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The argument over the existence of God

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posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 11:06 AM
In the days of the old testament, stories suggest that god would show his power by destroying cities, flooding the earth, and spreading plagues, he would order people to do stuff, some good, some bad.

In the new testament, the stories suggest that god decided to come to earth, he showed his power by walking on water, making a few fish, curing a few of the afflicted.

In the modern day, god shows his power by appearing on toast, biscuits, and inside fruit.

There's an inference to be made here, not sure quite what that is at the moment...

[edit on 9-9-2007 by melatonin]

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 11:20 AM
The whole pseudo-cannibalistic communion/sacrament thing has something to do with it. Not enough people are going to communion and eating their god, so now he's showing up on food.

that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 01:18 PM
reply to post by letsroll

well, the links seem to do nothing to prove the existence of god...
and your statement... well, that's not proving god, that's pushing one's self to believe.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 01:43 PM
westcoast wrote,

Well mr.madness, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but ask yourself this. If the universe had a beginning, who created it?

Why did someone have to create it?

Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms to exist?

Chance... The same way someone wins the lotto.
Also, for the universe to exist, it must be this way. Being this way, allows for but does not require the possibility of complex life forms.

Why do we humans have a moral sense?


Science, does not have the answers to everything my friend. And we humans are far from unfallible.

Of course it doesn't but science does attempt to answer questions by using the scientific method and not by stories or religious dogma.

We know more about outerspace then we do the depths of our own oceans. We know more about the moon then we do places in congo, as well as various other regions around the world. It goes on. Since when did human, come up with all the answers for everything? We are wrong more then we are right.

I don't think we have the answer for everything.
Please provide evidence showing statistically that humans are wrong more then they are right.

I personally, think that there is a god. Now, I could be wrong. But how are you so sure of your own theory? Do you ever stop and question it? How about "What if"?

Everyone should believe the Theory of Evolution as it is a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations.

I realize these questions were not directed toward me however, I felt it also necessary to respond.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 01:49 PM
Arguing over the existence of God is like arguing whether the number 0 has a value or is null. It doesn't really matter.

Usually the debate about God's existence comes down to the question "What's in it for me?"

My point is, if you don't believe in God, it wouldn't matter at all. If God exists, he would exist regardless of whether his existence was proven or not. If he is God, his existence would not be affected by our opinions of him since he is the parent in the "parent/child" relationship. If it was, by definition, he would not be God.

If you DO believe in God however, there may be some benefit. It may allow you to open yourself up to a new way of thinking about your relationship with the universe, which may affect your decision making. It MAY lead to better outcomes in life for you, or may not (God may sacrifice you to help a common good, or someone else.)

And no one really knows if God does not exist, so it's best to keep the idea a possibility. Just the fact that we can comprehend the idea means that it is possible. It is possible just by the fact that we can comprehend anything, actually.

Barring the requirement of living by moral values and rules dictated by men who say these rules came from God, what have you got to lose in actually keeping the idea that God may exist in the back of your mind? Nothing.

We don't know how we can reason and be self-aware. We just can. To me, that is a bigger mystery than how existence came about.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 02:06 PM
westcoast wrote,

And what is the evidence you speak of mr.madness? Monkeys morphing into man? If thats what you believe, then what made life so easy for such an animal to adapt. ?

First, monkeys did not morph into man. Monkeys and man do share a very early ancestor.
Second, adaptation doesn't happen when life is easy. Adaptation happens when life is difficult and change is required. The best mutations survive, the worst don't.

Just its is just coincidence? Or, did someone know what they were doing when they put us together?

Nope. Evolution put us together.

What happened, in order to create the universe that we live in?

The Big Bang.

We are an advanced race with all sorts of emotions. If evolution is your theory, then what created the very first life form, from which we eventually evolved from? How does life just come up from scratch?

To start,
Paleontologists have found fossils of microbes dating back at least 3.4 billion years. Chemical analysis of even older rocks suggests that photosynthetic organisms were already well established on Earth by 3.7 billion years ago.
Experiments now suggest that earlier forms of life could have been based on a third kind of molecule found in today's organisms: RNA.
In 1953, working at the University of Chicago, Stanley Miller and Harold Urey demonstrated that experiments could shed light on this question. They ran an electric current through a mix of ammonia, methane, and other gases believed at the time to have been present on early Earth. They found that they could produce amino acids and other important building blocks of life.
In addition, comets and meteorites may have delivered organic compounds from space.

The Universe, why is it here?

The Big Bang.

What is its purpose?

Why does it have to have a purpose?

There has to be a purpose.

