Hoagland Exposed! ‘Vegetation On Mars’ Explanation A Joke!!

Has Hoagland gone overboard? He seems to interpret everything he sees on the surface of Mars as either alien artifacts or forests and vegetation. Granted, there are anomalies up there that are as mysterious as they come. There could even be moss/lichen in some of those crevasses.

But he’s really shot his foot this time! Here’s a pic of what he stresses is proof of forests on Mars! If he’s blatantly misinterpreting this image, how reliable is he? His credibility has sure taken a beating this time!


Pic taken from Hoagland's 'Enterprise Mission'

So what he contends is that the pic above clearly shows forests on the surface of Mars.
But what’s the fact? Check out the images with progressive resolution (below) and you’ll see what I mean.




South Polar Region PSP_003443_0980
Credit: NASA/JPL/University of Arizona

Do they look like trees or just cracks/fissures on the surface of Mars? But Hoagy insists they’re trees/vegetation! Now he’ll probably change his mind….or will he put another spin on it?

Thanks to jdub too!

Cheers!

The original images are here…

www.msss.com...
hirise.lpl.arizona.edu...

Ref:
www.enterprisemission.com...

It never ceases to amaze me that people with absolutely no knowledge of conditions on alien planets come to the most amazing conclusions based on Earth evidence.

You cant use earth based criteria/evidence to assume things about alien planets/moons

Corals....so... animals or geological formations!?






*corraline algae:


source

* coral stone:


source

Batostomella gracilis with the short angle between branches and small apertures typical of the species, producing a smooth, tree-like look.

source



[edit on 30-8-2007 by blue bird]

Good pics blue bird! Now if you tell Hoagland that these pics are from Mars, he's sure to put a spin on them and try and convince all with his warped logic that they are plants and animal crap!

Cheers!

Originally posted by Chorlton

You cant use earth based criteria/evidence to assume things about alien planets/moons

Interesting post Chorlton. But I don't think what you posted is what you meant. I think you meant to say that you can't use earth based criteria to prove and/or hypothesize things about alien planets/moons.

In fact, you can assume anything you want. For instance I assume that the atmosphere/temperature/pressue on Mars is identical to earth. And the reason I assume that it is is because of its relative size and the fact that there are no reasons why its shouldn't be identical to earth other than the disinformation about Mars that is continually published by those with a different agenda.

Hey and welcome back!

In fact, you can assume anything you want. For instance I assume that the atmosphere/temperature/pressue on Mars is identical to earth.

Although its gravity is obviously different than earths because it isnt on the same line of orbit, meaning the gravity it exerts on the sun is different.

This means that its personal gravity would be different, meaning that an atmosphere would be denser, or lighter.

If it was denser, it would be filled with gases poisonous to Earth Life.

If it was lighter, gases such as Oxygen would leave the planet, and no life could live there.

Planets are each incredibly different, and humans have to be in very specific conditions.

A small amount of Chlorine gas makes a humans insides melt, this is how specific we are built.

There's another explanation as well, although not as exciting as alien life unfortunately.





teslamania.delete.org...

Wow! Amazing stuff!

I especially liked this Lichtenberg specimen...


Courtesy Stoneridge Engineering

Now probably some of what we're seeing in Mars is akin to this process?

Cheers!

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus

Although its gravity is obviously different than earths because it isnt on the same line of orbit, meaning the gravity it exerts on the sun is different.

Thanks for the post Octavius Maximum. Could you please elaborate on your statement "because it isn't on the same line of orbit". I am assuming you mean orbital plane. If that is correct how does the gravity it exerts on the Sun affect its atmosphere?

Also can you tell me what your source is for the statement "it's gravity is obviously different from earth's?"

I am not sure that we understand what gravity actually is but Lazar says there are 2 types, gravity A which works on an atomic scale and gravity B which is the gravity that we are talking about.

This means that its personal gravity would be different, meaning that an atmosphere would be denser, or lighter.

If it was denser, it would be filled with gases poisonous to Earth Life?

How do you arrive at the conclusion that a dense atmopshere would be filled with gases poisonous to earth life. Specifically what gases?

If it was lighter, gases such as Oxygen would leave the planet, and no life could live there.

I think we can both agree that there is an atmosphere on Mars. The debate is how much? I would imagine that the atmosphere on Mars is breathable and I only say that because I believe there are about 600 million people living on Mars.

Planets are each incredibly different,

I disagree. Other than size they are all the same. They all have (at least in this solar system) human life as we know it, grass, trees, cities and animals.

Thanks for the post OM and I look forward to your answers.

