jesus did exist, face it!

Originally posted by lenisey
we will never prove whether he performed any miracles or not

Yes,
we already have.

Miracles do not happen.
Jesus never performed miracles.


Tell me lenisey -

Do you believe the miracles of Krishna?

Do you believe the miracles of Mohamed?

Do you believe the miracles of Osiris?


Iasion

Originally posted by paul76
Why do you keep having to try and convince us that Jesus does exist? Is it because your having doubts yourself? This is common in human nature to reassure ourselves that our beliefs are true. I've seen no evidence or proof of the existence of Jesus apart from the Bible. I've seen many things to discredit the Bible and many comparisons of Christianity to earlier religions, with striking resemblances. As far as I'm concerned religion is a load of dross and causes more problems than it solves. I'm very happy to be free of such constraints. I actually find Religion......Laughable!!

Why do you keep having to try and convince us that Krishna does exist? Is it because your having doubts yourself? This is common in human nature to reassure ourselves that our beliefs are true. I've seen no evidence or proof of the existence of Krishna apart from the Gita. I've seen many things to discredit the Krishna and many comparisons of Hinduism to earlier religions, with striking resemblances. As far as I'm concerned religion is a load of dross and causes more problems than it solves. I'm very happy to be free of such constraints. I actually find Religion......Laughable!!


Iasion

Originally posted by Iasion
Miracles do not happen.

In your life, perhaps not. OR perhaps you did not recognize them or notice them.

Miracle: making the impossible, possible. Unexplainable events outside the known laws of physics.

I have literally witnessed impossible events taking place, in my life. I have had someone else with me each time such an event happened (it has happened more than once, never the same thing twice, and not always was the witness with me the same one). And I am talking of physical/material things that truly SHOULD NOT BE...the literal defiance of the known laws of the physics. I say this with absolute sincerity and honesty.

So, do not speak for all the world. If you have not witnessed miracles, then say so. But they do happen. I did not ask for them or even think about the possibility. They just happen - still do. I'm sure others have experienced them, too.

Originally posted by queenannie38
So, do not speak for all the world. If you have not witnessed miracles, then say so. But they do happen. I did not ask for them or even think about the possibility. They just happen - still do. I'm sure others have experienced them, too.

I know we are way off topic, but I very much agree with the above. I'm not a christian, but I have experienced what a christian probably would call a miracle.

Vas

Well, the bible is history book enough for me. And no writings against it by other 'men' are going to change my mind. If the men that wrote the bible are fallible, then so are the ones that wrote all the other books that have been quoted for reference here. Because I know one thing of a surety, 'I know in Whom I have believed.' And nothing that anyone can say or do, will change my mind or my heart.

And whoever said that the bible, the dead sea scrolls, jewish or christian beliefs are ridiculous; maybe that garbage you're reading is ridiculous!

[edit on 8/25/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by queenannie38
In your life, perhaps not. OR perhaps you did not recognize them or notice them.

Do you believe the miracles performed by Krishna?

Do you believe the miracles performed by Hercules?

Do you believe the miracles performed by Mohamed?

Do you believe the miracles performed by H.P. Blavatsky??


Iasion

Originally posted by janasstar
Well, the bible is history book enough for me.

So,
you believe in talking snakes?

In the flood?

The rotation of the earth stopping?

What about all the saints rising from their graves in Jerusalem?

Do you really believe that happened?

Even though it's impossible, and NO-ONE noticed it happened - NOT EVEN the other Gospel authors!


Iasion

The issue is not whether Jesus or any other Biblical figure ever existed, it is how they existed. Even if Jesus was a fictitious character made up by the authors of the Gospels, significant portions of his character had to be based on real people that were living and teaching at the same time and place as Jesus.

Let us use Homer Simpson from the Simpsons as an example. We all agree Homer Simpson is not a real person. This does not mean that Homer Simpson does not exist at all. In fact, there are thousands of Homer Simpsons out there who eat donuts, drink beer, are fat, and balding. The real Homer Simpsons of the world served as a basis for the fictional character.

