Ignorance and God

reply to post by Jenna

I understood the bible, was baptized, read the bible several more times, and after a few experiences stopped believing. So I'd say that it's not sealed to unbelievers since it was what caused me to believe and be saved prior to my re-reading, having better comprehension, becoming appalled, and ultimately rejecting it. Jesus said some smart things (according to the Bible of course), but they were mostly common sense things that you learn without reading the Bible as long as your parents teach you some morality.

Maybe you thought you understood it. If you had truly understood, you never would have stopped believing.

Luke 9:62

And Jesus said unto him, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Being baptized doesn't mean you are automatically saved. Baptism is an outward expression of obedience to Jesus Christ. Without a prior salvation experience, and an unshakeable inward commitment to Christ, you are just getting wet.

Where do you think your parents got their "morality"? Don't you realize the Bible is the basis for the entire system of justice in the West?

I'm curious what your "few experiences" and "better comprehension" really amount to. To me it means you experienced secular humanism, and bought into it.

Its your choice. Just remember you will be bound by it for all eternity.

reply to post by thedigirati

Who was Jesus, where did he come from, wait thats Odd, he is the Nazarene, an Man from Nazareth....... More research, what there was No Nazareth.. this cannot be, The Christian Bible is Truth, But Nazareth didn't exist 2000 years ago.......

You obviously don't know what a Nazarene, or Nazarite, is. Samson was a Nazarite, as well. Are you familiar with the story of Samson and Delilah?

Judges 13

2 And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.

3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:

5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Maybe you should look that up.

you can look to the left under my name and look up what those words mean........I also will not denigrate anyone their beliefs nor say I am Better or know something you do not.

Yes, you will, and you did, in the same sentence (if you want to call it that) you claimed you wouldn't and you don't.

I don't need to look those words up, I know what they mean. They mean you are a pagan. Which is just fine, for you.

Peace



[edit on 26-8-2007 by Icarus Rising]

Allow me to correct myself a bit as to the confusion surrounding Jesus being a Nazarene.

Hey, I looked it up.

In English, the town (Nazareth) and the vow in Numbers (Nazarite), seem to be similar. But in Hebrew they are two totally different words. The town, transliterated, would be: Nats-raht. While the vow would be: nah-zear.

It becomes very clear then, that what the Gospels are doing is not making Jesus out to be the 'vow taker' but 'the Branch' for the meaning of Nazareth is 'branch,' a very powerful messianic title used by a number of prophets:

Isaiah 4:2: 'In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel.'

Isaiah 11:1: 'Then a Shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.'

NAZARITE OR NAZARENE?

Maybe we can all learn something from this.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
I don't need to look those words up, I know what they mean. They mean you are a pagan. Which is just fine, for you.

Sorry this made me laugh out loud, no it does NOT mean I am a pagan, not even close, but I will allow you to Look up BOTH words together and see if you figure it out. sorry I still have tears in my eyes.....

reply to post by Icarus Rising


truly I am glad that you did the correction yourself, it shows promise for you, and No Samson is not from the same place Jesus was claimed to be from I'm happy you researched it.

Ok, here we go.

pantheism - 2) the worship, or toleration of worship, of all gods of various cults (paganism)

solipsist - 2) the theory that nothing exists or is real but the self (paganism)

pagan - 2) a person who has no religion

(taken from Webster's NWO Dictionary)

You connect the dots.

reply to post by thedigirati

No Samson is not from the same place Jesus was claimed to be from I'm happy you researched it.

You still don't get it, do you? It has nothing to do with where He was from, nor Samson for that matter.

Jesus Christ was descended from King David, the Branch (Nazareth) of David.

Keep trying. The God of second chances will always forgive you.

reply to post by Icarus Rising


you took each word separately, not together, together they mean the Godhood of man, the eternal journey to enlightenment, a path not a destination, something to strive for... True it has absolutely Nothing to do with Christianity, or star gates, or ufos, the closest analogy I guess would be Buddhism. I do not follow religion as it currently is because my relationship with God is between God and I, no intermediaries.... Just me and God, as it is for everyone, I am not attacking you or your faith, just the foundation of the story of Jesus.. there is truly more material from Josephus that Hercules existed then there is for Jesus, and it's iin the same writings.....................( I know..More research..)

but if you want the source I can give it..................

reply to post by Icarus Rising


Erm that is not quite so, the lineage of Jesus is contradicted in scripture it just depends on which parts you read in the new testament (more research) if you need help just ask.. I want it to be real, I want to believe, but I also want to win the Lottery too, the chances are about the same

the lineage of Jesus

edit to help things move along

this one too

did Jesus exsist?