Could you please elaborate on your statement "because it isn't on the same line of orbit". I am assuming you mean orbital plane. If that is correct how does the gravity it exerts on the Sun affect its atmosphere?

I doesnt affect its atmosphere, but it does affect the capacity for life. Especially when you are talking about planets such as venus, its atmosphere makes it hotter than mercury, the closest planet to the sun.

Nothing could survive such heat.

\
Also can you tell me what your source is for the statement "it's gravity is obviously different from earth's?"

Well if its gravity was the same as earths, then both planets would be exactly the same distance away from the sun as each other.

I am not sure that we understand what gravity actually is but Lazar says there are 2 types, gravity A which works on an atomic scale and gravity B which is the gravity that we are talking about.

who knows, gravity is a very large topic.

How do you arrive at the conclusion that a dense atmopshere would be filled with gases poisonous to earth life. Specifically what gases?

Sorry, i said the wrong thing.

Im saying a planet with a stronger gravity would keep more gases within its atmosphere (if it has one) because more types of gases would be unable to escape.

A weaker gravity means oxygen would leave the planets galaxy too easily.

I think we can both agree that there is an atmosphere on Mars. The debate is how much? I would imagine that the atmosphere on Mars is breathable and I only say that because I believe there are about 600 million people living on Mars.

Mars' atmosphere is weak, it contains some basic elements, but the ones vital to human life are in the minority.

So, you believe there is life on mars. Did you come to the conclusion that there were people on mars first? or that there was a breathable atmosphere first?

I disagree. Other than size they are all the same. They all have (at least in this solar system) human life as we know it, grass, trees, cities and animals.

Its difficult for a planet to have grass, trees, cities if it is made of gas (Jupiter, Neptune)

Planets are all massively different. Time, light, gravity, density, they are all wildly different from each other. This means any culture that evolved there would be radically different from our own.

So, what makes you think that other planets have cultures.

More importantly, why keep it secret? Its not like we can profit from it.

reply to post by johnlear



I am obliged to the honourable gentleman for correcting my mistake and hope he takes the opportunity to check his post for similar whoopsies

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus

So, what makes you think that other planets have cultures.

More importantly, why keep it secret? Its not like we can profit from it.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions OM. I would conservatively estimate that the depth of your scientific knowledge exceeds mine by a factor of at least 10! Thanks again.

Actually...im no historian, not a scientist. I have a good imagination, though. You just need to visualise the universe.

What REALLY helps is a book called "The science of Discworld"

This is one of the most intelligent and rational book ive ever read, while still being incredibly entertaining.

Look into it, if you wish, it looks at the universe in terms that anyone can understand, even mine

But still, i would like to know why you believe life exists, why people would keep it secret, and which came first. The belief in life bearing planets, or life ON planets?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Actually...im no historian, not a scientist. I have a good imagination, though. You just need to visualise the universe.

What REALLY helps is a book called "The science of Discworld"

This is one of the most intelligent and rational book ive ever read, while still being incredibly entertaining.

Look into it, if you wish, it looks at the universe in terms that anyone can understand, even mine

But still, i would like to know why you believe life exists, why people would keep it secret, and which came first. The belief in life bearing planets, or life ON planets?

Hi OM,

Erm...you might want to google "John Lear" to pick up a little background ambience and go to the link below to read some threads, happy reading.



www.abovetopsecret.com...

Erm...you might want to google "John Lear" to pick up a little background ambience and go to the link below to read some threads, happy reading.

No, i wont.

He wants to give his opinion and debate? Fine.

but i will not debate anyone who wants to use prestige and celebrity as a weapon.

I never look at who i am talking too or how many posts they have made or whatever, that means nothing too me.

the debate is here, it is now, and i am waiting for an answer.

*whistles into the void*

Oh john Lear! I await your response and your beliefs.

If you truly believe that other people live on the planets and moons of Sol then i think you should explain your reasoning.

Should i take this as a sign that you have no reasoning?

Your arguement seems poor, probably because you dont actually make it.

Well, I liked the OP.

Things have degenerated a bit since then.

Oh, well.

It was interesting while it lasted.

I will take a swing at answering you OM

What we think we know are more of guesses and broad interpretations of limited information.

How can we understand other planets, when, we barely understand the one we plant our feet on everyday?

Tell, me, in all of your life, have you ever saw the core of the earth? Have you known any instrumentation that has gone to the core?

Now, tell me, how do you or anyone else know what the core is.

Now tell me, if we can't know the facts of our own planet, how do we know the others?

