The argument over the existence of God

Originally posted by Equinox99
So what you are saying is that it did not create the universe but just help expand it over time? So what did create the universe then?

You seem to be giving the BB more input than it has, it is an explanation of what happened, rather than some motivating mechanism. That is, BB cosmology didn't create or help, it just a description/explanation of what likely happened from point A to B.

I think that's probably a bit of the issue you have. You seem to be thinking teleologically (i.e. looking for purpose or intent), using loaded words like 'create'.

But to answer the question. Nobody knows what happened before planck time. Lots of ideas as you've found out, some are good, some not so good. With time we'll probably be able to test some of them (in fact, some will be tested soon I believe).

[edit on 10-9-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by AncientVoid
Why do you think there's a purpose to everything?

Why are you so insistant that there isnt?

You know science is trying to figure this out and we don't pretend to know everything, unlike religion. If you can tell me how did god came about then i'll answer your questions.

I will tell you right now, I do not know that answer. I can admit that. Alot of people here cannot.

I think the evidence supports a 'God like figure' more so then the 'big bang, evolution theory'. Now you can ask "well whys that?" We are living beings that live in an extordinary world. Everything around us fits us so perfectly. The fruits and vegetables, meat, and poultry, trees, and grass, water which feeds EVERYTHING. Its as if someone designed it. Its to perfect. How did evolution 'get it right' without some sort of force pushing it into a certain direction? We cannot just evolve on our own and still be the beings we are today. Infact, we couldnt evovle period.

What I find interesting is the fossil record. I think it was in the 1970's, that a prehistoric fish was caught off the coast of south america or somewhere in asia. This fish was thought to have died out with the dinosaurs over a 'bogus' "65,000,000" years ago. It hadnt changed a bit. Not once! Where was evolution during those 65,000,000+ years? Crocodiles! What about crocodiles? they are virtually the SAME as they were 225 million years ago. No evolutionary changes. How did whales go from landing mammals, to gigantic sea mammals that spend no time on land what so ever? Where are the bones of a whale before it became a 'sea creatur'? Surely there would be proof that helps validate what evolution bases its 'theorys' off of. I am going to stop there, but i could go on..

lol you can talk, lacking proof? Are you talking about god here? No proof what so ever.

I am talking about a creator, many choose to call him god, but i think that name associates itself to religion a bit to much, and what did i say about religion, It has been poorly represented.

And the proof is....well...you. It is literally right under your nose.

The proof of evolution is overwhelming. Not believing in evolution is like believing everything revolves around the Earth.

Again, no its not. Where is the proof? If there was proof, I wouldnt be here debating it. So obviously, it is not overwhelming enough. But it clearly has you fooled.

How can you even suggest there's a god behind evolution when you guys say there's no such thing as evolution? First it was 'there's no evolution' and it's starting to become 'so what if there is, god created it'. =.=...

Because I just dont believe in it. The evidence is lacking. Is what I met, however, is, If you wanted to make that your excuse (God saw evolution through), it would have more ground to stand on then then current one.

Religion provides nothing...

Again with the "religion excuse"..

Yet god does nothing. Hmm some great god there...

And yet you completely missed my point (intentionally) to take a cheap shot at religion. Was that reply even to you? Does Mr.fjf have two accounts? I suggest you go back, read what Mr.fjf wrote, then reread what I wrote to help you understand the purpose behind what I wrote. You sir, are trolling.

'Why we are here?' is not a simple question and we do not know yet that's if there's a reason. Why don't you answer that question for us if it's so simple? Since i'm sure religion and your god is all so knowing...

Something created us. For what purpose, now theres the real question.

God is not even a theory...

Not to you "monkey to man" boys. But since when did your type make up the rules? Ciao

[edit on 10-9-2007 by West Coast]

Originally posted by jfj123

Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms to exist?

Chance... The same way someone wins the lotto.


But, is there not a purpose to the lotto? Bad analogy.

