Does space end?

whether or not space is expanding i can tell you with some confidence that we will never find the end of it. 1 light year is about 6 trillion miles. voyager 1 is the farthest away probe we have in space it was launched September 5th 1977 and it is only about twenty eight light hours away.one light hour is 670 616 629 miles not even close to one light year. and the nearest known star (besides the sun), Proxima Centauri is about 4.22 light years away. this is just to show you the vastness of space.

My feeling is that space itself is not a tangible thing, but rather is more like darkness. Dark is the created by a lack of light, and thus "space" is created by a lack of matter. Because of this where there is not matter there is space. According to that my belief is that space is limitless emptiness outside of our little bubble that we occupy. If you could go faster than the speed of light....Much faster...I imagine you could reach an area of space that has never been touched by light before.

Now try to think what that would be like; thats a migrane.

Im at a loss...

I cannot believe that the answers to your questions are at your doorstep, yet yall go on as if conjecture will be your flashlight.

if space does end then whats on the other side of that ending a gap between another universe or for anyone religious maybe its heaven

The Observable universe.

The Observable universe means 'everything within the horizon'. the horizon has a 13.7 billion light year radius as viewed from earth.

The fact that there is an Horizon dosn't mean that there is emptiness/glue/green cheese, the other side of it.
You can envisage the horizon as the surface of an imaginary sphere 13.7 billiobn light years in radius centered on the earth, moving out in all directions at the speed of light and determining the limits of how far we can see.

There is nothing special about Earth in this respect : each point in the universe will have its own spherical horizon around it, perhaps overlapping ours.

notice, however, that if you were to be instantly tranported to galaxy X 8 billion light years from earth, then the horizon around X would extend into regions of space that we on earth cannot see at this time. we dont know what lies beyond our cosmic horizon, but its reasonable to assume its more of the same, and the view from galaxy X should not therfore be much different to ours.

With regards to the grandest scale there are three main stream theories...

The entire universe

this includes all of (possibly infinite) space, within and beyond our horizon, plus all of its contents, on assumption that our observed universe is typical as a whole. this theory is based on 'The principal of mediocrity' this however is now being challenged leader to yet other definitions....

The Pocket universe

This is the region of space out as far as it resembles the obsevable universe we see today (which may extend a very long way indeed - far beyond our horizon) so if we inhabit a pocket universe then there 'Would' be a boundary somewhere, far , far away, beyond which things would look very different. there would however be other pocket universe scattered far and wide in this region beyond, some resembling ours but most of them not. this means the principle of mediocrity fails if we consider the entire collections of pocket universes...this leads to a final theory....

The Multiverse

Roughly speaking, this is a collection of pocket universes (probably an infinite number) plus the gaps inbetween) some call it the 'mega verse'

if this scenario is true it is highly likely that we all live in a simulation

Are we living in a simulated universe?

Warped Space

Most of geomeotry used today only applies to flat sufaces (euclidean geometry) Pythagoras theory etc etc triangles 180 degrees.

but with 3 dimension its possible to throw flat geometry out the window and have to come up with a new set of laws/rules entirely allowing the possibilty of warped geometry in 3d space.. so it is also possible that our observable horizon warps and wraps around in on itself. ( theory of bullet traveling through space and being able to shoot yourself in the back).


Phew sorry for the long post hope it helps a lil in your search for knowledge ...

Originally posted by DarkSide
I think space is finite because it had a beginning.

good point DarkSide. I say that space is limited but getting bigger. Ever since the Big Bang, all the galaxys are moving apart and some are still forming. I say that space is widening because of the galaxys pushing more and more.

Hi There,

Does 'space' end? It depends upon what you mean by 'space'. Are you referring to the space between objects (as in spatial relation), or to 'space' that is colloquially stated as the universe?

If you mean 'spatial' space, then you are referring to the emptiness between relative points...such as the spatial relation between the electron and the nucleus of the atom...such 'space' is infinite, enveloping all objects at both the micro and macro scales.

If you mean 'space' as the universe, see above. We cannot measure space, per se, except by the measurement of the vectors between objects, and such measurements define the limit of our measurement...space continues beyond what we can measure...always. Just bear in mind, that objects in space hold vector relations to each other, and without having a object from which we can begin a measurement, to a object where we can end our measurement, space would not be a concept we could conceive or apprehend consciously. In order to comprehend space, we need a minimum of two points upon which we can fix our observation. Thus, there is the 'known' universe, and that which continues on past what we can know.

Best wishes

Originally posted by Kr0n0s

Originally posted by shiman
Isnt there a theory that earth not only bends light, but space and time as well?

Some physicists use this comparison to describe space and the objects in them.
They describe space as something like a bed sheet stretched out above the ground. When you put a ball in the sheet, it obviously makes an impression in the sheet and this is what creates the pull towards Earth, the Sun or any other object in space.
Using this theory they say that light is also able to be influenced by the gravitational pull that objects have.
Einstein was one of the first (or the first) to have this theory and it was supposedly proven during an eclipse when astronomers were able to see stars that were behind the Sun.

