jesus did exist, face it!

To adapt is to evolve... to evolve is to adapt. Adaption and evolution are the exact same thing.

Originally posted by grover
To adapt is to evolve... to evolve is to adapt. Adaption and evolution are the exact same thing.

Thank you for this post Grover. I apologize for losing my temper with the subject. If evolution is only a form of adaption to you then perhaps we aren't so far apart.

I look forward to discussing topics with you in the future.

.........Whirlwind

Originally posted by whirlwind

Originally posted by grover
To adapt is to evolve... to evolve is to adapt. Adaption and evolution are the exact same thing.

Thank you for this post Grover. I apologize for losing my temper with the subject. If evolution is only a form of adaption to you then perhaps we aren't so far apart.

I look forward to discussing topics with you in the future.

.........Whirlwind

No problem... BUT, evolution is NOT a form of adaption, it is a description of how adaption occurs. That is all, only a description.

There used to be other descriptions as well, most notibly the Lamarkian theory with held that if say you cut a female rats tail off at 2 inches, then her offspring would have 2 inch long tails as well. i.e we pass on aquired traits.

Lamark predated Darwin by 50 years, I think, and he was on to something but it was not the most accurate or elegant of theories. Darwin comes along and says instead that yes life forms (plants, animals and humans) pass on traits but incrementally based on their advantage to survival and reproduction. So if there is an avantage for a rat to have a shorter tail; then the rats with naturally shorter tails will have a better chance at survival and breeding. Consequently each generation will pass on genes for shorter and shorter tails until the most advantageous length is reached, and a new species of short tailed rats is born. And if at the same time the original long tailed rats survive you will eventually have two distinct species of rat.

To broaden the the analogy as it were look at the native human populations in both the Andies and the Himalyas thousands of miles apart. They share two distinct characterisitics that set them apart from their fellow humans, short squat frames and barrel chests. Such physical differences from your average human form are an adaption to life at high altitudes and little oxygen... the barrel chests are needed to grab as much oxygen from the thin air as possible and the short squat compact frames are needed so that the oxygen in their blood is utilized more effectively by having less distance to travel throughout the body.

These traits appeared over thousands of years, and they appeared because they are needed in order to survive at high altitudes. If these communities had remained separate from the rest of their fellow humans long enough (the longer the breeding cycle the slower the evolutionary process) they would have eventually become a separate species.

Then there are the water gypsies of the Bay of Bengal region. They have been living on their boats for centuries and already they have developed traits that help them survive on and in the water including the ability to see better underwater than your average humans, and the ability to hold their breath far far longer than average as well...

... this is how evolution works.

We humans use the evolutionary principles to our advantage all the time. We do not call what we do evolution but the principles are the same. Take what breeders have done to the domestic turkey for example. It's breast is so large that the animal cannot normally reproduce and has to be artifically inseminated. Why? Because we like white breast meat for thanksgiving. Those breeders chose birds with larger and larger breasts for breeding until we reached this travesty; one that could not reproduce in the wild. We adapted that species to get what we want. Fundamentally the same thing as the evolutionay process except that animals in the wild do not have to deal with marketing pressures. The same is true with most of our livestock and agricultural products. Wild corn is about the size of a small finger... look at it today. It is also another product that would not reproduce in the wild because it has been bred so that its kernals don't drop. Dogs are the ultimate example... from the wolf to the poodle was entirely done by the picking and chosing of traits we wanted to survive. Same thing as evolution except we chose what traits bred.

And so it goes.

Darwin never mentions God in his books nor does evolutionary theory try to disprove God, an impossiblity (either way) because that is not the focus of his work. Nor does he claim man evolved from apes; what he says is that at one point we shared a common ancestor from which both apes and humans evolved.

Look at it this way, which is more elegant, a God that goes POOF you're an ape... POOF you're a man... POOF you're a short tailed rat, all as if by magic; or a God that may set the parimeters but beyond that lets things unfold like the blossoming of a flower in oder to better enjoy the show?







[edit on 1-9-2007 by grover]

reply to post by grover

And so it goes.

Darwin never mentions God in his books nor does evolutionary theory try to disprove God, an impossiblity (either way) because that is not the focus of his work. Nor does he claim man evolved from apes; what he says is that at one point we shared a common ancestor from which both apes and humans evolved.

Look at it this way, which is more elegant, a God that goes POOF you're an ape... POOF you're a man... POOF you're a short tailed rat, all as if by magic; or a God that may set the parimeters but beyond that lets things unfold like the blossoming of a flower in oder to better enjoy the show?

I enjoyed reading your post and agree with much of it. It doesn't sound as if we are far apart at all. Everything, every living thing has the ability to adapt and must in order to survive or it becomes extinct, as some have.

Animals, plants, etc. have been on earth for billions of years, as shown by science. Man hasn't, at least in a flesh form. That didn't happen until mankind was created on what the Bible terms as "day six". As far as I know, no skeletal remains of man has been dated past 14,000 years.

