this is not a black and white issue there is plenty of gray are involved.

the question here is where do human morals end and where does justice begins.

there probably is a balance point but as long as drugs, corporations and political agendas playa role in imigration we will not find that sweet spot.

Originally posted by Digital_Reality

As an American it is obvious that there is some that just want to destroy our country and do whatever they want. Just like they do in there former countries. They like the freedoms but not the laws and they do not understand that the laws are what make the freedoms. They come here under false pretenses and illegally to destroy us from the inside out.

Unfortunately, that is also a growing trend amongst American citizens as well. They like all of the freedoms afforded to them, but they don't want any rule of law.. They just want a loosey-goosey system where everyone does as they please. I, as will about 80 percent of the rest of the country, wil fight against such ideology till my dying breath.

I dont agree with the"world conquest"part but illegal immigration is a problem being ignored by our leaders.I think this is more of a threat than terrorism.Its already effecting many aspects of american life more than terrorism has.

look the fact of tha matter is this if the democrats were not pissed off at GW they would have passed the legislation but no so when hilary takes office she will end the war and pass an imigration reform

Souls, you communicated many of the things in my head that I could not verbalize. Thank you for your coherent, well thought out post. New Yorkee as well.

Originally posted by indierockalien
Nobody is really on the right rack with this post. I have no problem with people fleeing their homelands in search of a better life, because you know and I know that, if we lived with the same conditions as people in other less fortunate countries, we would ALL do the same thing. Especially if we had families to keep safe. All this border protection # and flag waving and "America, # yeah!" # is making me sick. How about being human? It's NOT illegal immigrants that are the problem. It's the governments of the world. The only way to true peace and harmony is to destroy all forms of government. # will happen. People will die. But if we live our lives fearing the "what ifs", how is anyone gunna ever think straight? We can't put trust in faceless entities to keep us safe from "what ifs". It's an individual's responsibility to care for themselves and their family. We're all humans, and we can't discriminate, especially not about something as trivial as what border someone should be behind. God, that's stupid. Listen to yourselves. You all sound like children.

Indierockalien, I think your post is very thought provoking, despite what others think I also agree we should see everyone has human beings rather than different groupings of people, however, I think that change has to be implemented gradually, and I'm sure there will be exceptions made.

thanks

These things your saying are great in a perfect world. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world. The only thing we can do is find a civil medium that will protect citizens and at the same time be as fair as possible.

You are correct, we don't live in anything that resembles a perfect world...

BTW, I'm sure your definition of a perfect world is different than mine... so could we ever truly have one that's agreeable between all parties?

When a person kills another person, they should be held accountable. I am not doubting that.

However, closing the borders or building a wall is just masking the symptoms. To get to the root cause of this 'disease', we need to understand why. This reminds me of the whole 'take a pill to make your symptoms go away'. They will just manifest in another way.

Now it's a different thing if the other party doesn't want to listen or negotiate, then your choices are very limited. However, if a person who's been good all of their life, and all of a sudden commit murder, it does beg to ask why? Especially if they have families to take care of? Why would a person risk leaving their family behind, fatherless, husband-less, and rot in prison for killing someone?

My question about all this has always been...when we spend so much time/effort/cash to help/fix/control other nations with OUR nation's interests in mind...why haven't we done something about Mexico?

A wall isn't going to fix this problem. Couldn't we spend that 8 billion dollars in a more efficient way?

As long as the average income in Mexico is $4000, and their government is reeking with corruption and there is the disparaging wealthy few amidst the sea of poverty, the citizens of Mexico are going to come to the US in any way that they can.

Why are we allowing the Mexican government to create a situation that WE have to pay for? If this is really such a threat to our country's well being, why haven't we bullied, sweet talked, threatened or otherwise nudged Mexico into compliance?

Instead, we tend to hear very little official complaint about their government. Why is that?

What you have to understand that most Hispanics who came here legally despise the people who commit acts like the ones in the post not for being illegal aliens but for being criminals.

You cant look at every Hispanic you see and assume they are here illegally and that they stole your friends jobs.

The real face of terrorism in America can be found at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Its his weak border policy that lets the criminals just walk into the U.S and rob, kill and rape.

Secure the borders and have an honest Government that is for the people and not for the bankers and war profiteers and most of our problems will go away.

As far as the ones who are here I don't have a solution on how to remove 20 million people but one thing is clear the border must be secured NOW.

Those who break the law should be sent back and those who commit murder and rape and deal drugs that kill people should be executed

Don't forget that America is part of the world and if things are bad out there people will seek a better life here and that is why we have to speak the truth about everything and everyone.

The thought reflected in that quote tends to place the blame on the Illegals rather on who gave them the opening to walk in here.

Some do come here for a better life and follow the laws of this nation while others don't.

My point is bad Government is behind every nation that has failed.

All I know is the way it is right now, its not going to stop . SOMETHING has to be done. If it continues the way it is than you can expect to see more illegals coming here and starting gangs and breaking laws. <--- I'm only referring to these people because they are the ones that concern me.

And yes I know there are scarer and meaner people in the USA. It only adds more fuel to the fire tho when a person comes here illegally and commits a crime. That ultimately is what Americans want to stop.

To me its irritating when someone points a finger in another direction at someone or something else in America to justify an illegal being her. Its misdirection and annoying.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by Digital_Reality]

Originally posted by SButlerv2


The real face of terrorism in America can be found at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Its his weak border policy that lets the criminals just walk into the U.S and rob, kill and rape.