So if you read my previos posts, you would see how the detection of the universes size could be distorted by many factors.

Originally posted by austinthetitan

Originally posted by DarkSide
I think space is finite because it had a beginning.

good point DarkSide. I say that space is limited but getting bigger. Ever since the Big Bang, all the galaxys are moving apart and some are still forming. I say that space is widening because of the galaxys pushing more and more.

The big bang theory states that the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years old.en.wikipedia.org... Yet the existance of black holes counteract the theory.

The oldest star out there is 13.2 billion years old.en.wikipedia.org... Black holes dont just form out of nowhere. There has to be a star to implode and create it. And for that star to form. there has to be an abundance of Hydrogen. That gets there from other explodeing and imploding stars.

Stars are constantly throwing hydrogen atoms at eachother. Each explosion releases a wave of various frequencies. The WMAP satellite is detecting only microwave frequencies emitted by the stars for a certin distance.

Frequencies get weaker the farther they travel. So most of the frequencies die befor they reach the WMAP satellite. So the Satellite has a limited detection range.

Also if you people watch nova, A stars life creates all the natural elements on the peroidic table. The process can keep the universe going forever. And it has been.

There was no beginning to the universe. It has been going on forever .

[edit on 13-8-2007 by shiman]

I might offer up that accepting infinitum (which I believe to be true myself) is an absolute statement to the nth degree.

So much so, that the question itself is rendered meaningless and that attempting to fix limits on anything is absurd onto itself.

Therefore it stands to reason there "exists" an infinite number of "dimensions" with an infinite number of alternate "dimensions" which "reside" in an infinite vastness without boundaries. So much so, that "boundaries" isn't applicable in any sense of the word. Everything exists and in turn, is infinite.

Time travel for example is real, only (currently 3D reality) unobtainable. "Life" after death MUST occur, if not in a religious sense, because "SOMEWHERE", you are still living and never actually die/cease to exist.

There cannot be a beginning and an end to infinitum as it is nonsensical.

I believe Hawking describe the universe as a ball and we are actually on its surface and not in it, so space can never end, but if we go far enough we can end up where we started since space can curve.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I believe Hawking describe the universe as a ball and we are actually on its surface and not in it, so space can never end, but if we go far enough we can end up where we started since space can curve.

Yes, but imagine a "ball" in 3 dimensions, not just the 2 dimensions that an occupant on the surface of the sphere would experience (left/right, forward/backward. To a "flatlander" living on the surface of the sphere, moving up/down would be meaningless. We exist in 3 dimensions so we have an up/down but again we are limited to experiencing reallty along the confines of our 3 dimensions - we live along a "ball" of 3 dimensions.)

According to experts like Hawking, the universe has no boundaries (like living on the surface of the ball, you experience no limits to how far you can travel, but eventually matter causes space-time to curve back on itself, perhaps such that that your ultimate destination is to arrive back at the starting point (depending upon the topology) BUT the universe is NOT infinite in size since the dimension/extent of the Universe is dictated by the age of the universe vs the rate of expansion.

I think to ask what lies "beyond" the universe doesn't make sense becuase the universe IS space-time. There can be no space (3 dimensional physicality) outside of space-time. The Universe creates space and time as it expands, but it's not expanding into empty space, it is CREATING space as it expands from true nothingness. Nothingness has no physical properties, energy, or dimensions (including time)

[edit on 14-8-2007 by DamnDirtyApe]

[edit on 14-8-2007 by DamnDirtyApe]

I've lost sleep over this question. To me space just "is". It doesn't end and it doesn't loop.

IMO, i don't think we will ever really know how or why it is. Lets say you give a newborn a long novel or book. Put him/her in a room by themselves, give them no communication or any other knowledge of books/words/reading/writing and leave them there for 20 years(pretend hunger/thirst/other necessity's don't apply, only knowledge) The child can see the words and the pages and examine every inch of the book. as the child gets older, he can make assumptions as to what it is, but will never be able to actually read it without knowing what its for and how to read. If our universe is the book, and we are the child, we will never actually understand it unless we have the necessary means.

I hope that made as much sense to you as it did to me.

Also, i never understood how space can curve. Space is just that, space. It just doesn't make sense to my inferior brain. Could somebody who knows what their talking about try to enlighten me?

Originally posted by S1RCH
IMO, i don't think we will ever really know how or why it is.... If our universe is the book, and we are the child, we will never actually understand it unless we have the necessary means.

You are sort of alluding to Gödel's theories of incompleteness as it might apply to our understanding of reality.

From Wikipedia:

---
For any consistent formal, computably enumerable theory that proves basic arithmetical truths, an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory, can be constructed.1 That is, any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete

--

I've seen this theorem applied as to why humanity, a sub-set of the universe, can never fully describe (explain/understand) the universe completely. We can fully understand or explain portions of it at one time, but to completely understand it all would require us to be a super-set of the universe, which we obviously are not.