How are we certain that the 'gas planets' are really all gas?

how are we so certain that venus is so hot? we did have rovers land there and take pictures. If it was so hot, how did they manage to safely land and take pictures?

We discover new life in places we thought they couldn't exist, in forms we couldn't fathom, in the current times, on this planet ... if we are wrong about what life needs and can be here ... how can we be so sure about what life needs elsewhere.

How can we be sure we would SEE life ... what if they reflect in a different wavelength beyond our scope of vision? Yes, cameras ... but, if they are hiding it ... they wouldn't show those pictures.

Why would they hide it? How many people would freak out if they found out there was other civilizations out there, or other life forms that are not understood? How many people would question why we were told this couldn't exist for so long? How many people would try to drop everything to live a different life somewhere else, just for the experience and sights?

You say you have a great imagination ... well, then don't let the false rules you were taught limit that ability to see things beyond the boundaries you have learned.

Remember, a lot of science is theories and repeatable results. Just because one set of results are the same, doesn't mean it is the only possible result.

Again, life doesn't necessarily need oxygen either. We do. Technically, our plants do to, since, oxygen is a component of CO2. BUT, to assume all life in all existence would need the element oxygen ... would be quite arrogant and assuming. The fact is, to some creatures, oxygen could be like bleach is to us.

Now think about that ... oxidation destroys metals, right? Well, what if some life was metallic based? Far-fetched you say? Not really, we have metallic elements in us, in fact, we require some to be healthy. So what if some organism were actually reversed, to where they were mainly metallic vs our organic nature? When you realize everything is just a grouping of various elements, then, you realize ANYTHING is possible.

The distance from the sun does not affect the planet's gravity to its residents. The mass of the planet or moon does ... yes, other bodies can also have an effect, but, to what extent? Do you feel lighter on the days/nights the moon is directly above you vs the days/nights the moon is directly below you? No? Then it shows you how little a large body can affect your planet's individual gravity on its inhabited objects.

I cannot support the claims of Mr. Lear. I cannot deny the claims of Mr. Lear. Neither can most of you, unless you have actually been to the moons and planets ... or ... you have a telescope that can give you details that are in the meters to inches range ... if so ... and you are here ... why aren't you posting pictures from that telescope!!!

They do sell close to 30" telescopes ... they may cost as much as a sub-compact car ... but if you have the money, go for it ... prove or disprove it all ... I bet you could make the investment back and some.


Is it possible that the assumptions of veteran scientists are wrong? Yes. Is it possible some are compliant or part of a decption? Of course. I am not saying any of it is true, but I can't be sure it isn't.

I do know that they claim crappy photos as being the best the have, but then years later release better photos from the same time. I guess public funded photos are classified? I hope I never have to wait years or decades to get back pictures of the mountains on a vacation

As far as I am concerned, there very well could be life on Venus ... them knowing about it would be a great reason why we don't study it too much, though it is our 'sister' planet. Maybe the culture is underground on Mars, makes it easier to deny life, if that is the purpose. I don't deny the fact there could be life on all the planets. Do I think they are humans or humanoids? Possibly, but, I would think they might be different as well. I am not saying that there are, but am saying the possibility is there. Unless you are privy to information and trips from beyond this planet, you cannot deny the possibility, you can say you don't believe so, but it is still possible. Just like I can say I don't believe we are alone in this solar system, but it is possible until undeniable proof is presented ... as in, I see it with my own eyes.

In fact, I would think humanoid life would be more of a reason for cover up, since it would throw a wrench in the gears of a lot of human minds on earth ... since it goes against everything they are taught to believe since elementary school ... which would then cause other issues, like everything is a lie, authority is corrupt, etc. A whole can of worms that they are not willing to open up and set free.

It is technically possible that everything we have heard is the truth, to the best of their knowledge ... all of the smudges on the pictures are glitches and such, not photo manipulation ... that you can only randomly see stars ... that night time film from space is always fuzzier than daytime film, and many more oddities that you find if you take your time and look into things and research things beyond the scope of your personal belief system. The box isn't real, so it is fine to step outside it. Just keep yourself in your own reality ... for the most part, this stuff doesn't matter in your daily life too much ... other than your tax dollars paying someone to lie to you about stuff you paid for ... but that is another story. But ... you still love your family, and your family loves you ... whether there are people on Mars or not ... no matter what the truth is. The other stuff doesn't matter as much as the love in your life. You can only do what you can ... so think freely and act out of virtue ... and you will do the right things when the time comes.

hehe, have fun.

