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Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
The gravitational potential energy of the particles with respect to each other is reduced to a minimum as they coalesce.
In fact, the reason they form a sphere instead of a dodecahedron or something is because the spherical shape represents a minimal energy state.
Sorry, but the example is good.
A car only wears out if used frequently or left to the elements.
the exact meaning behind "closed" can be debated.
No, it can't be. A closed system is a system where no forces are known to propagate over the chosen boundary lines.
Originally posted by StellarX
The science establishment said that powered flight were impossible after people proved them wrong; physical laws may be independently true but the perception of what they are does not correspond so accurately with observation and what we believe may too a large extent bind or free us... No it does not and we really can not observe enough to risk making such arrogant claims. Establishment scientist frequently indulge in these type of diatribes, while virtually foaming at the mouth, but the burning of all science texts have never taken place before and certainly not because someone improved on earlier theories. Our mere existence is evidence enough that the second law is rather irrelevant when dealing with life and certainly not proved on a universal level. It's a abstraction at best and it's propagation is only useful to those that wish to demoralize people.
Originally posted by Astyanax
Ho, and, moverover, hum
Ah, the return of the post-chopper.
Slice other people's contributions up into bite-sized chunks and 'refute' them with huge chunks of personal opinion, salted with quotes from The Conspiracy Nut's Book of 101 Things Scientists Have Been Wrong About.
Seen it all before, seen it all before...
Sorry, O Secretly Bright And Shining One, but there are more interesting people to talk to on this board.
I'll have to forebear the pleasure of mixing gobbledygook salad with you. Call it triage if you like, and go play with someone else.
By the way, I think your posts read much better when they're run all together like this. They almost seem to make sense.
The entropy is not a physical property, but the number of possibilities that a system has to organize itself (Boltzmann).
Originally posted by Glyph_D
stellar i understand your perspective, however you are under the assumption that we are all dealing with the absolute(this is not the case). yes its true that the 2ndLAW has not been proven on the "ultimate" galactic scale. but as Tom pointed outs it is every where, and in all things that surround us. yes we assume that law extends to the far ends of the universe, is that so wrong?
as for the regeneration of the skin... your wrong. the exact skin that was removed can never come back. the missing skin is "replaced" by newly developed skin.
as for the car, you countered your self by this statment>
this is our point, by your terms it will wear out regardless of what is done. this is true and the scientific community defined such a realization a "entropy"
rightly so... however define to me where known forces and unknown forces reside. that is what i mean by debated- the range of your "closed system" is a matter of perception and knowledge(opinion/choice). becuase its based on that, it can ALWAYS be debated.
your reasoning doesnt hold with me. ill use an example to explain>
lets say we fill a large container with water. once its filled we'll open a valve situated at the bottom. as the water drains(gravity), we begin to observe a whirl pool effect(coriolis effect), and lets say some seemingly random splashes.
what i get form your stance> youd say that because the draining(a clear attempt of entropy) created the whirl pool and the splashes, that shows deterioration is not taking place. if im wrong correct me*
this however is a failure of understanding. the whirl pool and splashes "are" evidence of deterioration. as Tom pointed out its the path of least resistance(low energy) taking hold here and the water will continue to follow such a path until its ran its course(or being interrupted)
using this tiny thought experiment lets extrapolate our finding across the known universe.
at the beginning the universe was perfect(lets say for the sake of keeping things clean). then something/someone(big bang/GOD) opened the valve so to speak.
then all kinds of interesting things started happening. formations of galaxies and stars, planets, life..ect. to argue that the existence of these properties is a clear detraction away from deterioration- is not connecting the dots.
its goes like this > if god made you, who made god? much more relevant to our discussion> if our galaxy made us, what made our galaxy?
keep chaseing that and youll find that something is responsible(physical action).
physically speaking we are here becuase the universe is dieing.
youll also find that the predecessor is a greater force than that of the successor.Greater---->Lesser. the ----> is entropy. this is a universal law under natural situations.
efficiency is always lower than 100% in a natural system.
The reason i add "natural system" is becuase im giving you the hope its possible to achieve perfection in the realm of energy transfer using unnatural means.
however science has pretty much given up on seeking 100% efficiency.
what i dont get form your position is your resistance to the 2nd LAW, why deny that which can clearly be seen on a daily basis.
if you want to keep a part of your mind not in league with the 2nd by all means. but our logic is sound, regardless of your rebellious stance.
Originally posted by StellarX
The science establishment have not 'given up' ( since they know it's true) but have decided to cover it up as their masters asked them too.
It is always wrong when we assume things that so negatively impacts human perception.
It's unsettling that you think you need to tell me something so blatantly obvious.
The problem with your view is that you assume no intelligent interaction to counter the effects of entropy. You basically assume that entropy is more efficient at dissipating energy that human intelligence is at countering such effects.
That is not what i am saying... I am saying that the draining effect caused by gravity can be used to drive turbines to generate electricity as used in such schemes around the world.
But what both you and Tom do not seem to understand is that entropy is just energy changing from one form to another;
intelligence such as ours can use energy in any 'form' and apply it do work (energy changing form) and at some future date even hold that energy captive to perpetually do work.