No actually it refers to random chance. The analogy is just fine thank you.

or the universe to exist, it must be this way. Being this way, allows for but does not require the possibility of complex life forms.

that makes no sense.

Yes it does, it's just not what you want to hear. The universe came into being because it could based on a number of factors. Had the factors changed, the universe would not have come into being.

Of course it doesn't but science does attempt to answer questions by using the scientific method and not by stories or religious dogma.


Forget religion for just a second. Because religion I do believe has been given a bad wrap. I think to a large degree, it has been poorely represnted. This is somthing, I feel you are just going to have to think for yourself on. How did we get here. Forget evolution for a second, and think the other way. What if somthing created us. This creator, gave us a purpose unique only to ourselves,to be alive in this vast universe. What is that purpose. Do you think the big bang along with evolution supporst that purpose? What created the 'bang' in order for it to happen? What created the mass of the big bang? How did it come about? What created that 'matter' inside of the 'big bang' from which we, as well as the milky way, orions belt, big dipper, small dipper, and billions of other galaxys came to exist from? Did this not, by evolutionary standards, give way to our existance?

I think your missing the big picture. What I'm telling you is that although science doesn't have all the answer, it doesn't automatically mean an all mighty being did it. Even if you were to disprove evolution tomorrow, it in no way validates the existence of a supreme being.

Again, if you believe in evolution (which is lacking in the proof department) How or why do you feel that there wasnt something, maybe some supreme god, monitering and twitching our evolution pattern?

Evolution isn't lacking in the proof department. Thats why its called a THEORY and not just an IDEA or FAITH.

I don't think we have the answer for everything.

Wait a second Mr.jfj, what about science?!

What about it??? I said we don't currently have the knowledge of everything. We have the knowledge of some things. For example, we know evolution is TRUE.
By the way, sarcasm is childish.

provide evidence showing statistically that humans are wrong more then they are right.

Well Mr.jfj, why would I go about providing statistics, statistics which just so happens to be 'developed' by the same people I called wrong more then right?

Well you made the statement right? I'm just asking you to back up what you said. If you can't back it up, don't say it or tell me your just guessing/speculating.

You are a perfect example of the prototypical believer in evolution. Theres always answers, as long as you have statistics to back them up.
As I said earlier. Science, cannot provide all the answers my friend.

I never said it could. There's a lot about a lot we don't know. There also is alot about alot we do know.

Watch CSPAN. Watch the democratic and republican debates, I dont know, its common sense. I guess the "BS berometer" is built into a select few of us.

Billons of people in this world starve to death. While the rest of the world stands by and does nothing. This world we live in today is controlled by the corrupt power that is paper money. We humans worship paper money, it is what be base our common lives around. We have misplaced priorities as an advanced species on this earth. That is why, I happen to think we are wrong more then we are right. Our vision is skewed, we rape and pillage earth for its dwindleing natural resources, we go out of our way to exploit other human beings just for our own personal gain. Modern politics, modern economics, all apart of a cut throat buisiness that is controlled by greed and power. And yet, you question me, by asking for statistical data, that proves just how wrong we are versus how right we are?

HUH??????

Everyone should believe the Theory of Evolution as it is a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations.

Science, does NOT have the answers to everything, Mr.fjf.

I never said it did. What I said was, "Everyone should believe the Theory of Evolution as it is a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations."

It is not, and never has been 'right'. It has never been able to answer the common question, "what is our purpose". Evolution is theory, a theory that cannot answer even the most simplest, yet eluding questions out there, "why the hell are we here". Out of this vast universe, we are here, why? Things are to finely tuned for it to just be coincidence followed by the theory that is evolution.

If anything, your argument to me about evolution has as many holes as religion does to you.

So science has never been right. Well since you are reading this on your computer, you are wrong. The computer was made by SCIENCE !!

Again, why does there need to be a purpose for us to be here???? The theory of evolution isn't about the philosophy of the mind. It's about facts. The theory of evolution is not meant to answer why we're here and what our purpose is.. Thats like saying 2+2=4 because the color of our sky is blue.