Similarly, even if Jesus is a fictional character, we cannot discount him as completely the figment of the gospel authors' imaginations. Just as Simpsons writers base Homer's character largely on real people, the gospel writers too based Jesus on a real person or real people.

good post. i agree that the character of jesus was a real person.much evidence points to him being a jew of most anti-roman/gentile/establishment disposition. not a miracle worker born of a virgin though. just an extremist reformer.

Originally posted by janasstar
Well, the bible is history book enough for me. And no writings against it by other 'men' are going to change my mind. If the men that wrote the bible are fallible, then so are the ones that wrote all the other books that have been quoted for reference here.

So, you are willing to believe one fallible book over another? OK. Why don't we get rid of these books that tell us what to do and actually look into our hearts and commune with God? Get rid of religion and religious books. You don't need them. God communes with us all the time. We just don't listen.

I know my God and he/she/it knows me. That's good enough for me. I don't have the need for everyone else to agree with me.

[edit on 8/26/2007 by Griff]

just wondering..................how exactly can a book that was written by the inspired hand of god be fallible?

i have heard the "well.............men wrote it" excuse 1000 times, but it doesnt wash. men wrote many many books through time, none of which claim to be inspired writing. making that claim sets the bible apart as something other than a mere book. "inspired by god" says to me, at the very least, "without error, factual, non-contradictory". so, since the "it was written by man" excuse is basically an acknowledgement to the fact that it has errors, isnt it pretty easy to say and see that it wasnt written nor was it inspired to be by god? isnt it also pretty obvious that if it was inspired by anything, it was older religions, just like islam was "inspired" by judaism and xtianity?

the answer , i believe, is YES.

reply to post by Iasion


source from external source: online wikipaedia
Jesus as a historical person
Main articles: Historical Jesus and Quest for the Historical Jesus
The Historical Jesus is a reconstruction of Jesus using modern historical methods. Most historians consider the accounts of Jesus' life to be historically useful.

Paul Barnett pointed out that "scholars of ancient history have always recognized the 'subjectivity' factor in their available sources" and "have so few sources available compared to their modern counterparts that they will gladly seize whatever scraps of information that are at hand." He noted that modern history and ancient history are two separate disciplines, with differing methods of analysis and interpretation. [64]

In The Historical Figure of Jesus, E.P. Sanders used Alexander the Great as a paradigm—the available sources tell us much about Alexander’s deeds, but nothing about his thoughts. "The sources for Jesus are better, however, than those that deal with Alexander" and "the superiority of evidence for Jesus is seen when we ask what he thought."[65] Thus, Sanders considers the quest for the Historical Jesus to be much closer to a search for historical details on Alexander than to those historical figures with adequate documentation.

Consequently, scholars like Sanders, Geza Vermes, John P. Meier, David Flusser, James H. Charlesworth, Raymond E. Brown, Paula Fredriksen and John Dominic Crossan argue that, although many readers are accustomed to thinking of Jesus solely as a theological figure whose existence is a matter only of religious debate, the four canonical Gospel accounts are based on source documents written within decades of Jesus' lifetime, and therefore provide a basis for the study of the "historical" Jesus. These historians also draw on other historical sources and archaeological evidence to reconstruct the life of Jesus in his historical and cultural context.


[edit] Jesus as myth
Main article: Jesus myth hypothesis
Further information: Jesus Christ and comparative mythology
A few scholars have questioned the existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure. Among the proponents of non-historicity have been Bruno Bauer in the 19th century. The non-historicity thesis was somewhat influential in biblical studies during the early 20th century, and has recently been put forward in popular literature by a number of authors. Arguments for non-historicity have been advanced by George Albert Wells in The Jesus Legend and The Jesus Myth. Popular proponents have included the writers Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy in their books The Jesus Mysteries and Jesus and the Lost Goddess. Other proponents of non-historicity are Robert M. Price and Earl Doherty (The Jesus Puzzle ).

