The Bigotry of the Christ

Originally posted by whirlwind
So...He is all a great, big, fabricated lie. Steven was stoned to death for following a lie, Peter was crucified upside down for following a lie, men dedicated their lives to following a lie???

wouldn't be the first or last time that people died for something that wasn't true.

Other people taked about Christ too. Why do you believe He wasn't spoken about for decades after His death?

because the first mention of jesus in any piece of writing is by paul in one of his letters.

That is my point. All of your arguments can be applied to everyone in ancient history. If you choose not to believe that He is real that is your choice but to say He wasn't on earth is a "stupid semantics game, outright stupid and you're just acting immature and arrogant".

no, not at all. you're comparing stuff that has mountains of evidence to a guy that is mentioned only decades after his death in mythological text

you're comparing apples and tow-trucks here.
normally i've heard this argument from others, but they use something like caesar...

the simple fact is that you don't have any reliable evidence to show that your mythological messiah figure existed.

We can and do. It isn't a rationalization at all but truth. There are reasons for it but you don't seem to be in the frame of mind for hearing truth at that depth yet.

^translation "i know something you CAN'T know"

there isn't a frame of mind for hearing the truth, the truth is something that rings true to all people in all mindsets.

The ones that didn't like Him were the scribes, Pharisees and holy joe's down at the temple.

yep, that's how the story goes.

That "same hour" is reference to the "hour of temptation" of Rev. 3:10.

it's a reference to something that wasn't written yet....
yeah, that makes complete sense.

skipping the rest of the theology, we're insanely off topic with it.

The Death Of Judas:

again, you're rationalizing. nowhere does it say judas bought anything, you're adding your own stuff. throwing money down to buying a field is quite a leap...

now... can we get back on topic?

[edit on 9/11/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Please dont bother with this man madness.

He denies everything to further his rebeliion nomatter the miracles or proof.

" Like the toothfairy "

Yea. The toothfairy and speghetti monster have not workded 2000 years of miracles, and created many prophets and apostles, nor did it creat us.

I have seen these miracles in my life. And his grace work in my life.

But will you even give the miracles a chance? The saints are too decent and faultless about what they have seen, they are greater than I, and I would not lie about what ive seen.

Sincere people give stuff a chance. But there is a type of people that have to deny everything, because they are not sincere and dont want proof.

and if proof is given they know they would have to give up sin and put themselves below a creator.

anybody who sees you post madness should realize you lack sincerity. Your not trying to understand anybody.

Your like my brother. He has seen miracles in my life and his, yet because hes a player, he has to shrug it off as if he didnt see it.


Now.

Judas died one way, what bible do you have?

" dude "

Hes a soul of God not a dude.

You see what made me say that?

Gods grace, which gives me love for strangers, and is the only one who follows our lives throughout bith till we die loving and watching like a mother./

Im telling you guys now, this conversation will go nowhere but circles.

peace.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Please dont bother with this man madness.

yes, just run away from an entire poster because of the words of one person...

He denies everything to further his rebeliion nomatter the miracles or proof.

no, i deny everything that has no proof.

" Like the toothfairy "

Yea. The toothfairy and speghetti monster have not workded 2000 years of miracles, and created many prophets and apostles, nor did it creat us.

again, you can't provide proof. start a thread that proves the existence of your deity, and i'll post in it. just don't threadjack me like you're doing.

I have seen these miracles in my life. And his grace work in my life.

But will you even give the miracles a chance? The saints are too decent and faultless about what they have seen, they are greater than I, and I would not lie about what ive seen.

i never said you were lying, i just said you were mistaken. what you saw wasn't some divine miracle, unless you can actually prove it was.

Sincere people give stuff a chance. But there is a type of people that have to deny everything, because they are not sincere and dont want proof.

um... alright, you really don't know my story... even though i've brought this up many times.
i spent 2 whole years in a completely sincere search for god, allah, yahweh, etc. i looked at all religions and tried to contact god, a god, any god. nothing happened.

and if proof is given they know they would have to give up sin and put themselves below a creator.

ugh... the horribly bigoted stereotype of the atheist. i would have no problem putting myself below a being greater than myself... i already do so, i put myself below people.

and sin? i wouldn't really have to give up anything, i'd just have to start beleiving.

anybody who sees you post madness should realize you lack sincerity. Your not trying to understand anybody.

no, i am trying to understand people. now stop it with the ad hom attack that i "lack sincerity"

Now.