I will take a swing at answering you OM

Hmm ill happily read through it, i was hoping John "Im too good for you" Lear would enlighten us with his presence, but it isnt to be it seems.

Tell, me, in all of your life, have you ever saw the core of the earth? Have you known any instrumentation that has gone to the core?

Now, tell me, how do you or anyone else know what the core is.

With deduction. Things such as volcanic vents show us what it is like deep underground.

How are we certain that the 'gas planets' are really all gas?

Well we did drop that probe into Jupiter, it got fairly far before burning up and told us many things about Jupiter, and through this, what gas giants and planets are like.

Im certain in the middle of these planets there may be the vestige of Solid ground, but this is all because of the elements being balanced between the ratios of heat and pressure, which is stronger in the planetary body in question?

how are we so certain that venus is so hot? we did have rovers land there and take pictures. If it was so hot, how did they manage to safely land and take pictures?

because we are ingenious at making heat protection technology?

Im not sure how it was done, so i wont comment for now.

We discover new life in places we thought they couldn't exist, in forms we couldn't fathom, in the current times, on this planet ... if we are wrong about what life needs and can be here ... how can we be so sure about what life needs elsewhere.

Finding bacterial green slime on the outside of a volcanic vent isnt the same as finding life on other planets.

Once we drill into that underground ocean on Jupiters moon (Io, i think) we may find bacterial life.

Will this really tell us anything at all?

Look, Scientists love turning things into mathematical equations. Imagine if we managed to get every mathematical process of the planets into one mega equation, light, gravity, the elements, etc.

We assemble it all, we work backwords and we end up with the simplified mega number of the universe.

Lets call it 42

What does 42 really tell us about the universe? Jack all, thats what.

[quote
How can we be sure we would SEE life ... what if they reflect in a different wavelength beyond our scope of vision? Yes, cameras ... but, if they are hiding it ... they wouldn't show those pictures.

If they are visible in different wavelengths then there should be some kind of evidence of their existance, a building, a footprint, something.

If there is no evidence of existence, how does it exist?

Why would they hide it? How many people would freak out if they found out there was other civilizations out there, or other life forms that are not understood? How many people would question why we were told this couldn't exist for so long? How many people would try to drop everything to live a different life somewhere else, just for the experience and sights?

Hell, i would. But ive been trying it out, the Logistics are phenomenal trying to get such a project off the ground.

You say you have a great imagination ... well, then don't let the false rules you were taught limit that ability to see things beyond the boundaries you have learned.

But at the same time you should learn to narrow your vision, if you see everything at the same time, isnt it the same as seeing nothing?

Remember, a lot of science is theories and repeatable results. Just because one set of results are the same, doesn't mean it is the only possible result.

Of course, but if the corrolation between 2 sets of data are found, tested, retested, corroborated with other data, retested, substituted and retested in different conditions....can we not say there is a corrolation?

If a corrolation is found, we can almost certainly discover the meaning of this relationship and apply it to other like minded tests.

Again, life doesn't necessarily need oxygen either. We do. Technically, our plants do to, since, oxygen is a component of CO2. BUT, to assume all life in all existence would need the element oxygen ... would be quite arrogant and assuming. The fact is, to some creatures, oxygen could be like bleach is to us.

Of course, but looking for "Life in the universe" would be a horribly hard task, simply because if your looking for "ANYTHING" then its too hard to find anything of value.

Look for something we KNOW gives life, Water, Oxygen, light, etc, means that our search parameters are much easier and getting the information and results we want is much easier.

From there we can work on new forms if any evidence of it is found.

Its like doing a google search, really.

Now think about that ... oxidation destroys metals, right? Well, what if some life was metallic based? Far-fetched you say? Not really, we have metallic elements in us, in fact, we require some to be healthy. So what if some organism were actually reversed, to where they were mainly metallic vs our organic nature? When you realize everything is just a grouping of various elements, then, you realize ANYTHING is possible.

I realise this and understand this, but you have to understand that telling a scientist to look for metallics in the universe, in the vain hypothesis of metal life would be unfair in the extreme.

Give him something to work from.

The distance from the sun does not affect the planet's gravity to its residents. The mass of the planet or moon does ... yes, other bodies can also have an effect, but, to what extent? Do you feel lighter on the days/nights the moon is directly above you vs the days/nights the moon is directly below you? No? Then it shows you how little a large body can affect your planet's individual gravity on its inhabited objects.

Yes, but everything has a gravitational presence on everything else. Do you feel the gravitational pull of Jupiter right now?

Of course you do, you just dont know what its like without it, youve had it your entire life.