The views of scholars who entirely reject Jesus' historicity are summarized in the chapter on Jesus in Will Durant's Caesar and Christ; they are based on a suggested lack of eyewitness, a lack of direct archaeological evidence, the failure of certain ancient works to mention Jesus, and some similarities between early Christianity and contemporary mythology.[66]

Michael Grant stated that the view is derived from a lack of application of historical methods:

…if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.[67]
Overall, the unhistoricity theory is regarded as effectively refuted by almost all Biblical scholars and historians[68],[69] & [70].

en.wikipedia.org...

Touchdown for our side! yay!!!



[edit on 8/26/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth
I'm not a christian, but I have experienced what a christian probably would call a miracle.
Vas

i'm not a christian, either


thanks for your statement of support!

reply to post by Iasion

Actually-
while i can not say what jesus did or did not do
since i was not there
I can speak from my own experiences,
and i have witnessed a few miracles as well as experienced 2 major
intense miracles of my own
And those were the" impossible no one would ever believe this "
type
while in my eyes we all witness daily miracles -
especially child birth
i have 3 kids and the moment you first look into their little
eyes -
you know that you have just given birth to a miracle
however-
that is just my perception, i realize it may just be every day
facts of life to most peope

and , yes, i believe in everyone's miracles...but i realize i am
very gullible at times because i am so open to the idea that
anything is possible.
i know i'm not perfect.
I just think that if someone was smart enough to be an every day topic - worldwide 2000 years after his death
He would be the best man to follow out of all the men who ever lived....
maybe i'm wrong

reply to post by janasstar


In reference to my above post, I know that someone is going to say that the wikipaedia is not a credible source, just like they did when I pointed out that the Encyclopedia Brittanica mentioned Jesus as historical fact. But I don't need either one to convince me. Most people commonly know that the bible itself is an historical document.

reply to post by queenannie38

I just finished answering the same post with almost the same answer
then i read yours and
yes.......i am all goose bumpy right now just thinking of it
I feel you.....
I , too have had a few VERY intense and "impossible"
miracles that i have not just witnessed, but was actually involved
in- and like you
there was many others who witnessed the whole thing as well
(once even the police were involved .......and had to make up
a story with us to explain a "disappearing " body that vanished
before our eyes!)
(they wrote it up as a body theft!)

I have just accepted the fact that it was meant for our eyes only
since it can never be expressed in any way that could be understood -
and it is a helpless feeling at times
to KNOW , REALLY KNOW ....that something exists in our world
that is so important
but can not share that knowledge.............
I can only show people the door.....
it is up to them if they want to go in
renee

reply to post by lenisey


Speaking of miracles, when I was first born-again, they were literally bouncing off the walls. I could just barely think of something I needed and it would show up at the front door. Amazing isn't it?

See my above post for historical proof of Jesus!!!

[edit on 8/26/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by Iasion

Originally posted by janasstar
Well, the bible is history book enough for me.

So,
you believe in talking snakes?

In the flood?

The rotation of the earth stopping?

What about all the saints rising from their graves in Jerusalem?

Do you really believe that happened?

Even though it's impossible, and NO-ONE noticed it happened - NOT EVEN the other Gospel authors!


Iasion

Well let's see here, I don't think the authors of the Gospels were alive during the flood, or the 'snake talking, or the earth stopping rotating. But, do I believe it? Yes, I do. I am not the only one. Even non-christians are aware that a great flood happened upon the face of the earth. Scientists and archaeologists alike are pretty convinced.

Do I believe that the earth stopped rotating? Yes, and now, so does certain scientists. Please read the following:



NASA & THE BIBLE



Thought this was pretty amazing and interesting!!

For all the scientists out there, and for all the students who have a hard time convincing these people regarding the truth of the Bible, here's something that shows God's awesome creation, and that He is still in control.

Did you know that the space program is busy proving that what has been called "myth" in the Bible is true?

Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore, Maryland, and a consultant in the space program, relates the following development.

