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Ignorance and God

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posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising


I just want to make Clear that I am closer to agnostic then atheist, I do believe God exists, I also believe "thou art God" the fabric of the universe is made up of God, and he is aware of us like we are aware of the cells in our body.

Stephen Hawking was asked why is the universe the way it is, and his reply is that is beacuse if it was any other way, we would not be here to see it....

I personally do not believe in Prophets, they are after all Human and subject to those emotions and fallacies

I suppose I could quote Stranger in a Strange land, Because to me this is how it should be however I'm sure it would offend sensibilities if you have not read it, I do recommend it the full version not the abridged it has one line in it that makes a very valid point about all mankind. it also was banned when it 1st came out but was the origine of communes of the 60's ( I think I grok it )

No it have no mentor, but benign.psychosis hit the nail on the head 1st try and the wife made me go to bed so I was not able to continue last night




posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
You are completely wrong about that, imo.

Your anger at and frustration with God comes blazing through in your post.

I recommend a good dose of Blackabee's "Experiencing God" for you.

Step #2 is developing a love relationship with the Holy Father.

I will pray that your trials will bring you into a faith relationship with Him.



from the Healing Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi

For it is in being uncertain and not in control that we find true faith,
in knowing the limits of mind and body that we experience wholeness of spirit, and in passing through death that we find life that lasts forever.


Amen.



Please, please take some scientific book and read...evolution worked very hard and equipped us nicely...



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by thedigirati

I just want to make Clear that I am closer to agnostic then atheist, I do believe God exists, I also believe "thou art God" the fabric of the universe is made up of God, and he is aware of us like we are aware of the cells in our body.



If you belive in 'god' existence you sure are not either atheist or agnostic!



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by blue bird
Atheist is a person who is not theist, who do not belive in supernatural being called 'god'.Some of us 'do not need that hypothesis'! Instead, we find that the best way to find about universe is through science. Just that!

Btw...the people who belive for example in 'allah' are atheist regarding Odin or Ra or some other 'gods' that does not match their 'god'.

[edit on 27-8-2007 by blue bird]


Spot on.

The Christians and Muslims who disbelieve in the multitude of Hindu or Pagan gods are only one God away from atheism themselves.

--

Also why has novody attempted to answer my questions on page 2? Perfectly valid questions all asked with a degree of maturity.

[edit on 27-8-2007 by mr-lizard]



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by blue bird
 


Do I believe God as conscience is real, no, I do not think God is sentient, I also do not think God is in our daily lives, when I say God, my interpretation is the force behind the creation of the omniiverse around us. Do I think praying to God works, Nope, that is just the force of the persons mind.

it's like this, if I give advice to my friend and say if you do this such and such this will happen, and then it happens, did it happen that way because I said it or did it happen because I foresaw it? this is why I say I'm more agnostic then atheist.

Maybe I shouldn't even call it "God" it's a misnomer to me but for general clarity I use it, should I call it cosmic consciousness instead? I dunno, which is the agnostic part, I know there is something because we have laws, it's not random, that is proven by science.

Do I believe in a "personal savior" nope, I surely do not, nor believe in Hell or heaven or the Devil, Satan or "embodiment of evil"

Quantum Mechanics is showing that we CAN create reality from mere thought, and if we can do this, does this not make us "god" for lack of a better term?

"thou art God" you make the reality around you.......



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
You are completely wrong about that, imo.

Your anger at and frustration with God comes blazing through in your post.

I recommend a good dose of Blackabee's "Experiencing God" for you.

Step #2 is developing a love relationship with the Holy Father.

I will pray that your trials will bring you into a faith relationship with Him.



from the Healing Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi

For it is in being uncertain and not in control that we find true faith,
in knowing the limits of mind and body that we experience wholeness of spirit, and in passing through death that we find life that lasts forever.


Amen.


Anger? Not at all, I will not go and firebomb an abortion clinic or behead someone; depending on your respective religion. Frustrated, perhaps but then everyone has their views and believes. It took me a long time to realize this and if your faith takes you to the invisible voyeur in the sky then I hope you feel content with it.



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by thedigirati

Maybe I shouldn't even call it "God" it's a misnomer to me but for general clarity I use it, should I call it cosmic consciousness instead? I dunno, which is the agnostic part, I know there is something because we have laws, it's not random, that is proven by science.

...................

Quantum Mechanics is showing that we CAN create reality from mere thought, and if we can do this, does this not make us "god" for lack of a better term?

"thou art God" you make the reality around you.......



Yes, laws - but, again 'cosmic consciousness' is not what science mean by the observed physical laws.

