It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
your argument doesn't work because in the area there were jews and non-jews. the non-jews were known as either romans, gentiles or samaritans. those called jews at the time belonged to a specific faith.
in the context of the gospel of john, jew means follower of judaism
11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (this is jesus talking to jews)
11:8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. (again blaming the jews for the death of jesus... not the pharisees, all the jews)
19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Originally posted by whirlwind
.John
7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
The Jews seeking to kill Him were not your everyday, run of the mill Jews. Vs. 13 above tells us that they themself were afraid of the bad Jews. Compare it to Christians. Some are true Christians and live that life, others say they are.... but are liars.
again... you're missing my point... especially since you quote random parts of the bible outside of the book of john.
i'm not saying the whole of the new testament is antisemitic, i'm saying the book of john is.
however, the rest of the bible does have bigotry... just ask the midianites. ...now.. back to the subject. you're playing semantics
Originally posted by whirlwind
John
7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
The Jews seeking to kill Him were not your everyday, run of the mill Jews. Vs. 13 above tells us that they themself were afraid of the bad Jews. Compare it to Christians. Some are true Christians and live that life, others say they are.... but are liars.
Madness -
no, it says they were afraid of THE jews. not the 'BAD' jews. you insert the word "bad" in there. look in the section i bolded.
it's odd... for a discussion on an independent book of the bible, you only bring up john once... and only a few verses of it
Originally posted by whirlwind
The only "random parts" I quote are those that directly relate to the subject.
We discussed the Midanites before. As I said then, God did not just decide to smite them for no reason.
Who do you think the men were that feared the Jews? They too were Jews. Why would a Jew fear another Jew?
The "bad" Jews were in power in the temple and hated Christ.
Who were the "bad" Jews? Those put in power by Rome and those that resided in Judea and those that were of the synagogue of Satan....Not God's children, those of the tribe of Judah, of which Christ Himself was one. Truly, to think less would be to be anti-semitic.
I don't understand that comment. Those verses in John are all the ones you quoted trying to make your point about bigotry. They were not my choice, but yours.
Madness, do you see what I am saying about the Jews referenced in John. Can you see that they are not just Jews of the Jewish faith or are my arguments falling on deaf ears? There truly is no bigotry against Jews in the Bible.
Originally posted by whirlwind
The only "random parts" I quote are those that directly relate to the subject.
Madness -
but they don't relate to the subject. the subject is the book of john.
WW -
We discussed the Midanites before. As I said then, God did not just decide to smite them for no reason.
Madness -
and the raping of the virgins after the slaughter? what was that for?
WW -
Who do you think the men were that feared the Jews? They too were Jews. Why would a Jew fear another Jew?
Madness -
at that point they had essentially renounced judaic tradition by following someone that claimed to be god... they were no longer jews.
you must be unfamiliar with jewish law... they would have been required to kill anyone claiming to be god. they were actually quite the good jews for hating someone that claimed to be god.
WW -
Who were the "bad" Jews? Those put in power by Rome and those that resided in Judea and those that were of the synagogue of Satan....Not God's children, those of the tribe of Judah, of which Christ Himself was one. Truly, to think less would be to be anti-semitic.
Madness -
um... the jews in power that were put there in rome only extended to one person... so your argument fails.
WW -
I don't understand that comment. Those verses in John are all the ones you quoted trying to make your point about bigotry. They were not my choice, but yours.
Madness -
i know... but i'd think you'd be able to find a place within john that directly contradicted the heavy antisemitic overtones in the passages i brought up if the book weren't antisemitic.
WW -
Madness, do you see what I am saying about the Jews referenced in John. Can you see that they are not just Jews of the Jewish faith or are my arguments falling on deaf ears? There truly is no bigotry against Jews in the Bible.
Madness -
the arguments aren't falling on deaf ears, just ones that see how your argument is flawed.
these are jews of the jewish faith being talked about. in now way could a person living in the area at that point in history be anything but a roman, samaritan, or a religious jew. the romans are referred ot by a seperate word and the samaritans had no reason to feel anything towards jesus.
basically your argument seems to rest on "the pharisees weren't jews"
quite the opposite, they were the jews following the law properly... except proper jews would have actually stoned jesus to death for his claims
Originally posted by whirlwind
They aren't separate stories and there should be no contradictions.
The Bible is essentially the story of one Man and how His family relates to the world.
The Old Testament points to Him and the New Testament tells about His life on earth and events after that. The scriptures I chose related to the subject we discussed in John.
Nowhere was "rape" mentioned, or implied.
The virgins of the Medianites were in the Hebrew family. Median was the son of Abraham and Katurah, his second wife.