I think one of the most amazing things that God has done for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at Green Belt, Maryland.

They were checking out where the positions of the sun, moon, and planets would be 100 years and 1,000 years from now. We have to know this so we won't send up a satellite and have it bump into something later on in its orbits.

We have to lay out the orbits in terms of the life of the satellite and where the planets will be so the whole thing will not bog down.

They ran the computer measurement back and forth over the centuries, and it came to a halt. The computer stopped and put up a red signal, which meant that there was something wrong with either the information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards.

They called in the service department to check it out, and they said, 'What's wrong?' Well, they found there is a day missing in space in elapsed time.

They scratched their heads and tore their hair out. There was no answer.

Finally a Christian man on the team said, 'You know, one time I was in Sunday School, and they talked about the sun standing still.' While they didn't believe him, they didn't have an answer either, so they said, 'Show us, '

He got a Bible and went to the book of Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous statement for any one with 'common sense.'

There they found the Lord saying to Joshua,

'Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand; there shall not a man of them stand before Thee.'

Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the enemy! And if darkness fell, they would overpower them. So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still! That's right... 'The sun stood still and the moon stayed and lasted not to go down about a whole day!'

(Joshua 10:12-13)

The astronauts and scientists said, There is the missing day! They checked the computers going back into the time it was written and found it was close but not close enoughThe elapsed time that was missing back in Joshua's day was 23 hours and 20 minutes ... not a whole day.

They read the Bible, and there it was about [approximately] a day. These little words in the Bible are important, but they were still in trouble because if you cannot account for 40 minutes, you'll still be in trouble 1000 years from now.

Forty minutes had to be found because it can be multiplied many times over in orbits. As the Christian employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in the Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS.

The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings that told of the following story: Hezekiah, on his death! bed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him that he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as proof. Isaiah said 'Do you want the sun to go ahead 10 degrees?'

Hezekiah said, 'It is nothing for the sun to go ahead 10 degrees, but let the shadow return backward 10 degrees.' Isaiah spoke to the Lord, and the Lord brought the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD! Ten degrees is exactly 40 minutes!

Twenty-three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in Second Kings make the missing day in the universe! Isn't it amazing?

References: Joshua 10:8 and 12,13 and 2 Kings 20:9-11.


Well maybe this had nothing to do with the earth stopping it's rotation, but still, it's pretty phenomenal! Right?

Page freeze! See above!

[edit on 8/26/2007 by janasstar]

Whether you believe Jesus as in Jesus the Christ ever existed and that he was the Son of God comes down to a matter of faith.

You either have it or you do not. And, no matter how many times you bludgeon a person with the Bible over it, if they don't have that faith, nothing you say or do will change that.

Also, no one and I mean no one has the right to gainsay the faith of another. Faith is a profoundly private matter and what touches your soul, may leave another's unmoved and vice a versa. But, either way you can only speak of your own heart. To condemn another's faith as false is profoundly arrogant and blind.

Using the Bible to prove the Bible is circular logic and as such is inadmissible in formal debate. Your arguments need to stand on their own two feet and that is the rub; it is a matter of faith and matters of faith are by necessity beyond proof or logic. It is a matter of the heart.

Personally I believe those who interpret the Bible (or the Quran, or the Torah etc.) literally totally misunderstand the nature of faith and the nature of spiritual and religious writings.

I have come to believe, after reading a great many of the world's scriptures, that they are best understood as metaphors trying to express the inexpressible and as such are far richer and more complex than any simple literal reading. To read them literally is to rob them of that richness and complexity.

Also who is doing the interpreting matters. I have no faith in preachers, especially the current crop of mega-church loud mouths... matters of faith are a quiet presence in the heart and not conducive to Bible thumping and mass marketing. These preachers are parasites, con-men and frauds out to make a buck on a souls spiritual yearnings. I don't trust anyone trying to make a profit off the needs of the soul.

The Jesus I met reading the gospels would have no respect for them and would have condemned them harshly.




[edit on 26-8-2007 by grover]