No there doesn't.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 02:11 PM
reply to post by windwaker

your version of pascal's wager fails just as pascal's did.

you forget the thousands of other religions that have existed over the millennia. believing in no god is just as safe as believing in any god.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 02:14 PM

Man is not perfect. To me it seems that you are cherry picking your examples. There is a vast populous out there that doesnt have these problems, a healthy life style 'could' potentially curb some 'genetic diseases' as well. By making sure your body is getting what it needs, i feel you can change your body and advance it, and make it run much more efficient, if you really put in the extra time to make sure your living a healthy life style. A healthy frame of mind is also important.

I think the point that was being made is that why would God make genetic disorders?
Here's another example. If high cholesterol runs in your family, it may not matter how well you eat, you are genetically predisposed to high cholesterol. This is a fact without dispute. Some people have this problem so they must take drugs to lower the cholesterol levels.

Yes, eating healthy gives you the potential to be more healthy but does not guarantee it. I'm not saying you shouldn't try but it will not guarantee anything and eating healthy will not turn off an active genetic mutation.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 02:22 PM

since i was a small kid,i used to ponder the phenomenon of infinity as it relates to time and can something go on, and on,and on,without any the same sense,i would ponder how something could have no could something,anything,human or unhuman always have been here?i always came to the same conclusion.its impossible!no human can comprehend this phenomenon.therefore,there must be a supreme being who does comprehend this.thus,there has tobe a God,simple as that.

So because you can't understand something, that means god did it?

\vec[F] \cdot \Delta \vec[s] =
- \vec[\nabla] E_p \cdot \Delta \vec[s] =
- \Delta E_p \Rightarrow - \Delta E_p =
\Delta E_k \Rightarrow \Delta (E_k + E_p) = 0 \,\!l

Alot of people may not understand this. Does that mean god made it or that just because not everyone understands it doesn't mean some people do?

Mod Edit to break up mysterious equation stre-e-etching page

[edit on 9/9/07 by masqua]

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 02:34 PM
I believe the correct equation reads as such:

\vec[F] \cdot \Delta \vec[s] = - \vec[\nabla] E_p \cdot \Delta \vec[s] =
and then a miracle occurs - \Delta E_p \Rightarrow - \Delta E_p = \Delta E_k \Rightarrow \Delta (E_k + E_p) = 0 \,\!l

The supernatural is not the default position. The true default position when we don't have an answer is, "We do not know yet, but we will someday as scientific knowledge advances."

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 02:39 PM
reply to post by windwaker

question you put forth----whats in it for me? near as i can figure out from what i 've read is that G-D wants to reproduce---make G-Ds out of the human mold---but not a bunch of little hitlers.the G-D family has set down some qualifying rules for entering that family--that being keeping the laws of G-D and having self control---the last thing They want or need is a bunch of yahoos in the family that have the power to go around wrecking the universe.why did They make the different creatures of the past ages?----for Their pleasure---They are Creators and enjoy making life and living creatures.when you have eternity on your hands you need something to do or you'd be bored i said in another post we believe in that which we cannot see.the atoms that make up our bodies and the universe are invisible by themseves to our eyes and instruments----the closest scientists can get to trying to see an atom is seeing the shadow of a blurr.apparently all matter is made up from the pure energy of what is called the spirit of G-D which sustains us and the laws of the universe.if we dont want to become members of the G-D family They are not going to force us-if we chose death for ourselves instead that is possible while we are human----once you get to become a G-D you cant die would be cruel to make someone live forever if they were filled with lawlessness,hate and rebellion.i am looking forward to the day when i am allowed to start making living about you guys?there must be lots of things youd like to do as a G-D but you dont have the power now.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 02:44 PM

I think that Creationism and Evolution are both completely wrong! Fact is that none of us knows why were here at all. If it makes you go through life easier by think that you know the truth of why there is existence on this earth than so be it but truth is you don't know fully at all.

How can you even consider to comprehend something so vast as our universe and how it came to exist with life? If the universe was once the size of the smallest part of an atom and now it's ever expanding matter in all directions and we are supposed to think that we know why? LoL, I don't think so. We can argue over who's ridiculous idea is better but you all know deep down inside that you really have no damn idea. Excuses and man made written material on both sides is all we have. Everything we use in science was made by man, the bible was made by man. Why should anything made by man on either side explain the existence of the universe/life at all?

Well keep in mind there is substantial evidence to support Evolution and none to support creationism.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 03:04 PM
So if science does not know how something works, they throw out a theory and say it is true. Tell me something, how many theories of the universe are there?
Big Bang, The Bouncing Universe, The Protouniverse, The Inflationary Theory, and I can keep naming some. Does that mean they are right? Science is debating about which theory is the right one, so if they are debating for theories, how do you know it's a fact that the universe started with a big bang?