[edit on 27-8-2007 by thedigirati]

[edit on 27-8-2007 by thedigirati]

Ignorance and God

Well, for starts, I fail to undestand what the title of this thread is about?

After Exact Uncertainty found in 2003, before when it was just Uncertainty, at least to me either there is something more about quantum theory or else it may just be Religion instead of Nonsense.

But since I did the research which is also on the Internet, other people can start there. Either you will or you will not, but again if anyone thinks that I have to tell anyone else:

First: I am not a preacher, so that is out.
Second: I am not here to actually convince anyone else, read the #1 again.
Third: Anyone else preaching that religion states to help others is maybe interfering with God's Plan.
Fourth: Besides the interpretation from scholars which is the best they can do, it may also not depend on them even if they wanted to do that because God may want others to help out even not in the field of study of Religion because they may have less of a bias opinion and also there are the history of the Saints, and bodies of some of them dug up and not decaying for like 500 years if one wants to look that up, but not all Saints, and I forget what it is called, but it is there at Wikipedia.
Fifth: I see no need to interfere because some people who go to Church want others to Act a certain way also, when others who do not go to Church want others to Act a certain way. Playing God? A computer game may be better or that purpose, so some of them beat your brains up.
Sixth: Over 600 Planetariums now go by Dr. Ernest Martin data about the stars at the time found in China Astronomical Records because of all things, Western Civilization tends to destroy its self over seemingly disagreements over religion -- or what else is going on in the world?
Seventh: Many websites will include the same thing over and over again, and only a few of those websites may really have a handle about what is going on nowadays in this world and those websites will be the ones to look for.
Eighth: The rest will scare you and also I do not want to play God like some others only seeking control over people and Power which may only be the Devil taking over -- while God grants Grace, although most people do not want to go through those extremes as it seems the Saints did.
Ninth: There may still be miracles in this world but to many it may not seem that way.
And:
Tenth: Do not pick on Santa Claus, because there are books out a few years back now because Santa Klaus was a real German toy maker who mades toys in his village for young poor boys and girls which spread over in Europe and finally made it over the seas to other places just after St. Nicholas was a real person in Russia just slightly before Santa Claus, another real person, and other people have written books about it, and also about God, but then the person in the end

Has To Decide Who Is Being More Accurate, just like reading any other book that has been out.
Pick out some good books instead of bad books, and look other things up on the Internet, because maybe just perhaps:

God decided to have his Way, allowing the Devil to be free for awhile longer so God could prove to those of you who states He does not Exist to Prove that He does Exist.

Or maybe some people just need Exorcists and Phychologist nowadays for the question would be:
If Humans could get off of this Planet, are those Humans really ready to face other life in this Universe, without ending the Human Species' Existence in the end?

Partial list of links which won't probably end the discussion anyway, even if those websites are really real which some of which still can be debated:

www.askelm.com...
askelm.com...
askelm.com...
www.crystalinks.com...
although some I do not have and others may only be stating what others may be stating - but not quite correct maybe.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.catholicpilgrims.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

and some websites I can not look up anymore since I did not keep the links. (Only so much room for Favorites.)
Now, the websites that think the Devil is running the world now I will leave that up to you to find those.

All I know is:
You better not pout, you better not cry,
Better not Shout, I'm Telling you Why,
Santa Claus is coming to town!

en.wikipedia.org...
Santa Claus has been commerialized but still I really did hear about a book that claimed that he was a real person, a Portugese German, and had all that the author knew about Santa Claus and how it spread here to the USA back in around the 1800's, but that was also years ago or about 20 years ago also.

So, I am not here to "Save" anyone, so if others want to be anti-social than I suppose that others also will be, since I feel the days of the Persecutions of anyone shoud be over. But knowing how some humans feel on this Planet, I do contend that also I have my own problems while others say what they want to anyway.

I do not feel the need to "Save" anyone and wonder sometimes why others seem to feel that need and what is that's person real intent anyway.
Something a lady recently asked me about, but she is a "Drama Lady".
And I am not all that much into "Drama" about real-life while others seem to be.
It has cost me, and now perhaps it is time to wonder what will happen next in the world of the Who is Who.

If you look at some of my previous threads you will see that I, too, have questioned the link between Jesus and King David. Apparently, the link comes from Mary. I am not a big fan of King David, too much blood on his hands. Yet he was "a man after God's own heart." Go figure.