This might seem like common sense, but Gödel's work had profound implications on theoretical mathematics and some people think it might give deeper insights into the nature and limits of our undertanding of the physical universe.

As for how can space "curve," keep in mind that we are talkling about comsic scales here. going back to the ball or sphere analogy, imagine that the sphere is Earth, and living on the sphere are two dimensional beings of pure flatness, like infinitly thin squares of 1 millimeter wide post-it notes. The "Posties" have width and length but no height.

Ok now to the Posties, "empty space" seperates various locations on the Earth right? If a Postie is sliding forward along the surface 10 feet, it has gone in what it thinks is a perfectly straight line, and at that scale of existence it really is pretty damn straight. But if the Postie slides all the way to New York from California, from the vanatge of the paper it has still gone perfectly straight. But what it cannot perceive is that the surface of the earth itself is curved. So the Postie has, in fact, been moving along a curved path as seen on the grand scale.

So now instead of the 2 dimensions of of the Postie world, we live in 3 dimensions. And the universe to us is like Earth to a Postie (actually the difference in scales between Earth and the Universe is trillions of times greater)

At our size we do not realize that the spaces we move around in actually curve. Now if we were the size of Galaxies then we would be able to notice it much better, but as it stands we are like a 1 mm Postie understanding that it's universe(Earth) is actually a curved sphere.

Don't worry if it doesn't make much sense - it's not supposed to. Asking about "height" to a Postie would be a baffling question that it could never DIRECTLY experience due to its nature (Height does not exist for a Postie after all) We can not directly experience addtional dimensions or the macro-scale curving of space-time because of our own inherent limitations. The best way it can be described and discussed is through mathematics.

We exist in only 3 spatial dimensions. Additional ones, if they are real, are typically desribed in string theory as being tighty wrapped into loops at the quantum scale (maifolds) and have no interaction with us in any way except that gravity is weak becuase it "spreads" into those dimensions as well as ours.




[edit on 14-8-2007 by DamnDirtyApe]

[edit on 14-8-2007 by DamnDirtyApe]

The universe, or EVERYTHING that there is, is infinite and therefore beyond classification.

Put in other words, it's always been there, always will be and is without shape or size. It's "real" only as it pertains to our consciousness but in truth, beyond our ability to rationalize.

What Hawking postulates might be true, but by nature alternative truths would coincide as well. Our understanding of physical forces is only one of an infinite number of possibilities.

Yes, we might see an "end" to the universe and yes, there is no "end" to the universe.

Originally posted by DamnDirtyApe
You are sort of alluding to Gödel's theories of incompleteness as it might apply to our understanding of reality.

I never heard of that, thanks. I'm reading about it now.

As for how can space "curve," keep in mind that we are talkling about comsic scales here. going back to the ball or sphere...but as it stands we are like a 1 mm Postie understanding that it's universe(Earth) is actually a curved sphere.

I guess if you put it that way, it makes some sense. I guess i can never fully grasp the whole concept, but who can?

Why am I the only one on the side of infinite universe?

And whats with the closed loop space? That seems worse than the big bang theory.

Yes.

Aparently it ends here. Or, at least it stops for a billion lightyears and starts again.

Of course, this in not any sort of "End" or "Edge" of the universe, but it popped up here on ATS and thought it was worth mentioning.

Very curious.

No the universe doesnt end. No its not a loop. Its is endless. And if i am wrong, it definently doesnt end at a star fissure

Originally posted by shiman

Originally posted by austinthetitan

Originally posted by DarkSide
I think space is finite because it had a beginning.

good point DarkSide. I say that space is limited but getting bigger. Ever since the Big Bang, all the galaxys are moving apart and some are still forming. I say that space is widening because of the galaxys pushing more and more.

The big bang theory states that the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years old.en.wikipedia.org... Yet the existance of black holes counteract the theory.

The oldest star out there is 13.2 billion years old.en.wikipedia.org... Black holes dont just form out of nowhere. There has to be a star to implode and create it. And for that star to form. there has to be an abundance of Hydrogen. That gets there from other explodeing and imploding stars.

Stars are constantly throwing hydrogen atoms at eachother. Each explosion releases a wave of various frequencies. The WMAP satellite is detecting only microwave frequencies emitted by the stars for a certin distance.

Frequencies get weaker the farther they travel. So most of the frequencies die befor they reach the WMAP satellite. So the Satellite has a limited detection range.

Also if you people watch nova, A stars life creates all the natural elements on the peroidic table. The process can keep the universe going forever. And it has been.

There was no beginning to the universe. It has been going on forever .

[edit on 13-8-2007 by shiman]

That was very perceptive. I think ur right forever is just forever but there is 1 question no 1 can anwser Where Did God Come From?

im gonna start a forum on this