Judas died one way, what bible do you have?

um... he exploded in a field, fell off of a cliff, and hung himself
that's actually 3 ways. i have a catholic bible, a coptic bible, and a protestant bible. all 3 actually say the same thing here, the guy died 3 ways.

seems like someone needs to actually read their bible.

" dude "

Hes a soul of God not a dude.

You see what made me say that?

your inability to accept non-proper nouns?

Gods grace, which gives me love for strangers, and is the only one who follows our lives throughout bith till we die loving and watching like a mother./

um... ok, so what gives ME love for strangers if i lack god's grace? what gives me all that positive stuff that makes people think i'm such a great person if i lack god's grace? why have several priests actually acknowledged that i'm an overall good guy (though i have a bit of a patience problem sometimes), if i lack grace?

Im telling you guys now, this conversation will go nowhere but circles.

only if you continue threadjacking it

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by whirlwind
So...He is all a great, big, fabricated lie. Steven was stoned to death for following a lie, Peter was crucified upside down for following a lie, men dedicated their lives to following a lie???

Madness -
wouldn't be the first or last time that people died for something that wasn't true.

You're right of course and they still do. The difference is Peter walked with Christ, he saw the miracles, he saw the healings....he knew He is real.

Other people talked about Christ too. Why do you believe He wasn't spoken about for decades after His death?

Madness -
because the first mention of jesus in any piece of writing is by paul in one of his letters.

But that would be "written" about, not spoken about. Remember Madness, they were being persecuted at the time and in spite of that His word flourished.

That is my point. All of your arguments can be applied to everyone in ancient history. If you choose not to believe that He is real that is your choice but to say He wasn't on earth is a "stupid semantics game, outright
stupid and you're just acting immature and arrogant".

Madness -
no, not at all. you're comparing stuff that has mountains of evidence to a guy that is mentioned only decades after his death in mythological text...
you're comparing apples and tow-trucks here.
normally i've heard this argument from others, but they use something like caesar...the simple fact is that you don't have any reliable evidence to show that your mythological messiah figure existed.

They aren't mythological, the text or the Messiah. The arguments that you use against His existence applies to other historical figures as well.

We can and do. It isn't a rationalization at all but truth. There are reasons for it but you don't seem to be in the frame of mind for hearing truth at that depth yet.

Madness -
^translation "i know something you CAN'T know"....there isn't a frame of mind for hearing the truth, the truth is something that rings true to all people in all mindsets.

Your statement itself isn't true and if you think about it you will realize that. Where people are in their lives dictates what truths they wish to see.
People seem to have a capacity to justify what they do, to make it a truth whether it is or not. Of course, there is a truth, one truth, but not all recognize it - that's why God is the judge.

As far as me saying "I know something you can't know", that isn't what I'm saying at all. It isn't that you can't know it but rather that you are unable to know it at your present point. That isn't my decision or yours it is just the way it is. No matter what I tell you that I know is true your eyes and ears have not been opened yet and will not receive that truth.

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12.For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13.Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14.And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15.For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.'

Having eyes and ears closed by God is for their protection. If yours are not opened to truth before the end of days you cannot committ the unpardonable sin. Only God's elect can do that. God's elect are those that know the truth about what will happen then.

The ones that didn't like Him were the scribes, Pharisees and holy joe's down at the temple.

Madness -
yep, that's how the story goes.

What reason would others find to not like Him? The miracles, the healings, the preaching about the love of Father???

That "same hour" is reference to the "hour of temptation" of Rev. 3:10.

Madness -
it's a reference to something that wasn't written yet....
yeah, that makes complete sense.

You're right...a bad choice of scripture on my part. We'll go to the Old Testament. That same "hour" is written of there but I warn you, you will have to have "eyes" to see it.