No, that is not what QM is saying. QM observe and measure the reality on micro (subatomic )scale. Observing the event - is not creating it. There are a lot of hijacking of QM going on(entanglement, reality, wave function collapse) from 'new age' people...



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by blue bird
 


by the mere fact of observation, you influence it, (I'm not "new age" but thanks for using labels) but of course you knew that already, just like you can know position or energy but not both. I claim no "mystic knowledge" or Power, I don't meditate to crystals, at best I'm a philosopher, and I express my own views, I attempted to NOT use labels at all, but I can always start if that is your wish.

trying to make an point thru attack (using labels like New age, pagan etc) gives one the impression your not as sure of yourself as you make the claim, I have called no one anything. not even wrong. I try to make my opinion as clear as I can without attacking personalities, I will attack mis information.

quatum mechanics paring


Similarly to any other physical object, the brain of a human observer has many different sets of relational properties, i.e. sets of properties that are related to different systems. Brain properties that are defined relative to different systems are generally different. Thus, the question arises as to which of these different brain properties are correlated to our beliefs about the properties of physical systems that figure in our experience


[edit on 27-8-2007 by thedigirati]

[edit on 27-8-2007 by thedigirati]



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by thedigirati
 


I do not know how do you come to the idea that I was 'labeling' you with the term 'new age'!?

I was trying to explain that there are a lot of misconception, misrepresentation and distortion of scientific ideas and knowledge about QM done by 'new age'. That is all.

Do you ever ask yourself - if we are capable of creating the reality - why would we create this one full of tragedy, wars, illnesses, poverty...






[edit on 27-8-2007 by blue bird]



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 12:04 PM
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I suppose you think the universe is governed by the laws of probability, then. What about all the exceptions to the rules? Obviously, the rules are flawed. Our understanding is incomplete. There is more to the picture than meets the eye. There is the visible world, and there is the invisible world, and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the bridge.

I used to be strictly empirical, too; if I couldn't see it, touch it, taste it, hear it, or smell it, then it didn't exist.

Now, sadistics are immatesticle to me.


Oh yeah, I meant to link my first ever thread on ATS, which explains why I feel the way I do now, if you are interested.

My Epiphany

[edit on 27-8-2007 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by blue bird
 


the question you have asked is for me easy to answer, no two people think exactly alike, which creates dissonance in the fabric of reality around us, your "wants" are not the same as mine, or the persons down the street. because of the varied desires of humanity it brings about the chaos you see around you, with more and more humans living today and tomorrow more chaos will come of it. If and when and until ALL of humanity becomes united in common goals, chaos rules the day



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 12:37 PM
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damn, this thread really has taken off.


Originally posted by JohnDoe43
No, you are wrong, people do take the text in the bible out of context all the time. No, Im not going to go find examples for you, just pay attention from now on (assuming you can tell when it is being taken out of context).


the fact that you aren't able to find a single example is a bit showing of the fact that you haven't an arguement here. if i was wrong you'd be able to easily find one post on ATS where someone has taken the bible out of context....



This mindset you have of us versus them, as indicated by your use of the word we, is ridiculous in my opinon.


it's actually not "us versus them" it's "us attacking arguements"
i'm not against any people, i'm against arguements and beliefs.


You are wrong in thinking that others can find god for you. You are right that you can find proof for yourself, and your right others should be able to point it out in the sense they can show you how to find it for yourself.


no, others should be able to find it for me. anything i know myself i can share with others in one way or another and directly teach them... why can't you do the same with god for me?

if i can prove god exists to myself, others can prove it to me.

i'm through trying to prove the existence of god to myself, i tryed it through every single denomination of every single religion in every manner that was suggested in completely earnestness... and i came up empty.
now, if it is something that is real, another person should be able to prove it to me... just like everything else that is real.



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 12:47 PM
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reply to post by thedigirati
 



And you honestly think that so many people would 'create' the hard and cruel reality for themselves on one hand, and on the other hand we all would agree over the exact height of Mount Everest being 29035 feet (8850 metres)!?



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 12:53 PM
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I have read your original post and understood the comment of "lack of personal comments", well if you are interested here is my story. I grew up in a religious family that had me go to a Sunday school ever since I can remember. I have followed the teachings until about the age of seven and thats when I first remember doubting everything I have been taught. Even at that early age I realized that things I was being taught as being "divine" could be explained by what I learned at school. But I still believed in the "higher power" simply because when you have an idea being pounded into your head since birth its very hard to dismiss it. My struggle with my belief continued until I had made the decision to go to a church seeking "enlightenment" but when I was there I looked around and all I saw was a simple building with allot of people performing primitive rituals like repeating some words "praying". Several years later it all came to me, it was like a eureka moment, it was the most incredible feeling I have felt in my life, it felt like I have emerged from a dark dungeon and have seen light for the first time and then I understood..... And here I am, is this personal enough?