If things are too finely tuned for it to be just coincidence, please prove it or are you saying this is just your opinion??

reply to post by jfj123


You are right, science did create the computer. Science has knowledge, yes indeed it does. However claiming that God is not real because there is no evidence or proof backing it up is contradicting yourself don't you think? You said it yourselves that we do not know how the universe started. The Big Bang is not from point A to B it is from B to C, if it was from A to B then I would not be here debating about who started this universe.

[edit on 10-9-2007 by Equinox99]

Originally posted by Equinox99
You are right, science did create the computer. Science has knowledge, yes indeed it does. However claiming that God is not real because there is no evidence or proof backing it up is contradicting yourself don't you think? You said it yourselves that we do not know how the universe started. The Big Bang is not from point A to B it is from B to C, if it was from A to B then I would not be here debating about who started this universe.

"The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe whose primary assertion is that the universe has expanded into its current state from a primordial condition of enormous density and temperature."

Now your free to show any evidence that supports the idea that a divine being created the initial singularity and caused the expansion

Originally posted by Equinox99
The Big Bang is not from point A to B it is from B to C, if it was from A to B then I would not be here debating about who started this universe.

Heh, it wasn't meant to be a definitive statement as to what was the exact starting point of everything and now. Just a saying. I could have said from x to y...

Originally posted by West Coast
What I find interesting is the fossil record. I think it was in the 1970's, that a prehistoric fish was caught off the coast of south america or somewhere in asia. This fish was thought to have died out with the dinosaurs over a 'bogus' "65,000,000" years ago. It hadnt changed a bit. Not once!

It had.

Please check the taxonomy. The living coelecanth, Latimeria, have never been found in the fossil record.

Crocodiles! What about crocodiles? they are virtually the SAME as they were 225 million years ago. No evolutionary changes.

How can they be virtually the same, but have undergone no evolutionary changes?

Indeed, modern crocodiles have been around for about 70 million years. Before that there were other different forms of crocodilians.

How did whales go from landing mammals, to gigantic sea mammals that spend no time on land what so ever? Where are the bones of a whale before it became a 'sea creatur'? Surely there would be proof that helps validate what evolution bases its 'theorys' off of. I am going to stop there, but i could go on..

I keep posting this, maybe people have an aversion to possible cognitive dissonance...



There is lots of evidence of whale evolution. You just need to look further than creationist websites.

Originally posted by West Coast
How did whales go from landing mammals, to gigantic sea mammals that spend no time on land what so ever? Where are the bones of a whale before it became a 'sea creatur'? Surely there would be proof that helps validate what evolution bases its 'theorys' off of. I am going to stop there, but i could go on..

Happy you asked

"Whales, of course, are sea animals with flippers, lacking external hindlimbs. Since they are also mammals, the consensus phylogeny indicates that whales and dolphins evolved from land mammals with legs. In recent years, we have found several transitional forms of whales with legs, both capable and incapable of terrestrial locomotion."

So not only did we predict that whales evolved from terrestrial mammals, but we also found transitional fossils...

[edit on 11-9-2007 by DarkSide]

Originally posted by West Coast
Why are you so insistant that there isnt?

because there is no evidence to show that there is.

I think the evidence supports a 'God like figure' more so then the 'big bang, evolution theory'

provide it.

. Now you can ask "well whys that?" We are living beings that live in an extordinary world. Everything around us fits us so perfectly. The fruits and vegetables, meat, and poultry, trees, and grass, water which feeds EVERYTHING. Its as ifsomeone designed it.

your entire argument rests on those 2 words... which is a very weak foundation

Its to perfect.

it actually isn't all that perfect... damn good, but nowhere near perfect.

How did evolution 'get it right' without some sort of force pushing it into a certain direction?

trial and error... natural selection and such.

We cannot just evolve on our own and still be the beings we are today. Infact, we couldnt evovle period.

all the scientific evidence would point to you being wrong here.