Daniel is speaking to king Nebuchadnezzar but it is also a prophecy about end times. The king of Babylon is a "type" of anti-christ and the events then are an example to us today of what will happen.

Daniel 3:6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace."

A herald called out that decree, warning that everyone had to worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up, or be thrown in the fire.

3:15......(snip) but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

Just as at the end of days, if we worship the image of anti-christ in that same hour (the hour of temptation of anti-christ) we will be "thrown in the fire". There, the 3 Hebrew children did not worship the image, were thrown in the fire and were not harmed. Nor will we be if we "do not worship" him (fall for his deceit).

The Death Of Judas:....again, you're rationalizing. nowhere does it say judas bought anything, you're adding your own stuff. throwing money down to buying a field is quite a leap...now... can we get back on topic?

That was in answer to your question about the death of Judas. Some people believe he bought the field and that it is an inconsistency in the Word. I thought perhaps you did too.....Sorry, I misunderstood.

By the way........What is the topic again???


........Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


listen, we're really off topic.... and i think you should realize that. you've threadjacked this in an attempt to avoid the real issue, that there is bigotry in scripture.

now, i'll quickly address your points:
you have no historical evidence for jesus or the 13 apostles
the argument that i provide doesn't stand up to other historical figures whose existence is proven... i already showed that with your attempt at saying "you can't prove socrates and plato exist"

now, back on topic. ok?

There's more evidence for Christ than Julius Caesar, so I guess we should just throw out all of history and assume the world began about 50 years ago.

Bigotry, you say, while quoting a Jew stating Jews are going in the wrong direction. Is this bigotry? It is referring to the Jews:

"But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.

or this:

Has a nation ever changed its gods?
(Yet they are not gods at all.)
But my people have exchanged their [d] Glory
for worthless idols.

Be appalled at this, O heavens,
and shudder with great horror,"
declares the LORD.

"My people have committed two sins:
They have forsaken me,
the spring of living water,
and have dug their own cisterns,
broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

Is Israel a servant, a slave by birth?
Why then has he become plunder?

So what constitutes bigotry? Christianity, the Bible, was not seen as anything separate from Judaism until Paul was in Antioch. It was a sect of Judaism, and, in many ways, still is. There are those that believe their messiah has come, and those that believe He has not. To take individual passages critical of the Jewish leadership at the time and say it is evidence of bigotry requires that you not be familiar with the books of the Prophets that are part of Jewish canon that do exactly the same thing. Anti-Jewish? Hardly. Why, then, would it be written that the good news, the news about the messiah, is to be preached to the Jew first, then the Gentile, and that the Jew is closer to God and has a place that no Gentile could ever attain (the first is verbatim, the second requires more interpretation)?

Originally posted by junglejake
There's more evidence for Christ than Julius Caesar, so I guess we should just throw out all of history and assume the world began about 50 years ago.

um... we have the writings of jesus, then?
honestly, i've heard that statement before, but it's an outright lie. we actually have letters that caesar wrote and contemporary accounts of him.... yet none of those for jesus.
your point fails

Bigotry, you say, while quoting a Jew stating Jews are going in the wrong direction. Is this bigotry? It is referring to the Jews:

"But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.

or this:

Has a nation ever changed its gods?
(Yet they are not gods at all.)
But my people have exchanged their [d] Glory
for worthless idols.

Be appalled at this, O heavens,
and shudder with great horror,"
declares the LORD.

"My people have committed two sins:
They have forsaken me,
the spring of living water,
and have dug their own cisterns,
broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

Is Israel a servant, a slave by birth?
Why then has he become plunder?

...i never said it was consistent. i'm just pointing out a point of bigotry, not an overall assessment.

So what constitutes bigotry? Christianity, the Bible, was not seen as anything separate from Judaism until Paul was in Antioch. It was a sect of Judaism, and, in many ways, still is. There are those that believe their messiah has come, and those that believe He has not.

...no, christianity is as close to judaism now as buddhism is to hinduism. it's a religion that has an origin within the one, but is now separate.

