain or provide examples then I ask why did you bother contributing to my topic? Was it because the 'bottom line' was supposed to convince me?

I have. Over and over and over, over the course of many years.

I would think that, since it has been such a mission for you, one more time would not be that difficult if you really wanted to get your message out there. And I am not asking for you to type an essay, paragraph or even a sentence, because I'm sure, since you've done it so many times, it must be on the internet somewhere... So a link will be satisfactory.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
literally speaking, wasn't there a text in france (I think) which was the first connection of masonry to satanism ? I'm thinking 1700's maybe

You are probably speaking of these
Former Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 1859, Albert Pike writes the book Morals and Dogma. It may have been cleaned up.
www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...
www.sacred-texts.com...

Here is another 33 degree mason.
The Book of Ceremonial Magic
by Arthur Edward Waite
www.sacred-texts.com...

Masons say they do not teach these anymore, or maybe it is just secret, don't know. But you can see the reflections of the teachings in their conversations.

reply to post by Redge777


Redge777

Thank you for the links. The only thing is the second doesn’t appear to have any reference to or about Masonry. I’m not able to comment on the Masonic affiliation of the author. There is no reference to free masonry in either the introduction or the preface.

An author who is a mason may write books on any subject either under his own name or a pen name. That does not mean that all of them are about Free Masonry. From what I have read of it so far (only about 20%) it has no reference to free masonry. Nor does it reference any of the three degrees of free masonry. Nor does it attempt to explain or enhance any of the degrees or lectures. It is an interesting an interesting read, but it is on a topic unrelated to masonry.

While several brothers express an interest in the occult, and even in true magic that interest is separate from free masonry.

From the same basic web site you can read a book titled Duncan’s Rituals: www.sacred-test.com/mas/dun/index.htm (can't get the link to work for some reason???) (try google for Duncans Rituals if this doen't work)
Which wile not the exact ritual of my grand lodge is basically the same.

Originally posted by Masonic Student
reply to post by Redge777

 

Thank you for the links. The only thing is the second doesn’t appear to have any reference to or about Masonry. I’m not able to comment on the Masonic affiliation of the author. There is no reference to free masonry in either the introduction or the preface.

The thread question why do they have a bad name made me feel occult writings of a 33 degree mason, a degree that is only given to the most respective masons has a place in the thread

We do not know if any of this is part of the secret rituals, we only know what masons have told us.

Google Arthur Edward Waite Freemason decide for yourself, the secrecy makes weather it is actual teachings or not unknown.
www.google.com...:
I agree it is impossible for an outsider to know if this is what they teach, which is why I keep repeating credibility. We actually do not even know if the first two links are original, or cleaned up versions of "Morals and Dogma"

I also searched the first freemason hit I got on above link to here what they offer about Arthur Edward Waite
www.google.com...


[edit on 6-10-2007 by Redge777]

reply to post by Redge777


If you are truly interested in learning about the “secrets” of masonry all you have to do is either go to a book store and buy a copy of Duncan’s Ritual or follow a Google search and read it for free. Pointing out the existence of a publicly available book does not violate my oath, either in word or spirit.

Just because a man is a 33 degree does not means that everything he writes is about Free Masonry. I am willing to admit that I am unfamiliar with that particular author. (Thank you for bringing him to my attention.) As my screen name implies I am a student of freemasonry. After almost 30 years of learning I have not reached the point I can claim mastery of the subject. But I do try and keep an open mind and am more than willing to consider information or opinions opposed to my position. Being willing to continuing to learn in an open and objective way is one of the teachings of our brotherhood.

Are you willing to consider information that is at odds to your current position?

reply to post by Masonic Student


In theory I am, but I run into two stumbling blocks. The first is secrecy, I believe it to be inherently bad, if I could be shown that not to be true, I would reevaluate that idea. I have a strong bias against secrecy because of lessons of history. So I have to say that is an area I do not easily accept.

Second is questioning faith in Jesus Christ, in this I am narrowminded. Although many believe differently then me on Christianity, and I still learn many things that expand my knowledge, the core beliefs do not change.

When question, I consider it a challenge to faith. In otherwords if someone logically tried to disprove my belief, I would have to step back and rewalk the logic that led me to them, and consider the other logic an attempt to get me to turn from Christ and once again be vunerable to darkness.

