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The argument over the existence of God

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posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by jfj123

Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms to exist?

Chance... The same way someone wins the lotto.


But, is there not a purpose to the lotto? Bad analogy.


or the universe to exist, it must be this way. Being this way, allows for but does not require the possibility of complex life forms.

that makes no sense.



Of course it doesn't but science does attempt to answer questions by using the scientific method and not by stories or religious dogma.


Forget religion for just a second. Because religion I do believe has been given a bad wrap. I think to a large degree, it has been poorely represnted. This is somthing, I feel you are just going to have to think for yourself on. How did we get here. Forget evolution for a second, and think the other way. What if somthing created us. This creator, gave us a purpose unique only to ourselves,to be alive in this vast universe. What is that purpose. Do you think the big bang along with evolution supporst that purpose? What created the 'bang' in order for it to happen? What created the mass of the big bang? How did it come about? What created that 'matter' inside of the 'big bang' from which we, as well as the milky way, orions belt, big dipper, small dipper, and billions of other galaxys came to exist from? Did this not, by evolutionary standards, give way to our existance?

Again, if you believe in evolution (which is lacking in the proof department) How or why do you feel that there wasnt something, maybe some supreme god, monitering and twitching our evolution pattern?



I don't think we have the answer for everything.


Wait a second Mr.jfj, what about science?!


provide evidence showing statistically that humans are wrong more then they are right.

Well Mr.jfj, why would I go about providing statistics, statistics which just so happens to be 'developed' by the same people I called wrong more then right?


You are a perfect example of the prototypical believer in evolution. Theres always answers, as long as you have statistics to back them up.

As I said earlier. Science, cannont provide all the answers my friend.

Watch CSPAN.
Watch the democratic and republican debates, I dont know, its common sense. I guess the "BS berometer" is built into a select few of us.


Billons of people in this world starve to death. While the rest of the world stands by and does nothing. This world we live in today is controlled by the corrupt power that is paper money. We humans worship paper money, it is what be base our common lives around. We have misplaced priorities as an advanced species on this earth. That is why, I happen to think we are wrong more then we are right. Our vision is skewed, we rape and pillage earth for its dwindleing natural resources, we go out of our way to exploit other human beings just for our own personal gain. Modern politics, modern economics, all apart of a cut throat buisiness that is controlled by greed and power. And yet, you question me, by asking for statistical data, that proves just how wrong we are versus how right we are?




Everyone should believe the Theory of Evolution as it is a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations.

Science, does NOT have the answers to everything, Mr.fjf.

It is not, and never has been 'right'. It has never been able to answer the common question, "what is our purpose". Evolution is theory, a theory that cannot answer even the most simplest, yet eluding questions out there, "why the hell are we here". Out of this vast universe, we are here, why? Things are to finely tuned for it to just be coincidence followed by the theory that is evolution.

If anything, your argument to me about evolution has as many holes as religion does to you.



[edit on 9-9-2007 by West Coast]

[edit on 9-9-2007 by West Coast]




posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by West Coast
But, is there not a purpose to the lotto? Bad analogy.


Why do you think there's a purpose to everything?


Originally posted by West Coast


Of course it doesn't but science does attempt to answer questions by using the scientific method and not by stories or religious dogma.


How did we get here. Forget evolution for a second, and think the other way. What if somthing created us. This creator, gave us a purpose unique only to ourselves,to be alive in this vast universe. What is that purpose. Do you think the big bang along with evolution supporst that purpose? What created the 'bang' in order for it to happen? What created the mass of the big bang? How did it come about? What created that 'matter' inside of the 'big bang' from which we, as well as the milky way, orions belt, big dipper, small dipper, and billions of other galaxys came to exist from? Did this not, by evolutionary standards, give way to our existance?


You know science is trying to figure this out and we don't pretend to know everything, unlike religion. If you can tell me how did god came about then i'll answer your questions.


Originally posted by West Coast
Again, if you believe in evolution (which is lacking in the proof department) How or why do you feel that there wasnt something, maybe some supreme god, monitering and twitching our evolution pattern?


lol you can talk, lacking proof? Are you talking about god here? No proof what so ever.

The proof of evolution is overwhelming. Not believing in evolution is like believing everything revolves around the Earth.

How can you even suggest there's a god behind evolution when you guys say there's no such thing as evolution? First it was 'there's no evolution' and it's starting to become 'so what if there is, god created it'. =.=...


Originally posted by West Coast


I don't think we have the answer for everything.


Wait a second Mr.jfj, what about science?!


Umm what are you talking about? We do not pretend to know everything, unlike religion.



Originally posted by West Coast
Science, cannont provide all the answers my friend.


Religion provides nothing...


Originally posted by West Coast
Billons of people in this world starve to death. While the rest of the world stands by and does nothing. This world we live in today is controlled by the corrupt power that is paper money. We humans worship paper money, it is what be base our common lives around. We have misplaced priorities as an advanced species on this earth. That is why, I happen to think we are wrong more then we are right. Our vision is skewed, we rape and pillage earth for its dwindleing natural resources, we go out of our way to exploit other human beings just for our own personal gain. Modern politics, modern economics, all apart of a cut throat buisiness that is controlled by greed and power. And yet, you question me, by asking for statistical data, that proves just how wrong we are versus how right we are?