What I find interesting is the fossil record. I think it was in the 1970's, that a prehistoric fish was caught off the coast of south america or somewhere in asia. This fish was thought to have died out with the dinosaurs over a 'bogus' "65,000,000" years ago. It hadnt changed a bit. Not once! Where was evolution during those 65,000,000+ years? Crocodiles! What about crocodiles? they are virtually the SAME as they were 225 million years ago. No evolutionary changes. How did whales go from landing mammals, to gigantic sea mammals that spend no time on land what so ever? Where are the bones of a whale before it became a 'sea creatur'? Surely there would be proof that helps validate what evolution bases its 'theorys' off of. I am going to stop there, but i could go on..

already addressed

And the proof is....well...you.

It is literally right under your nose.

all that's under my nose is my upper lip and sexy, sexy mustache

Again, no its not. Where is the proof? If there was proof, I wouldnt be here debating it. So obviously, it is not overwhelming enough. But it clearly has you fooled.

no, it's clear that you haven't looked into the subject... especially with your questions about the evolution of whales.

Because I just dont believe in it. The evidence is lacking. Is what I met, however, is, If you wanted to make that your excuse (God saw evolution through), it would have more ground to stand on then then current one.

yet you cannot prove the existence of the creator...
you work with a cyclical argument
god created everything, so everything proves god because god created it...

Something created us. For what purpose, now theres the real question.

you have yet to provide proof that something that could create us exists... let alone that it did.

God is not even a theory...

Not to you "monkey to man" boys. But since when did your type make up the rules?

Ciao

um...
"your type" would apply to anyone who is using a scientific definition of "theory"

god is currently a hypothesis... a horribly unsubstantiated one.

edit: fixed a quote mistake

[edit on 9/11/07 by madnessinmysoul]

reply to post by Thousand

I think you misunderstood me...Your argument works both ways. To the benifit of both sides. It can be aruged that there is no proof of God because science does not support the existence..Just as well as because it exists there is a God.

A city unexpectedly smote with fire that science could not explain...To me that is along the same lines as science not being able to explain what was here before the big bang...It just was...again. Would it have to be that big? The death and destruction of thousands..if not millions of innocent people. Or could it be something more on a personal level?

God and the fat man in the red suit are not the same thing. Santa is not credited with the creation of all things...lol

The bible also says we are not presume the mind of God. To me free will is a big part of the bible. You have the choice of rather to believe in God or not. The bible never says you have to believe in God. It just says you have to believe in God to get into Heaven. Free will could be the random variable to the way the world has played out. Maybe God has a hands off approach to the world...Who knows.

reply to post by DarkSide

"The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe whose primary assertion is that the universe has expanded into its current state from a primordial condition of enormous density and temperature."

So wait, is that evidence or just a guess that science has made? Because science has not traveled back in time to check how it happened. So they have an idea of how the universe began, yet they can not even figure out what the purpose of dark matter is, or where it comes from. Did the Big Bang eventually make dark matter? If science can not answer questions about these types of stuff, nor have evidence on how the universe started then it is just a hunch. Evidence is like a witness, or anything you can present to prove your case.
In this matter, there is no evidence, so when science does get the evidence you can come in these forums and start a thread called "God is not real!"
But until then this battle between both sides over the existence of God is a stalemate.

reply to post by Equinox99


equinox, people don't need to prove that god doesn't exist... you need to prove that god does.
an argument over the existence of something goes as follows:

side A affirms that thing X exists
side B negates it until proof of X is demonstrated
side A then attempts to prove X exists

you're asking side B to disprove something that isn't proven...
it'd be like a little kid asking you to disprove the existence of an invisible pink unicorn... you can't DISPROVE that it exists, but you'll think that even the very idea is absurd.