The Big Bang theory, which claims the universe began 15 billion years ago when a single point of unimaginable heat and density spontaneously exploded, is a scientific tale so well-known in popular culture that most people accept it as a fact.

However, while the Big Bang theory explains many mechanisms of the universe, it leaves plenty of questions unanswered.

What caused the Big Bang? Why is the universe flat rather than curved, as predicted by the theory of relativity? Why is matter clumped into galaxies but more uniform at larger scales? How did the laws of the universe come into being?
Stanford]lin k

Can you guys answer those questions? Because if you can't, that is like you guys asking us to prove if God exists.

Then they go one to talk about the The Self-Reproducing Inflationary Universe, well what started out the first universe? If science can not answer these questions, then how do you have "facts"?

Mod edit - shortened link

[edit on 9/9/07 by masqua]

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 03:09 PM
that's not how science works.

Science, when looking for an answer, posits a hypothesis.

The hypothesis is then tested rigorously, often by many different scientists over a period of time.

If the hypothesis holds true, after being tested multiple times by multiple scientists, it becomes a theory, which does not mean an educated guess -- that's what the hypothesis is.

It remains a theory, because unlike religion, which is stuck in a rut and does not change its ideas, science is always open to new interpretations of the data, new outcomes of experiments, and change. That is why science is the appropriate lens with which to view the world. As our understanding of the world advances, science advances on the changes. It is not static, it is fluid.

People who want to deride science first need to understand the scientific method. The problem then becomes, of course, that most of those who understand scientific method and what it actually does then relegate the god concept to the back burner, or take it off the stove entirely.

This is why religion doesn't like science. Science frees us from ancient dogma and actually allows our species to grow up, instead of holding us back in our superstitious childhood, forever looking to Sky Santa to give us eternal reward or eternal coal in our stockings.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 03:14 PM
reply to post by jfj123

without revealed knowledge being given to us thru moses and the prophets from G-D we would know nothing of why we are alive and our existence would be meaningless and useless until we had a purpose a goal revealed to strive towards.G-D is not so cruel that They would give us the ability to comprehend Their creation from beginning to end and then deny us to have a part in it.what parent that loves their children would deny them to share in the parents wealth and everything they have?what was revealed to the prophets and moses has suffered a lot of abuse thanks to being mishandled by some of the scribes and translators that couldnt resist the urge to make little changes because they just couldnt believe what they were reading while they were making copies---thankfully the changes they made they also copied in their side notes----it is possible to undo the damage that these do gooders did because of their notes----it just makes for more studying for us.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 03:17 PM
One man's "revealed knowledge" is another man's rantings of a lunatic who has spent too much time in the desert sun.

If "god" is so loving, why all the horrors in Leviticus? Or Deuteronomy? Why did that Jesus fellow invent the idea of eternal hellfire? What kind of loving parent says, I love you only if you do as I say, but if you don't I'm going to stick you on the barbeque for all eternity and let you suffer?

Either god is not real, he's insane, or he's a sadist. I choose what's behind Curtain Number One.

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 03:42 PM
Evolution is not meant to proof that God does or does not exist, it was designed to leave God to be a figment of one's imagination.

As for me, I have had enough prayers answered to know that my Father in Heaven is alive. Not much more proof needed than praying for a dead colleague and have him walk around three hours later....

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 03:58 PM
reply to post by MajorMalfunction

I beg to differ I like science, and I am religious. But can I ask how science tested the big bang? did they make one? Or they just observed life and called that a fact, or did they look at other universes being created in this same process?

posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 04:02 PM
reply to post by MajorMalfunction

Well, after you do so much to a parent they always have a point when they say that is enough. God has his way. Is hell forever? no, it is not. We make mistakes, we are not perfect so why would God throw us in fire for ever?
He won't, it is basically punishment until you truly repent, and accept Jesus as your savior, if you do not then you get a second death and cease to exist.


posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 05:21 PM
Thousand... You called westcoast narrow minded for not accepting science as the answers to all of his qustions...Can you not be just as narrow minded for not accepting God as the answers to the same questions? Just because it does not fit into your view does not make it narrow minded

A question for my own knowledge to any athiest/agnostic... What proof, if any, would you need/accept as proof for the existance of God?

Just as you accept science as "proof " there is no God...Those that believe in God accept that which exists as proof of God.

Cannot God have designed evolution?

As for the universe "just existed" before the big bang. What proof is there?
"It just did" isnt a valid argument in any scientific circle that I know of.

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