Please understand this is from personal experiance, many of the themes of the occult, or eliteism, (not saying I know they are ingrained in masons, only that I do not know if they are, hence credibility.) Anyway many of the themes I learned did not come from other people, reading, or tv, they came from personal experiances. The thing is they were geared to break faith. That was the goal. So now when I hear those teachings from man I have a set of experiances that really leads me to believe I know their source. This is all belief, and requires acceptance of my credibility something I do not ask for, but is the best answer I can give to your question.

So I am not open minded about faith issues. But that requires a foundational belief in spiritual matters. And is not the most comfortable parts of that big battle of light and dark to speak of.


[edit on 6-10-2007 by Redge777]

"If you do not have the time to explain or provide examples then I ask why did you bother contributing to my topic? Was it because the 'bottom line' was supposed to convince me?"

It is what we call a suggestion. Put some effort into this. You find the subject interesting, but not interesting enough to get off your duff?

"I would think that, since it has been such a mission for you, one more time would not be that difficult if you really wanted to get your message out there. And I am not asking for you to type an essay, paragraph or even a sentence, because I'm sure, since you've done it so many times, it must be on the internet somewhere... So a link will be satisfactory."

I scanned all of this fascinating material into a computer. Arranged it in an orderly fashion, so people who have difficulty with linear thought could follow the train of thought.

The computer ate a power surge. All the smoke came out of it. It's FUBAR. Lightning strikes again.

I can rebuild the files. Search through these books again, find all this stuff again, scan it again, post it again. Burn up a holiday weekend just for you. Because you play such a special role in my life.

Or you can put a little effort into this yourself. And I can do other things with my time.

Which do you think is more likely?

Oh, wait, There's a third possibility. You won't do anything, you'll throw a temper tantrum because you didn't get your way and I will go on about my business as if you don't matter one little bit in my life.

Yeah. My money is on horse #3.

Originally posted by Researcher
"If you do not have the time to explain or provide examples then I ask why did you bother contributing to my topic? Was it because the 'bottom line' was supposed to convince me?"

No I do not just discuss things I know people have to simply trust me about, and it would be off topic.

I believe my post was very well on topic and adressed the question posed in the OP. I gave two books that have given people the reason why masons have a bad name.

It is what we call a suggestion. Put some effort into this. You find the subject interesting, but not interesting enough to get off your duff?

An effort into learning about masons? I learned enough to form my oppinons, if the things I learned still continue, they override other things I might learn. If an engine is broke, why continue to examine the car? For me, masons have a broke engine, but that is my opinion, and why I do not learn about them. That is not why I question credibility, or answer a question in a OP.

"I would think that, since it has been such a mission for you, one more time would not be that difficult if you really wanted to get your message out there. And I am not asking for you to type an essay, paragraph or even a sentence, because I'm sure, since you've done it so many times, it must be on the internet somewhere... So a link will be satisfactory."

Seriously I am confused, what do you want me to type. seriously, what have I not answered? I had a reply right before this one that I thought was an answer? where is it shy of your question? I have posted a reply for each of yours, and attempted to answer questions? what are you suggesting I should be doing?

I scanned all of this fascinating material into a computer. Arranged it in an orderly fashion, so people who have difficulty with linear thought could follow the train of thought.

The computer ate a power surge. All the smoke came out of it. It's FUBAR. Lightning strikes again.

I can rebuild the files. Search through these books again, find all this stuff again, scan it again, post it again. Burn up a holiday weekend just for you. Because you play such a special role in my life.

Or you can put a little effort into this yourself. And I can do other things with my time.

Which do you think is more likely?

what are you talking about? Are you reading my posts? or is this for someone else?

Oh, wait, There's a third possibility. You won't do anything, you'll throw a temper tantrum because you didn't get your way and I will go on about my business as if you don't matter one little bit in my life.

Yeah. My money is on horse #3.

temper tantrum? what? I replied to each post of yours nicely.

I may understand your confussion. My last post before this one was an answer to the last line of your post above it. I was not trailing off in new direction, I was honestly answering your question.

[edit on 6-10-2007 by Redge777]

I have no desire to learn more of freemasonry. I have learned enough, that until the issues I have are resolved I do not need to know more.

And the conversations I have are about the credibility of secret organizations, I am not soliciting information about masons, I am pointing out a credibility gap in their postings.

It is a responce, and well thought out.

In this thread I simply offered books to answer OP. Why would I need to be interested in masonary to call dishonesty in a post? I am interested in society as a whole, and when masons post or discuss there order with society that is my interest, not masonary.

reply to post by Redge777


One of us is misunderstands a point. I am not and never would suggest that you question your beliefs in Jesus. This is forbidden by the teaching of masonry, under NO circumstances are we allowed to come between a persons and his relationship with his God.