To take individual passages critical of the Jewish leadership at the time and say it is evidence of bigotry requires that you not be familiar with the books of the Prophets that are part of Jewish canon that do exactly the same thing.

um...i actually started with a passage about anti-gentile and anti-samaritan bigotry...
to take this thread and say it is critical of a passage in which jesus is critical of the jewish leadership at the time to accuse me of something requires that you not be familiar with the initial post of this thread.

Anti-Jewish? Hardly. Why, then, would it be written that the good news, the news about the messiah, is to be preached to the Jew first, then the Gentile, and that the Jew is closer to God and has a place that no Gentile could ever attain (the first is verbatim, the second requires more interpretation)?

again, it's not consistent bigotry.
in some places it's anti-gentile, in others it's antisemitic because of DIFFERENT HUMAN AUTHORS.

[edit on 9/12/07 by madnessinmysoul]

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

listen, we're really off topic.... and i think you should realize that. you've threadjacked this in an attempt to avoid the real issue, that there is bigotry in scripture.

now, i'll quickly address your points:
you have no historical evidence for jesus or the 13 apostles
the argument that i provide doesn't stand up to other historical figures whose existence is proven... i already showed that with your attempt at saying "you can't prove socrates and plato exist"

now, back on topic. ok?

I haven't "threadjacked" as I've just answered the questions you put forth but......we are off topic.

To quickly address your points: I don't agree with them. As I said, the same arguments you use can be used against any historical figure from 2,000 years ago.

I'm not trying to avoid anything as I don't believe there is bigotry in scripture, at least not what God would Himself consider bigotry. That, as beauty, is in the eye of the beholder and He is The Beholder.

Please be explicit and show me where you feel scripture is bigoted and if I can, I'll answer.


.........Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


i already have pointed out places, please backtrack and find them yourself.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

i already have pointed out places, please backtrack and find them yourself.

I answered those Madness.....but you never commented on them, I think...it's been awhile.



........Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


you never commented on all the points of antisemitism i showed to be in john...

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

In response to you believing I didn't answer your question about the bigotry against the Jewish people:


I thought I did comment on this. That is when we got into the "special pleading" thing. In my first two posts, on this thread which I believe are the 4th and 9th, go into more detail but I'll give a short synopsis here.

John
5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (this is jesus talking to jews)
11:8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. (again blaming the jews for the death of jesus... not the pharisees, all the jews)
19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Strong's #2453 Ioudaios, from 2448 (in the sense of 2455 as a country): Judean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah - Jew (-ess), of Judaea.
(other descriptions - A region of Pal.: - Judeaea. to become a Judaean, i.e Judaize - live as the Jews, i.e. resembling a Judaean, in a manner resembling a Judaean, the Jewis faith and usages.)

So...this tells us that a "Jew" can be of the Jewish faith or can be a resident of Judea. Also, as Christ Himself tells us, there are those that:

Rev.2:9 .....I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Those are the "Jews" He was speaking to in John 8:44, the ones that are "of your father the devil." The ones that "say they are Jews" but are not.

Jesus was of the tribe of Judah so He was a Jew. His disciples were Jewish. God's chosen people are the 12 tribes of Israel, of which Judah was one. They follow the Jewish laws and prophets. That is what Christianity is based on. There is no bigotry against true Jews so we must ask, who were the Jews that were persecuting Him? Were they of the Jewish faith, were they simply residents of Judea or were they "of the synagogue of Satan"...and "of your father the devil?"


............Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


so you're saying that john is talking about residents of a nation that didn't exist at a time?

sorry, that one falls flat on its face. at the time the area was known as palestine (after philistines)

the argument you put forth also doesn't work in the context...

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

so you're saying that john is talking about residents of a nation that didn't exist at a time?

sorry, that one falls flat on its face. at the time the area was known as palestine (after philistines)

No, I didn't say Judea was a nation. When called Jew some were of the Jewish faith (of the tribe of Judah), some were simply residents of the area, others were "of the synagogue of Satan".

the argument you put forth also doesn't work in the context...

Why?


........Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


your argument doesn't work because in the area there were jews and non-jews. the non-jews were known as either romans, gentiles or samaritans. those called jews at the time belonged to a specific faith.

in the context of the gospel of john, jew means follower of judaism