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 01:23 PM
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I have several opinions on this matter:

Firstly what if God doesn't want our worship, consider if you believe God created humanity why did he create it like this? why is there evil in the world or why do we have free will? Consider further if God wanted our worship he could have created us with an inbuilt sense of God. Furthermore all God would have to do to convince 99.9% of people that God exists would be to reveal himself. Or you might argue that would make God an Idol but why then does God reveal himself to some and not others why do some people claim to be in communion with God, where others cannot even be sure that God exists, whence then is the idol? How can people reason to God when half the people who look at the ontological or cosmological arguments find them flawed and numerous others believe in them only because they have come to God before hand. Why are there so many different religions? why are religions like Islam and Christianity often so mutually exclusive, what about Buddhism where there is no God? How can you trust institutions like the church which hide and deceive and impose dogma in the name of God? Why do some people see angles while others see nothing? Was Jesus really divine, why is the bible so confusing?

Religion is so confusing its no wonder people get mixed up.



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by JohnDoe43
Im gonna make this short as its obvious to me how unreasonable you are going to get if I draw this out so Ill make one point. Just because I believe in God does not mean I have the burden to prove anything to you. I am not trying to convince you or anyone of what I believe, but am only giving advice. Take it or leave it.


That is exactly the problem with organized Christianity. You "give advice" even though people don't want it. And just to make you aware, telling someone that they will eternally burn in hell if they do not agree with your beliefs is not "giving advice". It's basically a mass death threat, hiding behind a book. And the "take it or leave it" statement doesn't work either, because when someone "leaves it", your religion goes out of their way to murder that person and their entire civilization. Ever hear of the Crusades? I guess they were just "giving advice", right?



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 



All I can say about "Ignorance and God" is the Word is truly sealed to unbelievers. It wasn't until after my salvation experience that I was able to understand the Bible. Draw closer to God and He will draw closer to you. I'm not trying to sound lofty and superior, that's just the way it worked for me. ...God will use you whether you believe in Him or not.


That was well said. As I was reading some of the posts the following came to mind:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God

1:24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

2:7. but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.

2:14.But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spirtually discerned.

....Whirlwind



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 09:19 PM
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First, I apologize for taking so long to respond Icarus. Had orientation for my new job, and a night class to go to today so this is the first chance I've had to respond.


Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Maybe you thought you understood it. If you had truly understood, you never would have stopped believing.


No, I understand it alright. I was a hardcore believer at one time until I started asking questions. That's when it started to fall apart for me. Once I started asking tough questions that none of the church leaders, or my family members, could answer without either contradicting themselves (while quoting the bible, I'd like to point out) or deciding that the devil was after me. It was only once I stopped being a blind follower and started thinking things through that I finally really understood the hypocrisy and lies I had bought into.


Being baptized doesn't mean you are automatically saved. Baptism is an outward expression of obedience to Jesus Christ. Without a prior salvation experience, and an unshakeable inward commitment to Christ, you are just getting wet.


Depends on your definition of a salvation experience. All experiences are subjective, and what I believe to qualify as a religious experience you may see as being nothing important and vice versa. The religious experiences I had prior to my baptism were real enough to me to convince me, at the time, that there was indeed a God.


Where do you think your parents got their "morality"? Don't you realize the Bible is the basis for the entire system of justice in the West?


Indirectly it's possible, but early American law was based on laws in England, France, etc., which was based on laws in Ancient Greece and Rome. Where ancient Greece and Rome got their laws, I'm not sure. But American law is not based directly from the bible or we'd still be stoning people for blasphemy and apostasy.
As for my parents morality, they got it from their parents. My mothers side of the family were religious, well some of them, but my fathers side were decidedly not. They still had morals though.


I'm curious what your "few experiences" and "better comprehension" really amount to. To me it means you experienced secular humanism, and bought into it.

Its your choice. Just remember you will be bound by it for all eternity.


The experiences I've had are, quite frankly, very personal and I do not feel the need to bare my soul and my past problems/issues to the patronage of ATS. What I am willing to say about them, specifically the final experience which was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, is that it occurred to me during and after my experience that if I were indeed following a loving, caring God he would not have caused me the intense pain and suffering I experienced to begin with. I've been told that he never gives us more than we can handle, but honestly the only reason I have a shred of sanity left is thanks to the pharmaceutical companies and their wonderful array of medications that cause you to feel no pain and allow you to stop thinking, both about what happened and in general. The last experience I had while a follower of the Christian God was indeed more than I could handle, and I'd already taken quite an emotional beating in the months leading up to it.