My question strictly referred to your position with respect to the secrecy of masonry. If you can either read the full ritual either on-line or by purchase a book where it is written out in plane English, how can there be “secrecy”?

As far a Jesus is concerned, Free Masonry makes no reference to him, either to promote or to rebuke. Nor to any other specific religion. We do require a belief in A supreme being only because the oath of an atheist is not considered binding. That is why we have an opening / closing prayer to a nonspecific deity, our version of asking a blessing that all men of faith can accept without compromising their beliefs.

We do not reveal the “secrets” of the ritual out of tradition.

But any book that has been published can be read by all. The remainders of our secrets boil down to “private matters”, mainly because they apply only to the brothers involved in the matter being discussed. As far as making these “transparent,” our funding comes primarily from the members and therefore is transparent to the men giving the money. When the public donates money to the shriners hospital the records are available to any interested party.

Originally posted by Redge777
I have no desire to learn more of freemasonry. I have learned enough, that until the issues I have are resolved I do not need to know more.

And the conversations I have are about the credibility of secret organizations, I am not soliciting information about masons, I am pointing out a credibility gap in their postings.

It is a responce, and well thought out.

In this thread I simply offered books to answer OP. Why would I need to be interested in masonary to call dishonesty in a post? I am interested in society as a whole, and when masons post or discuss there order with society that is my interest, not masonary.

From your last post, I have totally misunderstood your position. I apologize; I thought you were here not only to express an opinion but to discuss the topic.

You have given me insight into the position you have taken, for that I am grateful. But unfortunately, with a closed mind it is not practical to discuss. I look forward to your future posts in the hope that your position will evolve.

I for one come here primarily to learn from the discussions, as I am genuinely interested in the positions of people opposed to an organization of which I am proud. I would like to learn their concerns and when possible attempt to correct misunderstandings, but to examine their arguments for any elements of fact.

reply to post by Masonic Student

I agree.

I believe the conversation has come to a logical conclusion, my issues with the order are not solveable, with its current doctrine, therefore my opinion is static. I do accept the possibility the masons are good, and I know many masons are. Thank you for your time.

I wish you the best, and good luck and God bless in all things

Originally posted by Masonic Student
My question strictly referred to your position with respect to the secrecy of masonry. If you can either read the full ritual either on-line or by purchase a book where it is written out in plane English, how can there be “secrecy”?

We do not reveal the “secrets” of the ritual out of tradition.

Here's a thought from left field, why not drop the tradition? If the rituals are the secrets and are already available, as you say, why bother with the pretense? Especially considering that is the source of all negativity directed at Masonry.
Other traditions have changed over the history of Masonry, have they not?

If the rituals are to accompany lessons, I'd be asking myself, can the lesson be learnt just as well without the ritual? If yes, then what purpose the ritual? If the reason boils down to nothing more than pomp and ceeremony, consider doing away with it and saving yourselves from the stigma of being a 'secret society'.

Originally posted by troppo_ozstyle
If the rituals are the secrets and are already available, as you say, why bother with the pretense? Especially considering that is the source of all negativity directed at Masonry.

Because no matter how many times it's pointed out just how much of Masonry is functionally available online, there will always be a braying few insisting that there's yet more 'secrets', that Masons haven't 'come clean' so to speak. These people need a group to demonise and despite their 'facts' having been often and thoroughly shown to be anything but, they insist that their unsubstantiable gut feeling tells them they're right.

Without their windmills, these latter-day Don Quixotes are nothing.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Because no matter how many times it's pointed out just how much of Masonry is functionally available online, there will always be a braying few insisting that there's yet more 'secrets', that Masons haven't 'come clean' so to speak. These people need a group to demonise and despite their 'facts' having been often and thoroughly shown to be anything but, they insist that their unsubstantiable gut feeling tells them they're right.

Without their windmills, these latter-day Don Quixotes are nothing.

Masonry is available online, a few insist that there's 'secrets',
despite their 'facts' have been shown to be anything but, they insist gut feeling tells them they're right.

I removed the parts that were just adjectives to simply look at your statement.

1) If all mason information is online, what parts of it is followed and official doctrine, what parts are no longer considered valid. How would we know?

2) How has the historical fact that societies that keep secrets , keep them for there own advantage been misproven, or how is this a gut feeling.

3) What motivates you to state something that is not an accurate reflection of people who comment on activities of masons.

4) Where has someone said they believe the only reason they are right is because of gut feelings. Note that gut feeling is intuition based on large data fields.