It's not just Mr. Bush, though he does come in for his fair share of the blame. It's all of us, who through benign neglect have allowed our gov't., and corporations, both large and small, to get away with allowing unfettered illegal immigration. Our fault, not some nebulous other, not the NWO, or who ever. US, in great big quivering letters, Capital U...Capital S.

So the only ones who have the power to solve this are also US. The "we" that allowed this to happen through our blind apathy and neglect. Earlier I said benign, what I should have said was Blind Stupidity.

I don't pretend to have the answers, but WE had better come up with some answers soon, or our country won't be ours anymore.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by seagull]

[edit on 15-8-2007 by seagull]

Time magazine had an article about illegal immigration several times and one article got into the economics a little bit which I thought was interesting.

There are so many labor jobs needed. and so many illegals have come here that they are starting to compete for work. The first generation or so of day laborers used to get 12-14 dollars and hour.
But so many people have come here that now it is dropping to 10. even 9 or 8.
It is getting where they are competing themselves out of money.

In fact the article said that some families are starting to find it unprofitable and are going back. If they are going to be poor, they might as well be poor in their homeland.

I think that we are are reaching the APEX of the invasion.

Now, the arguement is that Americans don't want those jobs, won't do those jobs, we need someone. But right now the Americans DON'T want those jobs.

And quite frankly, many companies are not willing to pay for them. That is the excuse the companies use for cheap labor.

If we were to hit another bad depression, which currently, is very possible. You can bet your booty Americans are going to want those jobs. Just like a professional will work fast food till the next gig comes along. We don't need those jobs right now, but someday we might.
And where will the immigrants be then?


I really don't want to come off as unsympathetic. PP is right that if it were my family, I would be willing to do anything to save them. BUT, I am not happy with my government right now, I am trying do something about it. Most of us here are.
We are not running to Canada......yet.

One of PP is also right, why don't we hear much about the Mexican Gov. Why is the Mexican governmetn so eager to offload it's own people.

Why aren't the people angry enough to do something about it instead of running away. Is it really that bad? Or did the commercialism get to them too?
Something else Time pointed out is how this is causing the breakdown of the used to be tight Mexican family. While NewYorker is right, they are religious, and have a very strong community ethic, if they want to be American, they are going to have all the trimmings with it. Breakdown of the family structure, breakdown of the community structure. And their families and neighbors and friends can be isolated, depressed, and mentally defunct like us. Mexicans have deep roots, we don't. They have come here and found the ground very hard to put roots down and they don't like it. They thought they could be very Mexican American. I am sure that the orginal generations are not happy how their kids here are turning out. And they are not the first ones. But you can't get away from it!

I think they can see it beginnig to happen. Which is why they have now become so vocal that we need to create a Mexican nation for them. It is scarey and they don't want the bad parts, only the good parts. They have found the American dream isn't so dreamy afterall, it comes with a high price. I think that is the reason for the sudden outrcy.That is why some are going back. Better to be poor as a family instead of rich and not. Money is not enjoyable if you are alone.
Time even mentioned that some families are getting so estranged that the spouses on each side of the border are picking up lovers. That the workers here joke around how they have to buy shoes for their wive's boyfriends.
Is this what the Mexican community really wants??? I imagine it has a very military feel to it.

Our revolution started with a few people and a very convincing
pamphlet. Like others, I have wondered why the Mexicans don't want to make their own homeland better. If I were Mexican, I would rather have a better life in my homeland then somewhere else. Americans are basically saying take it or leave it, this is how it is. I can be a DAR on both sides of my family. I have a long history here. But my ancestors came here looking for a new life, not to bring the old one with them. If they still wanted the old life, we would be discussing Parliament right now and not Congress.

If the Mexicans like it here so much, then why not convert their own government? Then they can have what we have, and still have their culture as it is?

Like I said, I am not unsympathetic, but it is starting to affect my way of living. If I am going to change my way of living for a hard struck country, it is going to be a country that is not just poor and oppressed, but where real travesty is going on. Like Darfur, the Sudan, the Congo. Where people really need are help. Instead of rescuing Iraq, we should be in those torn places.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by nixie_nox]

the only way that i see to achieving human unity and equality around hte world is by changing the way of thinking around the world.

Unfortunately this takes time and not even war is going to make it happen overnight.

Hey you guys great thread, I must admit my mind has been swayed a bit tonight. Two things to say, 1. This will all be over in about 5 years (2012) and 2. Has anyone considered the bigger picture, like maybe the governments are trying to move populations around, say the US would be the area for the surfs and then they'll (Government and elite) all move down to Mexico ( in paradise) whilst we are in a slave state? And yes it doesn't really matter what race you are in their eye's, youre just labor.

Sorry if I got off topic a bit, just a crazy thought that hit me while reading this thread.

Originally posted by JohnnyR
2. Has anyone considered the bigger picture, like maybe the governments are trying to move populations around, say the US would be the area for the surfs and then they'll (Government and elite) all move down to Mexico ( in paradise) whilst we are in a slave state? And yes it doesn't really matter what race you are in their eye's, youre just labor.

That is an interesting proposition. If the NAU becomes reality, I think this theory definitely deserves to be looked at in depth. It makes sense to me that the US government will provide amnesty for the illegals in the country to make way for the NAU. Once North America is one country they would have to take all those people outta jail/prison anyways, so save the tax dollars.