Basically, I came to the conclusion that I could no longer follow a God that can be likened to a parent heating up the oven while telling their child "Love me and do everything I say, or I'll put you in the oven." I no longer have it in me to follow a God who claims to want us all to be happy and be with him for all eternity after our death, yet allows hundreds of innocent children to die every day by starvation, being blown up, burning alive, etc., and resorts to threats of hell in order to assure our compliance with his rules.

Please don't take what I've said the wrong way, I have no intentions of bashing your faith or your God.



posted on Aug, 28 2007 @ 12:34 AM
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All I can say to that is I understand, am in a similar situation myself, and my faith in God is all that is sustaining me. I am mostly on the other side of the pharmaceuticals, except for pain medications.

We live in a fallen world. It will get worse until there is no doubt that no human action can save us. That way we will know that our salvation is truly of God, and not of man. We, collectively, have asked for this by turning away from the truth that we are responsible for our choices and must bear the consequences. God gives us free will to choose to follow Him, or not. He will have His remnant, regardless.

What we see unfolding around us today are the consequences of choosing not to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, and to love our neighbors as ourselves.



Matthew 22

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Thank you for your response.



posted on Aug, 28 2007 @ 01:32 AM
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In one of your posts Iracus, you ended it with Amen. Look up the Egyptian king Amenhotep. It's funny that they used to say Amen when they praised him.

I can understand exactly why some people do not quote wikipedia, or the bible. Quoting something that can & is altered so very often in it's life is like believing one of those serial killers who travel from town to town, changing their identity, lying about who they are...and letting them befriend you. What are you befriending? The bible? To befriend the bible is to befriend an unknown entity. I am no athiest. I am agnostic. I will tell you this though, most of the athiests and agnostics I've come across probably know the bible better than most die hard religious christian folks.

Do you know why I am agnostic? It's the exact opposite why you're a christian. Please believe I was a member of the christian religion before. A pentecostal to be more precise. My father was very religious too...he was also a muslim...a hindu...and a christian(In that order). Now he belongs to no religion...by choice ofcourse.

It is fact that the bible isn't what it initially was(If you do not know this as fact and you are an openminded individual, with a thirst for information...please do some research on it, as I am fed up providing help to people who(if they want) can help themselves). Why believe in something that is so very faulty? Ofcourse the bible is good for teaching moral values and such...which do not require a bible for it to be taught.

Now, as for is their a God. I do not know. I believe so, due to my experiences and others around me, but I cannot prove this. I do know for a fact though that their is something watching over me & protecting me so far in my life, due to the things that have happened to me. Is this thing my God? Maybe. Is this thing assigned to me by a God? Maybe. Is it assigned to me by The God? Maybe. My father always says that what's for one may not be for all...it's a simple way os saying, if the Christian God was The almighty God...he would not have to leave the religion and abandon his beliefs about that God. Same goes for all the gods of other religions. It's probably why some christians are now Buddhist & some Muslims are now Christians...what works for one, may not work for all. That's true! Could it be that the god you worship is my demon?

Think about that. Maybe my angels are the very thing that brings hardship into your life. It's ironic huh? Impossible? No!

God and ignorance? What do you tell someone who has never had a reason to believe in any god? And what do you tell someone who has too many reasons to not believe in God? That he works in mysterious ways? Maybe you can tell him/her that God just doesn't like you because even spirits choose favourites? Maybe, God's just molding them into a better person...by putting them through constant sh!t? Maybe it's not as bad as they think it is...afterall, they're not starving to death like some of those kids in Africa, who by the way are probably just not Christian enough. To Hell with all their African chanting and foolish culture! - that was irony*last time I made a statement without clarifying the form of speech used, I ended up being warned that I should not belittle other members because I called them illiterate, because I thought that they were supposed to know that I was being ironic, due to how the convo was going* After all, most of them were forcefed religion and Christianity...the slaves I mean...I'm talking about the slaves.

The Almighty Christian God IS omniscient. This is true. I do believe this 100%(No, this is not irony). Some believe that creating a being and knowing that beings' life outcome...knowing that that being is doomed from the moment he entered the Earth, knowing that being will not make it to Heaven and will burn eternally in Hell is the epitomy of evil. I believe that statement is true. The Christian God IS omniscient...also very evil it seems. But, to me, that is not The God...maybe it was initally...maybe. But now, it's just something us common men made up or drastically altered(hence the reason it's all so very faulty...unless ofcourse God can make errors-but not the Christian god...he makes none- That was irony) for whatever silly reason.

All the gods that we have made are real & can do what we say they can...because we said so. What we create is 100% real(not being ironic). That makes the Christian god real also...simply because we said so!



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