Originally posted by Equinox99
So wait, is that evidence or just a guess that science has made? Because science has not traveled back in time to check how it happened. So they have an idea of how the universe began, yet they can not even figure out what the purpose of dark matter is, or where it comes from. Did the Big Bang eventually make dark matter? If science can not answer questions about these types of stuff, nor have evidence on how the universe started then it is just a hunch. Evidence is like a witness, or anything you can present to prove your case.
In this matter, there is no evidence, so when science does get the evidence you can come in these forums and start a thread called "God is not real!"
But until then this battle between both sides over the existence of God is a stalemate.

Please educate yourself on the matter before saying there's no evidence and that all cosmology is a hunch. The Big bang model has predicted lots of stuff that turned out to be true once we had the proper instruments to take the appropriate measures. And there is lots of evidence, such as the cosmic microwave radiation, red shift, etc.

I'll also add that you are assuming the universe started, probably because it's required for it to be created, am I right?

[edit on 11-9-2007 by DarkSide]

So if science does not know how something works, they throw out a theory and say it is true. Tell me something, how many theories of the universe are there?
Big Bang, The Bouncing Universe, The Protouniverse, The Inflationary Theory, and I can keep naming some. Does that mean they are right? Science is debating about which theory is the right one, so if they are debating for theories, how do you know it's a fact that the universe started with a big bang?

The Big Bang theory, which claims the universe began 15 billion years ago when a single point of unimaginable heat and density spontaneously exploded, is a scientific tale so well-known in popular culture that most people accept it as a fact.

However, while the Big Bang theory explains many mechanisms of the universe, it leaves plenty of questions unanswered.

What caused the Big Bang? Why is the universe flat rather than curved, as predicted by the theory of relativity? Why is matter clumped into galaxies but more uniform at larger scales? How did the laws of the universe come into being?

Please keep in mind that there is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference between the Theory of Evolution on one planet (ie earth) and The Theory of Everything (ie the universe). Just because we don't know exactly how the universe began, doesn't mean we don't know how evolution happens on earth. Thats like saying that because you know how your piggy bank works, you know how World Banking works.

reply to post by jfj123

without revealed knowledge being given to us thru moses and the prophets from G-D we would know nothing of why we are alive and our existence would be meaningless and useless until we had a purpose a goal revealed to strive towards.G-D is not so cruel that They would give us the ability to comprehend Their creation from beginning to end and then deny us to have a part in it.what parent that loves their children would deny them to share in the parents wealth and everything they have?what was revealed to the prophets and moses has suffered a lot of abuse thanks to being mishandled by some of the scribes and translators that couldnt resist the urge to make little changes because they just couldnt believe what they were reading while they were making copies---thankfully the changes they made they also copied in their side notes----it is possible to undo the damage that these do gooders did because of their notes----it just makes for more studying for us.

Yea, ok ??????

Here's a timely question for you. You said this:

G-D is not so cruel that They would give us the ability to comprehend Their creation from beginning to end and then deny us to have a part in it.what parent that loves their children would deny them to share in the parents wealth and everything they have?

What kind of parent would allow their children to be burned alive in a raging inferno (WTC's)because some terrorist A H%les wanted to express their "free will" by stopping others from expressing their "free will" by killing them with jet planes???
A completely omnipotent being could save his innocent children from this soooooo .....what??? did he punch out on lunch???
Doesn't that sound cruel to let someone burn alive???
sounds pretty cruel to me !!!!!!

What sane parent would allow this to happen to their children if they could stop it with a waive of their hands????? COME ON!!!

Originally posted by DarkSide

Originally posted by West Coast
How did whales go from landing mammals, to gigantic sea mammals that spend no time on land what so ever? Where are the bones of a whale before it became a 'sea creatur'? Surely there would be proof that helps validate what evolution bases its 'theorys' off of. I am going to stop there, but i could go on..

Happy you asked

"Whales, of course, are sea animals with flippers, lacking external hindlimbs. Since they are also mammals, the consensus phylogeny indicates that whales and dolphins evolved from land mammals with legs. In recent years, we have found several transitional forms of whales with legs, both capable and incapable of terrestrial locomotion."