And this is why i hate the second law and do not have much sympathy with it's proponents; it's all death destruction and general doom&gloom.
We clearly see ordering on a day to day basis and it's the basis of all human activity. Why would you deny this negentropic process that has tamed rivers and oceans and harnesses the suns energy to create more food and thus more negentropic potential in the form of human beings?
Originally posted by graysquirrel
The existence of the jet stream is in direct violation of man’s current understanding of entropy.
Originally posted by Glyph_D
just one word....WOW
what negative impact? death is a part of life, get used to it because it will find you. cherish what life you have left.
you know i had the same feeling, but you obviously needed to hear it. both me and tom had to correct you.
so your off in fantasy realm talk now huh? maybe(just maybe) one day our science can yield your desires, but that is not today.
you are confusing entropy with good old fashioned ingenuity. not tom nor i had ever said such feats were not possible.
im pretty sure both tom and i do understand this. but this energy can only be handled in its atomic form.
appreciate the optimistic view toward our intelligence. but even in your dreamworld energy will be lost.
you "can not" begin to grapple with the probability of atomic deterioration.
youd have to build a system that can predict every state of matter from now to its finality. but you still can not avoid it death.
why are you so emo? HAHAhahahah.
arguing orderVSchaos is futile because its entirely perspective
why are you hung up on these negative process? can you definitively explain whats a negative force and whats a positive?
ROCKS tame rivers because rocks are far more dense than water. sun light has been tamed by evolution and observation.
who twisted your mind? i must meet him.
seriously* do you believe it is possible for humans to create new atoms from scratch?
if you figure that out then your dreamworld can become a reality.
but until then all atoms will continue to dissapate till no atoms are left(admittingly that a long ways away, but it is enevitable).
Originally posted by Grock
How anyone could not believe in the breakdown of systems is beyond me.
(the body dies, its made up of various systems which in the end break down) there, I have proved entropy.
Originally posted by StellarX
Our scientist proved that it was possible back in the 1870's and you really need to start researching instead of assuming that i did not.
Simply not true. The energy ( heat, friction, etc ) of one process may be applied in another process to do additional work thus basically invalidating the idea that 100% efficiency or more is not possible.....I have to understand the entire universe to use solar, wind or tidal power?
you "can not" begin to grapple with the probability of atomic deterioration.
Neither to i have to unless i am trying to avoid the issue by introducing unrelated information.
Because you are so desperately ignorant and so foolishly nihilistic.
arguing orderVSchaos is futile because its entirely perspective
It's NOT futile because it invalidates the second law that suggest entropy to be the primary force in this universe.
What negative process? Negentrophy has absolutely nothing to do with negative force and maybe you should at some point check to see what it means. Sometimes i wonder if people still goes to school these days.
glyph
the usefulness of such a realization is the "predictability" of a closed system. without this idea your ability to observe a system could run in circles(3 steps forward 3 steps back). "some" possibilities can be ruled out because of the shear unlikely hood of a reverse progression.
tom
As the process of wear is essentially random, it's possible for the material worn off the bearings to redeposit perfectly so that the bearings "wear back to perfection", but so statistically unlikely that it won't ever happen. It's hugely more likely that the particles will erode and go somewhere bad. Thus the system becomes more random, because the process itself is statistical.
Why are you doing your best to avoid the facts here?
We already do in low energy nuclear reactios and biological entities have been doing since life got going.
Atoms do not dissipate and a whole lot of ignorance of the subject matter is required to arrive at such a ludicrous conclusion.
Originally posted by Grock
How anyone could not believe in the breakdown of systems is beyond me.
(the body dies, its made up of various systems which in the end break down) there, I have proved entropy.
en.wikipedia.org...
www.2ndlaw.com...
Entropy is not a THEORY - en.wikipedia.org...
Entropy is not a HYPOTHESIS - en.wikipedia.org...
Entropy IS a LAW - en.wikipedia.org...
Thats all I have to add to this discussion.
Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
Well, the potential energy is dissipated, in the form of heat as the particles collide as the protostar coalesces.
It's the same thing that happens when you jump off a cliff. The gravitational potential energy is converted into kinetic energy, then into sound and heat, at least that's what's left over after you're turned to mush.
As for the sphere, it's assumed the minimum energy state it can in terms of gravitational potential energy by forming a sphere.
The rest of the gravitational potential energy caused by the infall is converted into heat.
Lots of good data on this, go google "protostar infall heat"
So back to the original statement, no, the gravity itself isn't dissipated, but the gravitational potential energy is, and it is dissipated to the extent possible,
and is converted into waste heat as is always the case at the end of the entropy food chain.
Originally posted by StellarX
Which means you got it wrong the first time round...
It's also converted into light...
But not all of it is and your still thinking of 'dissipation' as waste instead of saying that it's just a change of form that can and does power life on Earth.
But there is no food chain and it's revealing that you need to use dog-eat-dog analogies. The universe is not at war with us and the energy will not somehow 'run out' if we do not 'conserve it'.
Stellar
2 a : the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder