The argument over the existence of God

Originally posted by West Coast

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
science says nothing on god. god does not factor into any scientific theories. that's how it works. science leaves no place for god in its thinking

If that is true, then why do 4 in every 10 scientist believe in a 'God'?
Science cannot provide all the answers Mr.madness.

argument from authority doesn't work when at all... especially when authority rests on my side...

and where are you getting your statistics from?

and again, i said that SCIENCE leaves no place for god.... personal beliefs are put aside in science. i'm saying that science is AGNOSTIC towards god.

Evolution does not explain how we got here, how the universe came from nothingness, etc.

evolution has nothing to do with the universe beginning...

and not a single big bang explanation involves the universe coming from NOTHING.

At the same time, creationism does not explain how God became God. For instance, who made God? Did he come from nothingness?

and creationism doesn't really do anything to explain that god exists... which is kind of the corner stone of their hypothesis.

Alot of questions, with not many answers im afraid.

with 0 answers, and just as much reason.

I myself, tend to lean more towards the creationist side. I base this belief off of the human body. The human body is just to complicated, as is all life on earth.

no, you're making an ASSUMPTION that it is too complex when, in fact, we can prove that the mechanisms of evolution have created this complexity over hundreds of millions of years.... a timespan impossible to truly fathom.

It seems to me, that something (God) knew what they were doing.

yet all lifeforms are horribly flawed.
take me or any other human male for example, we have ticking timebombs in our bodies, they're called prostates. if a male lives long enough he will get prostate cancer.
vestiges also point away from someone designing things.
i

Ask yourself this, does evolution, and creationism go hand in hand. Was evolution all a part of Gods plan?


logical fallacy of special pleading.
1)god created humans and all other life...
2)but science shows that evolution is the mechanism through which life developed and increased in complexity
3)god created humans and life through evolution...

now let's apply occam's razor here..
we end up cutting out 1 and 3, as they add nothing to our explanation.

evolution and creationism don't go hand in hand, one is science and the other is superstitious nonsense.

jimjamjerry wrote,

evolution is just a theory

I'm not sure if you know the definition of a scientific theory so let me repost it.

In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It's a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations. It ties together all the facts about something, providing an explanation that fits all the observations and can be used to make predictions. In science, theory is the ultimate goal, the explanation. It's as close to proven as anything in science can be.

Yes, there is a god. and what if I was to ask you in a poll if you believe in GOD? I am sure 90% of you guys would say you belive in god right?


So based on my research and this poll, I could say that god exists..That is if you belive in polls..and some polls are very true to reality and need no proof. I've learned that over the years, when people have a strong belief on something, it's usually true or has some basis for being true.

Originally posted by jimjamjerry
scuse my ignorance but, how do you tell when a gene is "ex-functional"

It no longer does the job its related gene does, that is, it produces no comparable protein due to genetic disablement. The gene may do some other function (regulatory etc), but it no longer functions as a hydroxylase gene.

We also have a functional hydroxylase-21 gene. Thus, losing this function had no great effect, in this case we have a redundant pseudogene. Most likely due to the gene being copied (i.e. gene duplication). If we lose the function of the remaining gene, then bad things happen (adrenal hyperplasia in the case of hydroxylase).

However, there are other genes that have become broken that do affect the organism. Thus, the vitamin C gene is broken the same way across apes but also show phylogeny (i.e. closer between more related species), and so we need to supplement our diet to gain this vitamin. As in this instance, we have no gene that carries out the same original process.

which would be that.... there's no possibility of this mutation occurring independently? Make the gene became ex-functional become of some kind of environmental change that impacted both simultaneously. Is that possible?

The essential randomness of mutations makes this very unlikely. Add numerous similar occurances, and we are in the realms of fantasy.

Same with the endogenous retroviri. Viri occassionally insert their genes into the germline cells. This is a very rare and fairly random occurance. To find ERVs showing the same phylogenetic relationships as all the other genetic indicators and homologies suggests we can be very sure we have ancestory.

As I said, there is more as well (transposons etc). But I think the ERVs and pseudogenes, along with chromosome 2, are sufficient without even bothering with the fossils.

So, be nice to other apes. They appear to be our long-lost cousins

[edit on 4-9-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by jedimiller
Yes, there is a god. and what if I was to ask you in a poll if you believe in GOD? I am sure 90% of you guys would say you belive in god right?


So based on my research and this poll, I could say that god exists..That is if you belive in polls..and some polls are very true to reality and need no proof. I've learned that over the years, when people have a strong belief on something, it's usually true or has some basis for being true.

lol i'll let someone else have fun with this, i'll comment on it tomorrow if it's not already done...

So wait let me get this straight, where did the "white" whole come out from?
Last I heard, nothing had nothing in it, so where did the material for the white whole form out of?

You claim evolution, well show me the missing link, if you do not have it then
why shouldn't I go with the Sumerian text that shows we came from ETs?

There was no time before the big bang, so how come all of a sudden time
became invented and well maintained by us humans?

Big Bang is a big nonsense, it's only explanation the smartest heads on this
planet came up with. The truth is it is not a good theory, it still does not explain where the materials came from when there was nothing.
All it says was "big star big bang! We are here now! end of discussion."
And to be honest that just does not cut it for me, maybe for the rest of you.

Originally posted by Equinox99
You claim evolution, well show me the missing link, if you do not have it then
why shouldn't I go with the Sumerian text that shows we came from ETs?

You can go with what you like. Producing real evidence is more difficult. Thus, lets say that evolution as a whole is true, but that some ETs decided to come to the earth to fiddle with the genetics of some early ape.

How would we know? All the evidence shows phylogeny. How would we know that some ET or other phantom event (e.g., sky-fairy) altered genomes? Everything we see thus far is readily explained by simple biological processes, why add a extra stuff for fun?

Essentially, it is just an unfalsifiable and untestable proposition. You can believe it if you like, but unless we find "produced by AGME" (Alien Genome Manipulative Engineering" written in the genome, or we find other evidence of such things, it's just an assertion.

I don't see why you are asking for a 'missing link'. What missing link? We have evidence of homonid evolution over 5 million years. We are always looking for more info of course. Whenever we find another fossil, we open up two more gaps for a link.

The truth is it is not a good theory, it still does not explain where the materials came from when there was nothing.
All it says was "big star big bang! We are here now! end of discussion."

It was never meant to explain everything. It is a theory that explains the development of the universe we see around us from the very early stages of the universe.

That is all. It has never been the end of discussion. Very clever people are working their brains to the limits to find good testable hypothesis beyond the big-bang. As I said, it is very likely the big-bang is just a part of some bigger theory.

Only hard work and good science will find these answers.



[edit on 4-9-2007 by melatonin]

This thread is a stalemate just like every other atheist vs Christian thread,
so I am not going to post on here again. Good luck!

Originally posted by AncientVoid
Look around you. Why do you think there's difference races of humans? Why they look different to each other. This is the process of work over millions of years.

Well we dont know it was millions, plus the majority of the early humans were wiped out and the humans of today come from a tiny percentile of the humans which existed prior to the most recent Ice Age.

So for all we know, there couldve been more types of humans. More "Races" as many call it. Even though they arent races.

We all come from a common ancestor earliest tracable to East Africa, but more recent findings can trace most of the world's people to a group of people that migrated to the Iranian/Afghani area of Central Asia from the Mid-East and before that from Africa, then split into all directions.

www3.nationalgeographic.com...


Also, why is it that the Big Bang created "Time"? Thats awfully silly considering Time as we know it is merely a measurement created by Man and Man did not exist when the Big Bang supposedly occurred.

To say that existence, the nothingness, or the pre-big bang Universe is simply comparable to a DVD which is not playing, and therefore is not measurable in its duration because its simply non existent while not playing, is wrapping things up into a package that your brain can understand and agree with. But that doesnt mean it is correct.

Any man who would stake his life on the claim would be a fool. Simply put we do not have 100% evidence to call this a fact yet, and who wants to bet their life on a theory?

But I would stake my life on the existence of a God because if there wasn't, I wouldn't want to be a part of the cruel World anymore anyway. And we only live 100 years maximum, usually much less.. and then thats it? Nothing afterward, just you die and become non existent in any way. If thats how it really is (ie no God) then whats the point of even living? Such a short time, I personally look forward to after the death of the flesh, and see this phyiscal existence as something very temporary and even .. something that can be sacrificed to become a martyr or to prove one's faith in a live or die situation.

But to be honest its more of a feeling than anything. This feeling that something else is at work and you just can't figure it out. As if it is hidden from me due to the fact that I am a Human that is alive in the physical, and theres no way to ever prove that this .. 'something else' exists. But I will still believe.


[edit on 9/4/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by Equinox99
This thread is a stalemate just like every other atheist vs Christian thread,
so I am not going to post on here again. Good luck!

actually, it's only going to be a stalemate because the religious refuse to acknowledge that the non-theistic side has logic on its side.

A sidepoint. I have read of a posthumus mathematician who went insane studying for years the concept of infinity. General North queried by a reporter if we had alien technology reverse engineered was quoted to say 'if we could do the math'. Quaantum physics weirded Einstein out. Made the hackles on his neck stand up. Give it about another thousand yrs but unfortunately we will allow the GW's, the Ahminuttys, the Chavezinsanus, the Blainnonuttius's rule our cumulative futures. Which is bleak. They'll find our landfills a millenium from now and wonder just how fast we could run like tyrannosaurus. I truly wish I could be more optomistic but when the film runs in my head of Iraqis dogchained and led about with german sheperds nipping at their heels I just want to turn in my passport to humanity.

Thousand, with all due respect of a fellow member of this fine establishment, please get your facts right with regard to Einstein's belief of a higher power. Ok linky doesn't open. Edited. Type engine 'Einstein belief of God'.

[edit on 4-9-2007 by jpm1602]

Originally posted by jpm1602
Thousand, with all due respect of a fellow member of this fine establishment, please get your facts right with regard to Einstein's belief of a higher power. Ok linky doesn't open. Edited. Type engine 'Einstein belief of God'.

[edit on 4-9-2007 by jpm1602]

thousand is correct in his assertion that einstein was an agnostic (though i'd say atheist, because agnostic is atheist writ polite)

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

-einstein

direct quote in a letter that he wrote to an atheist.

Yes, there is a god. and what if I was to ask you in a poll if you believe in GOD? I am sure 90% of you guys would say you belive in god right?

So based on my research and this poll, I could say that god exists..That is if you belive in polls..and some polls are very true to reality and need no proof. I've learned that over the years, when people have a strong belief on something, it's usually true or has some basis for being true.

To play devils advocate, just because alot of people believe in something doesn't make it true or right. For example, alot of people believe in hitler and his policies. Doesn't make them right.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Well mr.madness, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but ask yourself this. If the universe had a beginning, who created it? Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms to exist? Why do we humans have a moral sense? What happens after we die? Science, does not have the answers to everything my friend. And we humans are far from unfallible. We know more about outerspace then we do the depths of our own oceans. We know more about the moon then we do places in congo, as well as various other regions around the world. It goes on. Since when did human, come up with all the answers for everything? We are wrong more then we are right.

I personally, think that there is a god. Now, I could be wrong. But how are you so sure of your own theory? Do you ever stop and question it? How about "What if"?

i just don't understand why some people feel that evolution and creationism can't co-exist. who ever said it's not possible for god to create a single celled organism with its genetic code programmed to evolve. and wouldn't evolution be a strong argument for God because it shows that God is a powerful engineer able to create lifeforms that evolve on their own? The definition of 'God' could be whatever someone believes in, whether God is a powerful conscious being, or if 'God' is the entire universe. Either way, evolution and creationism are not mutually exclusive things.

Originally posted by curiousbeliever
i just don't understand why some people feel that evolution and creationism can't co-exist.

Because christians said there's no evoultion and we were made the way we were... Adam and Eve... but doesn't explain how there's different coloured skin and races today.

Originally posted by jedimiller
Yes, there is a god. and what if I was to ask you in a poll if you believe in GOD? I am sure 90% of you guys would say you belive in god right?

So based on my research and this poll, I could say that god exists..That is if you belive in polls..and some polls are very true to reality and need no proof. I've learned that over the years, when people have a strong belief on something, it's usually true or has some basis for being true.

Look at what happened to the flat Earth and geocentric concept. Around 100% of christians didn't only believe it, but knew it was a fact cause they had 'god' on their side and we were an 'image of god'... Killed anyone who dare go against them....

90%? Did you make that up? And have you heard of brainwash?

[edit on 5-9-2007 by AncientVoid]

If the universe had a beginning, who created it?

The universe did not have a beginning. Remember, as far as we know ex nihilo is impossible.

Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms to exist?

If they weren't we wouldn't be here to ask this question in the first place, so that's no argument. Of all the universes possible it just happened to be this one.

Why do we humans have a moral sense?

Some species of monkeys and all apes have a moral sense.

What happens after we die?

Nothing. Why, do you expect something to happen? Do you think humans are special enough to deserve to live on??

But how are you so sure of your own theory? Do you ever stop and question it? How about "What if"?

What's the point? In over 2 000 years since man came up with the god meme there has not been one single piece of evidence that shows that there is a god. Not one single observation. When you observe the world it's clear that there's no supernatural force at work, since most of things can be explained by natural laws.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by DarkSide]

Originally posted by DarkSide
The universe did not have a beginning. Remember, as far as we know ex nihilo is impossible.

And your proof for this is? And then theres always that "what if" question.

If they weren't we wouldn't be here to ask this question in the first place, so that's no argument. Of all the universes possible it just happened to be this one.

Again this doesnt answer my question. You side stepped my question. Why is everything so finely tuned to support an advanced life form such as ourselves? What existed before us in order to make us 'exist' today, and then what created that?

Some species of monkeys and all apes have a moral sense.

LOL. Well Mr.Darkside, not in the sense in which humans do. And exactly how is that measured? How did they come to such a conclusion? Can they be 100% sure that monkeys are on the same moral highground as we humans? I would love to see such steadys for validation.

Nothing. Why, do you expect something to happen?

Do you think humans are special enough to deserve to live on??

Proof? What is the meaning of life then?

What's the point?

The point is, dont be so narrow minded. Get off your high horse. Accept new ideas. We humans cannot explain everything. So some people have a hard time excepting this. It scares them that we dont know or have control of our own destiny, or what is happening around us.. It scares them that we are so utterly clueless as to where we fit in in the grand scheme of things, etc.

In over 2 000 years since man came up with the god meme there has not been one single piece of evidence that shows that there is a god.

More of your narrow mindedness! Do you see where im getting at with that? The proof is all around you. Just open up your eyes.
[edit on 5-9-2007 by West Coast]

[edit on 5-9-2007 by West Coast]

reply to post by West Coast


you asked what the meaning of life was...
here's the honest truth: it NEEDS NO MEANING.