Personally, I believe Jesus inherited the blessings and promises of one of His OT types - Joseph of the technicolor dreamcoat. Perhaps His mission was to reunite the birthright of Judah with the blessings and promises of Joseph (which went first to Ephraim and second to Manasseh, by Jacob Gen. 48:13-20) in order to bring salvation to the Jews. The spirit of the law fulfilling the letter of the law.

Please don't mistake me for something I am not. I've done plenty of research.

reply to post by thedigirati

you took each word separately, not together, together they mean the Godhood of man, the eternal journey to enlightenment, a path not a destination, something to strive for...

Yes, we all have the opportunity to be co-heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven, but only through salvation in Jesus Christ, imo. A priest of the order of Melchizidek.

Hebrews 7

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec)

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

I know, long external, but worth researching, imo.

As for your weak rebuttal: paganism + paganism = a pagan


[edit on 27-8-2007 by Icarus Rising]

reply to post by thedigirati

my relationship with God is between God and I, no intermediaries.... Just me and God, as it is for everyone

We are in agreement on this. "And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." (Mark 15:38) Which means intermediaries are no longer required, we all have access to the Holy of Holies, the inner sanctuary.

Christ intercedes for us.

I'm not claiming to have figured it all out, and I don't know that I ever will. That's the inexplicable, supernatural nature of God. I take it on faith.

Hebrews 11

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I thought I might interject something here...

I see a major point of ignorance in religion that keeps coming up all over the place.

A lot of people who say they are Atheist don't know what it means!
An Atheist is someone who believes in nothing. They have no religious beliefs at all. They believe only in the scientific, rational universe.

Often when people say they are Atheist, they really mean they are Agnostic. An Agnostic believes that there could be something, but don't particularly subscribe to any particular religious school.

If you've ever described yourself as "Atheist", please stop for a moment and ask yourself if you truly believe in nothing.

Atheist is a person who is not theist, who do not belive in supernatural being called 'god'.Some of us 'do not need that hypothesis'! Instead, we find that the best way to find about universe is through science. Just that!

Btw...the people who belive for example in 'allah' are atheist regarding Odin or Ra or some other 'gods' that does not match their 'god'.

[edit on 27-8-2007 by blue bird]

It is apparently the case that:

PANTHEISM:
belief that God is everything: the belief that God and the material world are one and the same thing and that God is present in everything

from pan- + Greek theos "god" which basically means all is god, god is all.

SOLIPSISM:
belief in self as only reality: the belief that the only thing somebody can be sure of is that he or she exists, and that true knowledge of anything else is impossible

from the Latin solus "alone" + ipse "self"..

PAGAN:
1. an offensive term that deliberately insults somebody who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible, Torah, or Koran
2. a follower of an ancient polytheistic or pantheistic religion

"Jesus said, “If your [spiritual, religious] leaders say to you, ‘Look, the kingdom [of heaven] is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. The kingdom is within you and it is outside you [mental harmony with causal universe].

(The leaders tell the people where heaven is, but they are preceded by nature, by the causal universe, by reality)

When you know yourselves, then you will be known [to yourself- your true unconditioned self, void of ego], and you will understand that you are children of the living Father [causal, ever changing universe]. But if you do not know [hindered by the ego] yourselves, then you live in poverty [ego], and you are the poverty [ego's experience].”

Jesus said, “I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. [void, reality, universe]

Split a piece of wood; I am there. [reality, what is, self, natural, casual]

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there.” [reality, et cetera]

They said to Him: "Shall we then, being children [having not yet been conditioned by ego], enter the Kingdom?"

Jesus replied: "When you [with no ego] make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and the above as the below, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, then you shall enter the kingdom." [when you drop all the unnecessary concepts, dualities, prejudices, and differentiation, you will see the one - the living father]

Jesus explains, "I and my [the] Father [living universe] are one."

In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus also said, "The kingdom of heaven is spread out across the earth, only people don't see it."

Because they only see concepts, dualities, and prejedices of the ego - the conditioned mind - when they are not as little children - and when they are not as little children, [absense of ego] then they can not be one with the living Father [universe, reality, kingdom]. They can not be at one with the universe that they inhabit. They have a differential ego that craves, wants, and desires what is not.

"Verily I say unto you, Except ye [ego] be converted, and become
as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Become as little children, remove your prejudices and conditioning that you have aquired throughout your life.

"He who rules his spirit [conquers his ego] has won a greater victory than the taking of a city."

And lastly, from Luke:

Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God [living universe, living father, from where all came forth] alone.

[Why should I be called good? Differentiation [of god] is not reality, and only something for an artificially conditioned ego [not childlike] to attach itself to in order to divide the whole into concepts [above is no longer below]

Yes - It's true. Jesus was a Pantheistic solipsistic pagan - otherwise known as a mystic.