The virgins were not to be slaughtered because they had not been contaminated with the pagan rites. Rather, it appears to me they were to become wives of the Hebrews:
I think we have been conditioned by Islam so that when we hear the word virgin, we think of the 72 virgins waiting for terrorists in heaven.
He didn't claim to be God. He did say that He was the Messiah (John 4:26) He also maintained all Jewish laws:
Matt.5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
No one had reason to hate Him except the scribes and Pharisees at the temple. Christ was taking business away from them and showing the false traditions they claimed.
God said Thou shalt not kill, so they wouldn't be too good, were they?
I'm not familiar with Jewish law but wouldn't they have to prove He said that and to my knowledge He never said He was God?
True, but wouldn't he surround himself with those of like mind?
So...a Pharisee, a "ruler of the Jews" went to Jesus to be taught truth. The question to me is why did he go to Jesus at night? Did he fear the other Jews - the "bad" ones?
Everyone living in Judea was considered a Jew, as in "of that area".
As far as the Pharisees not being Jews, that isn't what I said. Of course they are of the Jewish faith but some, as some Christians, are not truly Jews as others are not truly Christians - they are fakes.
The Pharisees, as Christ showed were wrong in some of their interpretations of the law and the traditions that they themselves made.
(by me)
they just had an interpretation that you'd say isn't right because you've been brought up by your faith to think so.
Originally posted by whirlwind
They aren't separate stories and there should be no contradictions.....The Bible is essentially the story of one Man and how His family relates to the world.... The Old Testament points to Him and the New Testament tells about His life on earth and events after that.
Madness -
yet they are separate stories... and there are a few contradictions.......you clearly have never opened up the old testament.
no, they don't... john was written separately.
like the rest of the bible, it was never intended to be part of a compendium, it was meant to be a stand-alone book.
WW -
Nowhere was "rape" mentioned, or implied..... The virgins were not to be slaughtered because they had not been contaminated with the pagan rites. Rather, it appears to me they were to become wives of the Hebrews:
Madness -
taking virgins for the uses of soldiers... that is implied....to your odd contortionist thoughts, it would. however, to anyone who knows the nature of bronze age warfare and puts the statements made into that context.. you'd be wrong.
WW -
The virgins of the Medianites were in the Hebrew family. Median was the son of Abraham and Katurah, his second wife.
Madness -
...mIdianites.
you're skewing things. midia has no connection to median. midia was a place
WW -
I think we have been conditioned by Islam so that when we hear the word virgin, we think of the 72 virgins waiting for terrorists in heaven.
Madness -
...wow, a random attack on islam.
news flash... in islam, those terrorists don't get 72 virgins... only REAL martyrs get them. ...shows how much you know about islam
bigoted attacks against it aren't well advised, especially when they're random like this.
Whirlwind -
He didn't claim to be God. He did say that He was the Messiah (John 4:26) He also maintained all Jewish laws:
Matt.5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Madness -
again... we're talking about john...
WW -
No one had reason to hate Him except the scribes and Pharisees at the temple. Christ was taking business away from them and showing the false traditions they claimed.
Madness -
the traditions they claimed were scriptural.
and jesus wasn't all that popular... were he popular, we'd have documentation of him dating back to his lifetime.
WW -
God said Thou shalt not kill, so they wouldn't be too good, were they?
Madness -
NO. god said thou shalt not MURDER. honestly, people with their little knowledge of their own commandments. look into the original hebrew word, it's the word for "MURDER" not "kill"
Madness -
killing was actually ok. so long as it was a non-jew... or if it was a jew who had committed a crime.
WW -
I'm not familiar with Jewish law but wouldn't they have to prove He said that and to my knowledge He never said He was God?
Madness -
he called himself "i am" ....that's saying he's god.. and it's odd that you have such little knowledge of jewish law... when it's pretty much all in your own holy book.
WW -
True, but wouldn't he surround himself with those of like mind?
Madness -
...no. actually, it would extend to the "king" such as herod. he had nothing to do with the pharisees and the scribes.
WW -
So...a Pharisee, a "ruler of the Jews" went to Jesus to be taught truth. The question to me is why did he go to Jesus at night? Did he fear the other Jews - the "bad" ones?
Madness -
hmm... it seems that the bad jews apply to the jews that don't accept jesus...that would mean the majority of jews... do you see what i'm getting at? this is the groundwork for antisemitism.
WW -
Everyone living in Judea was considered a Jew, as in "of that area".
Madness -
...nobody lived in judea at the time of jesus. it didn't exist. the regional name for the area was "palestine"
this argument fails, i'm going to ignore the alabamian analogy.