So not only did we predict that whales evolved from terrestrial mammals, but we also found transitional fossils...

Im not buying it for the simple fact that what is known as the whales "hind limbs" today (which is the nail in the coffin for the evolution of th whale), is actually for mating purposes, meaning this is how the whale goes about procreating. It is not, what 'used to be' hind limbs... What you have, is not proof. And where are the pics? I just see drawings. I do not find what you have, convincing enough. And It most deffinatly is not concrete evidence. Proove to me, that what we have here, is not an entirely new species of animal.

I for one, would like to see the actual evidence, from which they developed there theory on. Even then, it is not proof. Just speculation.

Originally posted by jfj123
No actually it refers to random chance. The analogy is just fine thank you.

Random chance? Okay, random chance would be, me meeting an old high school buddy 20 years down the road, in a cut off, isolated part of the congo in africa.

That, would have sounded much better. But what you used, did not. This whole argument is about 'purpose'. Now, the lotto, which is what you based your analogy off of, has purpose behind it, would you not agree? The "chance" is a part of that purpose.

Yes it does, it's just not what you want to hear. The universe came into being because it could based on a number of factors. Had the factors changed, the universe would not have come into being.

Factor, what kind of factors? Your not swaying me. Sway me.

I think your missing the big picture. What I'm telling you is that although science doesn't have all the answer, it doesn't automatically mean an all mighty being did it. Even if you were to disprove evolution tomorrow, it in no way validates the existence of a supreme being.

No it doesnt. But, how did we get here? I am not the one being narrowminded here. I am looking at all four corners of the side. You are not, dont worry, your not alone. You have a few followers.

Evolution isn't lacking in the proof department. Thats why its called a THEORY and not just an IDEA or FAITH.

"Scientific Theory" which to many, is a form of faith.

We have the knowledge of some things.

Or what we "think" we have the "knowledge" of.

By the way, sarcasm is childish.

Only to those who cannot defend it.

(And do lighten up Mr.jfj, you need a sense of humor to appreciate sarcasm, i can see you have none.)

Well you made the statement right?

I did. And it is true.

I'm just asking you to back up what you said. If you can't back it up, don't say it or tell me your just guessing/speculating.

I can see the obvious still eludes you.

I never said it could. There's a lot about a lot we don't know. There also is alot about alot we do know.

No you didnt. You just ask me to back up what I say with sources. You seem a bit anal. I can see you have no thought of your own.

And by "alot we do know" do feel free to elborate on that. Lets see how well your arguments stand.

HUH??????

Ahhh yes. the last line of defense for the defensless, playing dumb because they have nothing to say. Whats wrong, cat got your toung Mr.fjf?

I can see the obvious is still eluding you.

I never said it did. What I said was, "Everyone should believe the Theory of Evolution as it is a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations."

If it was that easy, and evolution seemd to be, well supported, blah blah blah. Then why is it so hard to understand even from its own side?

So science has never been right. Well since you are reading this on your computer, you are wrong. The computer was made by SCIENCE !!

Oh you are just trying to hold on to whatever you can, even if you have no point. The computer is a tool for science, it was not made solely by science.

Again, why does there need to be a purpose for us to be here???? The theory of evolution isn't about the philosophy of the mind. It's about facts. The theory of evolution is not meant to answer why we're here and what our purpose is.. Thats like saying 2+2=4 because the color of our sky is blue.

If there wasnt a purpose, we would not exist. It is that simple.

If things are too finely tuned for it to be just coincidence, please prove it or are you saying this is just your opinion??

I have made no bones about it being my opinion. It is my opinion. Has been my opinion ever since I just sat back and looked at the stars one starry night, and asked myself, why the hell are we here. We wouldnt be here, unless somebody, somthing, wanted us to be.



[edit on 11-9-2007 by West Coast]

Originally posted by West Coast
Im not buying it for the simple fact that what is known as the whales "hind limbs" today (which is the nail in the coffin for the evolution of th whale), is actually for mating purposes, meaning this is how the whale goes about procreating. It is not, what 'used to be' hind limbs...