Yet god does nothing. Hmm some great god there...


Originally posted by West Coast
It is not, and never has been 'right'. It has never been able to answer the common question, "what is our purpose". Evolution is theory, a theory that cannot answer even the most simplest, yet eluding questions out there, "why the hell are we here". Out of this vast universe, we are here, why? Things are to finely tuned for it to just be coincidence followed by the theory that is evolution.


'Why we are here?' is not a simple question and we do not know yet that's if there's a reason. Why don't you answer that question for us if it's so simple? Since i'm sure religion and your god is all so knowing...

God is not even a theory...

[edit on 9-9-2007 by AncientVoid]

[edit on 9-9-2007 by AncientVoid]



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by AncientVoid
 





You know science is trying to figure this out and we don't pretend to know everything, unlike religion. If you can tell me how did god came about then i'll answer your questions.


But I thought science already had facts about how the universe was created?
If the big bang does not have supported facts, then why is every Atheist rubbing it in?



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by AncientVoid
 





You know science is trying to figure this out and we don't pretend to know everything, unlike religion. If you can tell me how did god came about then i'll answer your questions.


But I thought science already had facts about how the universe was created?
If the big bang does not have supported facts, then why is every Atheist rubbing it in?


That was directed at why is the big bang there question and those other unsolved ones.
I never said it doesn't have supported facts, just that we don't pretend to know everything, especially without any facts or proof.

[edit on 9-9-2007 by AncientVoid]

[edit on 9-9-2007 by AncientVoid]



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 12:00 AM
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reply to post by AncientVoid
 


So how can you have a fully supported theory and still have unsolved questions? Or the fact that scientists have many different theories of how the universe was created? which one is the right one? Big bang? If it was the big bang, then why is the universe flat and not round? If a huge star became a nova shouldn't it scatter everywhere, meaning top and bottom?
Once science figures out all of those questions then you can say it is a fact, until then it is just a theory.



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
So how can you have a fully supported theory and still have unsolved questions?


You should seriouly ask religion that. There's not only unsolved questions, but statements which are proven wrong, yet people still believe in it and claim it as facts.

Btw, why not? 'For every action, there's a equal and opposite action' - Newtons law. This is a fact, yet we don't need to know where it came from. It just is.

[edit on 10-9-2007 by AncientVoid]



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by six
Thousand... You called westcoast narrow minded for not accepting science as the answers to all of his qustions...Can you not be just as narrow minded for not accepting God as the answers to the same questions? Just because it does not fit into your view does not make it narrow minded


So you're suggesting that just because I think 2 + 2 does not equal 57, I'm being narrow minded? Choosing to not accept an idea does not make one narrow minded. Not accepting an idea based on personal opinion, that's narrow minded. Not accepting an idea based on observation, research, and life experience...that's quite the opposite.



A question for my own knowledge to any athiest/agnostic... What proof, if any, would you need/accept as proof for the existance of God?


How about anything interventionist it did in the Old Testament? When was the last time a city was smote with fire?



Just as you accept science as "proof " there is no God...Those that believe in God accept that which exists as proof of God.


Fair enough. Though there once was a time I believed a fat man in a red suit was the cause of presents under a tree every year. Turned out that was just a story too.



Cannot God have designed evolution?


Sure it could have, but that's not what the book says. And if we didn't come from dust, then how much of the rest of the book can you believe? I'd think the whole Adam and Eve tale is kind of a cornerstone in the Bible, no?



As for the universe "just existed" before the big bang. What proof is there?
"It just did" isnt a valid argument in any scientific circle that I know of.


Well that's one of the few things science will probably never know, especially in the case of a big bang universe. Though if the big crunch is possible, one could reasonably extrapolate backwards in time to universes that existed before ours.



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 04:21 AM
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How many religions are there ? seriously... each of them having their own gods and their own story of how the universe was made... so which was is right ?



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 05:02 AM
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reply to post by a-stupid-dvd-case
 


You can ask same thing about science, which one is the right theory? I am dying to know the facts and evidence behind the big bang, can you guys answer those questions I had in my last post?



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
Once science figures out all of those questions then you can say it is a fact, until then it is just a theory.


Do you know what a scientific theory is?


The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

n science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behaviour are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity.



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
I am dying to know the facts and evidence behind the big bang, can you guys answer those questions I had in my last post?


Try here.

A good outline of the theory and the evidence.



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
You can ask same thing about science, which one is the right theory? I am dying to know the facts and evidence behind the big bang, can you guys answer those questions I had in my last post?


Yeh maybe to the theorys only. Try asking that to the facts. These theorys are at least based on the physic world and something we can test or get results from.



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
So how can you have a fully supported theory and still have unsolved questions?


because the questions hold no bearing over whether or not the theory is true... more how the phenomenon works



Or the fact that scientists have many different theories of how the universe was created?


can you give a ist of them



which one is the right one? Big bang? If it was the big bang, then why is the universe flat and not round? If a huge star became a nova shouldn't it scatter everywhere, meaning top and bottom?


the "big bang" wasn't some sort of nova of a huge star... hell, it wasn't even an explosion. the "bang" was really just an expansion... and "flat" is a relative term. the universe is "flat" in the same way a wheel of cheese is flat.