Thanks again for your post Grover.........Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


I don't know where you got the 14,000 years... if you are talking of homo sapians sapians (man the wisest of the wise... our name for ourselves; aren't we modest?) the traces and remains go back far longer than that; the painted caves of France and Spain are traced back 20 to 30 + thousand years ago and they were not done by neanderthals. Physical remains and other traces of sapian sapian go back at the very least 60,000 years. Also anthropologists have (the same as forensics) means to separate out apes and extinct hominoids form our family tree... most notibly bone structure and the like. Also odds are if they made tools they are in our line of decent... not always but odds are.

This is from Wikipedia under Genus Homo:

The most widely accepted view among current anthropologists is that Homo Sapiens originated in the African savanna around 200,000 BP (Before Present), descending from Homo erectus, had colonized Eurasia and Oceania by 40,000 BP, and finally colonized the Americas approximately 10,000 years ago.[15] They displaced Homo neanderthalensis and other species descended from Homo erectus (which had colonized Eurasia as early as 2 million years ago) through more successful reproduction and competition for resources.

This article jives with what I was taught in the anthropology classes I took.

[edit on 2-9-2007 by grover]

reply to post by grover

I don't know where you got the 14,000 years... if you are talking of homo sapians sapians (man the wisest of the wise... our name for ourselves; aren't we modest?) the traces and remains go back far longer than that; the painted caves of France and Spain are traced back 20 to 30 + thousand years ago and they were not done by neanderthals. Physical remains and other traces of sapian sapian go back at the very least 60,000 years. Also anthropologists have (the same as forensics) means to separate out apes and extinct hominoids form our family tree... most notibly bone structure and the like. Also odds are if they made tools they are in our line of decent... not always but odds are.

"The wisest of the wise" - that is modest (it sounds like my son-in-law)

Yes, I'm talking about mankind when I say 14,000 years. I have seen drawings of man riding a dinosaur on a cave wall and there are footprints of man beside those of a dinosaur on the floor of a valley I believe in Texas (I'm not certain), but they could be 50,000 years old, at least.

There was an earth age befoe this one that is billions of years old. Man was not "flesh" as we are today but did have mass. It apparently was a spiritual body much as the one we will have in the next age. It has mass, it eats, etc. but it does not age and die. Satan rebelled during that first age and many of God's children followed him. God didn't want to kill his children so He shook and flooded the earth and everything was destroyed.

In this age we must all be born of woman, go through this lifetime to see who we will follow, Satan or God. Once all the souls from the first age have been born the end will come and we go into the next earth and heaven age - the third and last.

The 14,000 years are shown to us in Genesis. When God created heaven and the earth it didn't say when but you know that it was billions of years ago. It "became" without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep ,because of Satan's rebellion. This present, 2nd. age began when, And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Mankind was created on day six. Peter tells us that ,One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Mankind on day 6, God rested on day 7, Adam formed on day 8, takes us to 8,000 years from the beginning of this age. There was 4,000 years from Adam to Christ and 2,000 years since His Advent. = 14,000 years from the beginning of this age.

As you can tell, I'm not scientific at all but from the few things I've read it seems there was a cataclysmic event about 14,000 years ago. So.....That is what I see in His Word. He tells us there were "cities and nations" in that first age and animals didn't build them. We were there but in a different form - apparently we looked the same in our spiritual form. We find fossils of animals but not man. The bodies we have today, one that ages and dies, God created in this age.


.........Whirlwind

So do you believe Jesus was a black man? seeing as the original Jews were black african? or doesnt it matter either way?

afgen.com...

The original Jews in Africa 2000 years ago were a Black African people as an ethnic group. (Massey: Egypt Light of the Word p501) Many of them still are Black, in northenrn Africa such as the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia. A New York Times editorial (3/2/84) described them as "a lost tribe that has kept it identiy for more than 2,000 years in a remote corner of Africa." Abraham, ancestor of the Hebrews, was from Chaldea; the ancient Chaldeans were Black. In fact, Africa takes it name from Ophren, a son of Abraham by his wife, Keturah (Whiston: The Life and Works of Flavius Josephus p50) Like Jesus, Mary and Joseph, the lineage of Ethiopian Emperor, Haile Selassie also goes back to Judah -through Solomon/Queen of Sheba and King David.

[edit on 14-9-2007 by Sekhemet]

This link explains why and when and how they created JESUS.. as we think we know of him today.

The Jesus Conspiracy

They loosely based their messiah character on the life of a Gnostic teacher named Jeshua ben Joseph (a real character who, they claimed, had lived about 100 years earlier and, according to some sources, evaded persecution by the Sanhedrin (the Hebraic governing body, also charged by Rome with keeping the Jews in order) by fleeing to Gaul (now France) with his wife, Mary Magdalene, and their daughter.

[edit on 14-9-2007 by Sekhemet]