Then again, so was the Buddha, Krisha, Mohammad...

"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite."
William Blake

So was he.

What does your ego hold on to?

I will agree that God is present in all things. He is also much, much more than the sum of those parts. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. He is the Creator of it all, and He is the glue that holds it all together. Jesus Christ is, not was, much, much more than a pantheistic solipsist. I hope you can see the difference.

I also agree that Heaven is spread out across the earth and people just don't see it.

I also agree that ego is a tremendous stumbling block for stubborn, stiff-necked, prideful humans. Is playfully poking fun at another in the spirit of mutual enlightenment an egotistical thing to do? Maybe sometimes.

I also agree that we must become as little children to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. We must recapture the joy, wonder, and straightforward participation in life that we started out with. We must put aside ulterior motives, deceit, and guile. Above all, we must be humble.

Matthew 18

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

I like the Coptic Gospel of Thomas Didymus, btw.

John 20

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

theditzerati, did you call in your guru or mentor to take up your fallen standard? Though I will discuss my faith with any and all, I was particularly enjoying our discourse. Your little jibes were quite amusing, and I hope I didn't go too overboard in my responses.

Peace!

p.s. That quote from Luke is another one of my favorites. The playing field is level, and we are all in the same boat - spaceship earth.

[edit on 27-8-2007 by Icarus Rising]

If it wasn't for some folks ability to ignore a belief in a god we would still be crawling on our knees trying to repent our "sins" to please this so called "almighty" being that acts as a 11 year old school girl.

You are completely wrong about that, imo.

Your anger at and frustration with God comes blazing through in your post.

I recommend a good dose of Blackabee's "Experiencing God" for you.

Step #2 is developing a love relationship with the Holy Father.

I will pray that your trials will bring you into a faith relationship with Him.

from the Healing Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi

For it is in being uncertain and not in control that we find true faith,
in knowing the limits of mind and body that we experience wholeness of spirit, and in passing through death that we find life that lasts forever.

Amen.

A few questions for the religious folk here:

What exactly is god anyway?

If for example you mean the binding energy that holds everything together, the universal 'one-ness', the great energy that flows through everything, then what if that is one day discovered to have a scientific explanantion (I mean we are getting pretty close) - does that mean that 'God' isn't really god at all, just a pure unsentient energy (as opposed to an entity)...

Or are we talking about the more traditional god like the muslims and christians believe in, the creator, the judge and the bloke who sits in his magic castle in heaven.

Why if people swear by the holy book (quran or bible), why then do they still stick to the primitive belief that the world was created in seven days by a God who made humans in his own image? Why then do the book(s) fail to mention the fact that giant reptillian creatures wandered the planet for thousands upon thousands of years? Is this just a simple oversight or maybe a revelation that the books are just man made explanantions of a world they couldn't understand?

Is there a god of dinosaurs?

What happened to Odin and Thor and Ares and Ramses and Thoth and all the gods of the old world? Did they die? Did they only apply to the Romans and Greeks and egyptians? What would happen if people started worshipping Thor again?

Why do Christians/muslims only believe in one God? Yet Hindu's believe in thousands of Gods? Who is right?

If an atheist is a person who disbelieves in God, yet the Christians disbelieve all the Hindu and pagan and greek gods, then surely Christianity is closer to atheism than Hinduism? After all they would only be one God away from atheism?

Are hindu's going to go to hell for believing in fake gods? Or are the christians limiting themselves and thus denying themselves entrance to heaven due to the fact they have a very judgemental God?

Why do Christians never ever see Vishnu or Kali or Shiva when they have holy visions? Why do muslims never see visions of Mary or the angels?

Why do some Christians believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

If evolution has been proven on many an occasion, then did God create evolution as a way of improving his 'perfect' life forms?

Why does a merciful God allow child abuse and war and murders to happen on his gift to man (earth?)

If as some religions would have us believe, we are the ONLY life in the Universe, then why did God bother making those BILLIONS and BILLIONS of other planets and suns and stars and galaxies?

What would happen if an atheist saved a paedophile priests life? Does the priest still got to heaven and the atheist go to hell?

Reincarnation? If as the Christians and muslims believe that when we die we go to heaven/hell/limbo... then how on earth can reincarnation take place as believed by the buddhists etc?

So many more questions... so little time.

Please answer these as I'm curious as to what people believe?



[edit on 27-8-2007 by mr-lizard]

[edit on 27-8-2007 by mr-lizard]