Once science figures out all of those questions then you can say it is a fact, until then it is just a theory.


you severely misunderstand how science works. we don't have all the questions answered in the field of genetics... but genetics are still factual. we don't completely understand cells... yet cell theory is 100% valid... we don't know how to cure viruses, but germ theory is still valid.



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 09:12 AM
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can you give a ist of them


I will provide a list of them here:

The Bouncing Universe, The Protouniverse, The Inflationary Theory, The Bubble Universe / Andre Linde's Self Creating Universe, The Hawking-Turok Instanton Theory. So if the big bang has the supported facts, then why have all the other people brought up these theories? Do they all have supporting evidence? So if the Big bang created this universe, and there was nothing previously to that, then how big was the nothing? Where did the heat come from that expanded the big bang?

Religion is based upon faith, as we look at previous cultures and nations, they all seemed to have religion. So how can people that have probably never met each other, all introduce religion? coincidence? Every nation has a different perception of God(s), and they each had a main prophet. So how can each nation determine what religion is in those time?








[edit on 10-9-2007 by Equinox99]



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 09:34 AM
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The big-bang explains what happens after planck time. That is all. It explains how the universe expanded over time. It says nowt about earlier than planck time.

So, other theories will be proposed. I'm sure most of them will still contain big-bang inflation.

There are some parallels to evolutionary theory. ToE explains the diversity of life, but not the formation of life itself. The big-bang explains how the universe got to where it is today from its very early periods, but not anything before that (i.e. the trigger, what came before etc).

And I think that is what the other theories do, certainly the Hawking-Turok solution. That is, they build on big bang cosmology.

web.uvic.ca...

Same for Guth's inflationary period:

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...

Same for Linde's theory:

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

They all contain an inflationary element, which is the big-bang. But they are just variants of it that go beyond the basic cosmology. That is, they attempt to explain more than basic BB theory.

You know, it's quite funny, as BB cosmology fits better with creation than many of these other theories. You should be fighting to stop scientists going beyond the basic cosmology. Otherwise, we'll likely end up with cyclic universes, multiverses etc etc which have even less of a gap for a supernatural cosmic lever puller.

I would have thought a lack of answers and uncertainty was just what god needs...

[edit on 10-9-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
Every nation has a different perception of God(s), and they each had a main prophet.


That's not true. The Buddhists have no god. The Native Americans have no main prophet. Those two groups make up a hefty amount of history's religious.



[edit on 10/9/2007 by Thousand]



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 04:56 PM
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reply to post by West Coast
 


Why is everything so finely tuned to support an advanced life form such as ourselves? What existed before us in order to make us 'exist' today, and then what created that?

Instead of insisting that Earth is the way it is because otherwise it would not support life, why not look at it the other way. Life occurs on Earth because of the different conditions the planet contains.


Proof? What is the meaning of life then?

Evolution does not attempt to answer the meaning of life question. It also does not attempt to disprove whether or not God exists. Science simply gathers information, examines it with an unbiased eye, and attempts to reach the most likely conclusion based on the evidence. A common problem among creationists and intelligent designists is that they lump the theory of evolution, the big bang theory, and abiogenesis into the same category. These topics are not mutually inclusive. If the Big Bang Theory was proved absolutely incorrect tomorrow, evolution would still be true.


The point is, dont be so narrow minded. Get off your high horse. Accept new ideas. We humans cannot explain everything. So some people have a hard time excepting this. It scares them that we dont know or have control of our own destiny, or what is happening around us.. It scares them that we are so utterly clueless as to where we fit in in the grand scheme of things, etc.

Exactly, don't be so narrow minded. Scientists are aware that humans come up with stories because they lack knowledge on a certain subject. That is why they attempt to explain unknown things using the observable facts they have available. For instance, in ancient greek times, it was believed that lightning came from angry gods. Obviously, thanks to science, we now know it is an atmospheric discharge of electricity.



More of your narrow mindedness! Do you see where im getting at with that? The proof is all around you. Just open up your eyes.

It is not narrow mindedness, it is science. The "proof" most religious people use as evidence of a high being is subject to interpretation. Love and kindness to a Christian is due to God's love. For an atheist, it might be due to nice people that were raised by good parents. For some it is helpful to think something is watching over them and that there is something after death. But it isn't proof. Science does not deny the existence of God, it simply ignores God all together. Attributing a phenomenon to a celestial being is just as useful as saying, "I don't know."



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by melatonin
 


So what you are saying is that it did not create the universe but just help expand it over time? So what did create the universe then?



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
So what you are saying is that it did not create the universe but just help expand it over time? So what did create the universe then?


It was not created. The Big bang describes an inflationary period of the universe, not how it came to be.



[edit on 10-9-2007 by DarkSide]



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by Equinox99
 


Nobody knows. Yet. But that does not mean that god is the default answer. The only answer is, we do not know. It may have always existed. Someday we will find out, but perhaps not any time soon.



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