WW -
As far as the Pharisees not being Jews, that isn't what I said. Of course they are of the Jewish faith but some, as some Christians, are not truly Jews as others are not truly Christians - they are fakes.
Madness -
no, they just had an interpretation that you'd say isn't right because you've been brought up by your faith to think so.
Madness -
Jesus didn't show that their interpretations were wrong... their interpretations are still right if you look at the law... jesus just put forth another interpretation that can be considered right.
Originally posted by whirlwind
There are a few contradictions but most have been answered with deeper study and of the very few remaining I know they will be answered....one day.
The difference I'm finding is that you read the Bible to find problems while others read it to find answers. "Seek and ye shall find", and we do.
None of us will ever know all there is to know in the Bible but my statement above still stands. He was at the beginning and His story flows throughout the Bible.
Gen.1:2...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
It is amazing when you consider that different men penned the Bible centuries apart and yet the story told is consistent. That alone shows God's Divine handiwork.
They were written separately but they tell one story - His story.
The penalty for rape was death. These virgins were to be taken as wives.
It was a place, a nation on the southern border of Israel but it was named for a person and that person was Midian, son of Abraham and Keturah. [I didn't skew things but I did misspell them].
Where was the "random attack" and how was it bigoted? If I wanted to attack them it wouldn't be by using the phrase they themself use.
the books of the bible weren't meant to be a consistent narrative... though paul's letters were meant to have a consistent message...there has yet to be an answer to "how did judas die?"
WW -
The difference I'm finding is that you read the Bible to find problems while others read it to find answers. "Seek and ye shall find", and we do.
Madness -
no, i don't read the bible looking for problems, i read the bible looking for what's in the bible. ..i find problems, i find good stuff, i find ridiculous things, i find sensible things ...the thing is that you look at the bible for answers... i'm not looking for anything in particular.
WW -
None of us will ever know all there is to know in the Bible but my statement above still stands. He was at the beginning and His story flows throughout the Bible.
Madness -
no, not really.
again, this shows how little you know of the history of the bible. it wasn't meant to stand as 1 narrative.... hell... parts of it are just made up history... like any mention of the jewish people being monotheistic prior to visiting egypt. ...or the jews being slaves to the egyptians...hell, the son of the pharaoh mentioned in exodus was found.. the firstborn son... not killed by a plague, killed by blunt force trauma to the head.
WW -
Gen.1:2...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Madness -
...not connected.
WW -
The penalty for rape was death. These virgins were to be taken as wives.
Madness -
the penalty for the rape of a JEWISH WOMAN was death....
and the woman who was raped would get killed if she didn't scream for help loud enough... great justice system. ...
however, there was the alternative punishment of having to marry the woman you raped... yeah, that was a fair one too.
WW -
It was a place, a nation on the southern border of Israel but it was named for a person and that person was Midian, son of Abraham and Keturah. [I didn't skew things but I did misspell them].
Madness -
...but it wasn't considered jewish. it was considered sub-human (to the jews all non-jews were sub-human)
and again... twas a genocide. nothing forgivable about slaughter and mass-rape.
WW -
Where was the "random attack" and how was it bigoted? If I wanted to attack them it wouldn't be by using the phrase they themself use.
Madness -
....it's a bigoted random attack because we're not discussing islam and you're equating the whole of islam with a narrow minded fundamentalist belief system it would be like me saying you're just like fred phelps.
WW -
It is amazing when you consider that different men penned the Bible centuries apart and yet the story told is consistent. That alone shows God's Divine handiwork.
Madness -
the first 2 chapters of the bible are inconsistent with each other!
creation story 1
creation story 2
...
Madness -
you're clearly looking at the bible through the lens of "it can't be wrong"
i'm looking at the bible through the lens of "let's see what's in it"
i'm being objective, you're looking for something.
WW -
They were written separately but they tell one story - His story.
Madness -
they tell several accounts of the same event..
there are multiple accounts of creation
multiple accounts of the receiving of the 10 commandments
and multiple accounts of the end of the world...
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by whirlwind
whirlwind... go up to a rabbi, any rabbi of your choice that has significant experience.
ask him how many creation stories are in genesis. he will tell you "2"
why?
because he knows the book of genesis, his people wrote it...
it's 2 separate creation stories.
in account 1 the earth etc are made
in account 2.... same things are made again, in a different order
you can't say the adam and eve story is an elaboration when other things are created besides humanity in the second story. hell, the adam and eve part happens in genesis 3...
Genesis 1:25-27
(Humans were created after the other animals.)
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.
Genesis 2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.