Heh, that's a bit silly. So, you are criticising evolutionary theory for showing a fantastic transition between land mammals and whales, because whales now use the remnants of their pelvis for a copulatory purpose. So do land mammals (anchor genitalia muscles), but they also have other uses. Which whales and dolphins now don't, so they can be considered to have vestigial limbs (i.e. they show embryonic limb-buds and remnants of limbs).

www.edwardtbabinski.us...

Yeah, and because the forelimbs of bats are now used as wings that means bats could not have evolved from a four-legged mammal...

Evolution would predict this exact thing. That is, modification of an organ from previous uses. So, a limb in fish becomes a leg, a leg becomes a wing or a whale fin etc etc.

Discussing with creationists is like trying to pin jello to the wall. Your whole argument is one of incredulity when people answer your questions with evidence - 'there just has to be a purpose', 'I'm not buying that', 'I've viewed sources that were not satisfactory to me' 'evolution doesn't answer...why are we here' etc etc. Whilst spewing creationist canard after canard.

You were better off earlier in the thread when you asked whether evolution was part of god's plan. At least that didn't require denying swathes of evidence.

[edit on 11-9-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by West Coast
I think the evidence supports a 'God like figure' more so then the 'big bang, evolution theory'. Now you can ask "well whys that?" We are living beings that live in an extordinary world. Everything around us fits us so perfectly. The fruits and vegetables, meat, and poultry, trees, and grass, water which feeds EVERYTHING. Its as if someone designed it. Its to perfect. How did evolution 'get it right' without some sort of force pushing it into a certain direction? We cannot just evolve on our own and still be the beings we are today. Infact, we couldnt evovle period.

You know why you see so many thing fit together? Cause the things that don't die out. The process of evolution. If the temperature rose to like 200, everything can can survive that will, else they die out. And i'm sure 1000 years later there's going to be a animal that's going to say, 'wow this world is so perfect, everything fits'.

Originally posted by West Coast
Crocodiles! What about crocodiles? they are virtually the SAME as they were 225 million years ago. No evolutionary changes.

Do you know the size of those things back then? HUGE! The was alot more thicker then and this allowed them to grow so big. But not the air is more thin and less oxygen.

Originally posted by West Coast
And the proof is....well...you.

It is literally right under your nose.

so is the proof for a fat man flying in the skies.

Originally posted by West Coast
Again, no its not. Where is the proof? If there was proof, I wouldnt be here debating it. So obviously, it is not overwhelming enough. But it clearly has you fooled.

There's proof for gobal warming, yet people still debate about it. Why do you think there's difference races, each with difference looks and somehow they are in certain parts of the world. They also found remains of hobbits, different type of humans which died out.

Originally posted by West Coast
Because I just dont believe in it. The evidence is lacking. Is what I met, however, is, If you wanted to make that your excuse (God saw evolution through), it would have more ground to stand on then then current one.

The evidence for god is lacking, yet it doesn't stop people from believing.

Originally posted by West Coast
And yet you completely missed my point (intentionally) to take a cheap shot at religion. Was that reply even to you? Does Mr.fjf have two accounts? I suggest you go back, read what Mr.fjf wrote, then reread what I wrote to help you understand the purpose behind what I wrote. You sir, are trolling.

This is a forum... =.= That's the purpose of a forum.
Sorry if you can't handle being wrong

Originally posted by West Coast
If there wasnt a purpose, we would not exist. It is that simple.

o yes, very simple... i see now. Must be true coming from you...
There's a seatbelts for motorbikes... (Perhaps a bad example, meh )



[edit on 11-9-2007 by AncientVoid]

Here's something about the Ambulocetus fossil found..


Ambulocetus, Fraud?
Why do you guys deny God so uselessly???

[edit on 12-9-2007 by Clearskies]

[edit on 12-9-2007 by Clearskies]

[edit on 12-9-2007 by Clearskies]