How can you honestly believe in God.

If god does exist, then why is the world so corrupted? Why does the poor suffer and innocent people die? Is this what you call god existing?

Another point, Jesus is meant to die for your sins right? Then why do they say you goto hell for a sin? This is a paradox.

you running in circle still? or do you really want to know and are you really looking for an answer? have you read my signature?

God didnt make the world corrupt. he made it perfect and he gave man full reign over the earth. now let me explain the was Gods love works in a way you might understand.
most parents (the ones who care, I understand that some dont) when they have children are pleased whenever their children do good. but for the most part until they are capable of doing good on their own have to be trained and in time they can come to understand why they are doing good an they end up doing it on their own. its not until the child does good with full understanding do the parents receive that greater joy. if a child does something good only because they know that its good not because they do it from their heart, the parents are still joyful but it means a lot more then the child does that good form their heart with understanding.

the same thing with God. if God were to make man to where he could not sin, the only other choice would be to love God and serve him, nothing else. if this was the case, the love we gave God would be fake, it wouldnt have meaning. it wouldnt be from our hearts. it brings God far more joy to serve him willingly from our hearts. I explained this earlier. its like playing a game and cheating. if you cheat and win, you know in your heart that it wasnt real. same with God, if he cheated and kept his created in such a state where we knew nothing else but to love him, it wouldnt be fake, it would be real love when we loved God.

Another point, Jesus is meant to die for your sins right? Then why do they say you goto hell for a sin? This is a paradox.

looks like you read only half that verse.

the bible says that was wages of sin is death (eternal death in hell) but the gift of God is salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord.

that means this, if we sin we are only worthy of spending eternity in hell. but Jesus doesnt want that. thats why he died on the cross for your sins. it doesnt save you automatically. it doesnt guarantee your entry into heaven if you dont believe. you have to love for Christ and believe in him in order for your soul to be saved. Analogy: you cant just sit around and expect to lose weight, you gotta work for it.

OH and BTW. Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. that is the first and greatest commandment. reason, if you dont you wil end up idolizing his creation and will never experience his love.
and since God is the creator and all powerful, I really wouldnt question his reason for anything, Gods will is greater than you know.

those who chose to drag his name through the mud will be taken out. simple as that.

The reason i don't believe in god is because.Energy and matter can't be created and like that one guy said that the universe just recycles it self.And if a god like being did exist then there is no way it can control things in our logical universe it wouldn't have it's god like powers it would be mortal if it came into our universe so you see it's impossible for there to be a god and besides what created that god and the god before that god and so on and so on.And if the god is so intelligent then how could it have intelligents before there was anything to see and observe to gain that intelligents or something like that.Of and there is no way that god could see into the future because if there was no universe in the begining and if god exist outside of time and space then that god couldn't see into the future because nothing can happen outside of time and space or something like that i was trying to explain it without sounding dumb lol well peace.

I am having serious doubts that you have ever examined your own faith honestly.

so am I, only im having these doubts about you... you look at only the things that make sense to you. God is not going to make sense and fit into your head over night, in fact he will never fit in your head. if the almighty God could be fully understood and fit in the mind of a human, he wouldnt be worthy of our hearts.

I understand my faith, and I know it works. it works only if you work with it. you cant just say "oh I tried Jesus for a few days and it didnt work. thats called idolizing God and trying to manipulate him to do what you want. God is not going to let us be God, thats his job. and when people try look cute for God by going through the motions and put none of their heart into their works because they have no faith, God doesnt smile at them and say well done. he waits until they get serious and thats the most frustrating part, is when people dont have the patience for Gods will. even I struggle but I know from my past the waiting it better than not. I know that obedience is better than sacrifice when it comes to God.

oh and another note.
while the word 'Kill' has many definitions to it, it still holds a definition that coincides with the word 'Murder'.
if you want to get all technical, what the bible is saying is that its against the law to take an innocent human life.

"""oh and another note.
while the word 'Kill' has many definitions to it, it still holds a definition that coincides with the word 'Murder'.
if you want to get all technical, what the bible is saying is that its against the law to take an innocent human life."""

Murder is a deliberate act of violence.Killing isn't! And to say taking an "innocent" life is wrong implies that if a person is not "innocent" then it is ok to kill them!

Innocence like sin has many levels,and sometimes we have to do a little evil to do an even greater good! if you don mot believe that,then look at all the violence committed by god.the flood,for example,was an act of genocide! total destruction! but in gods eyes it had to be done so he could then commit a good act of rebirth,creation!

Murder is a deliberate act of violence.Killing isn't! And to say taking an "innocent" life is wrong implies that if a person is not "innocent" then it is ok to kill them!

actually you kinda just through that in there yourself.
Deuteronomy 27:25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

slaying a guilty person depends on the law of the land. we are to obey the laws of the land, even the bible says that. if the law is that a guilty person, depending on the degree in which they broke the law, the death sentence may be justifiable.

God flooded the earth... you have a problem with that? he also gave the people a chance to repent and/or get the boat with Noah and his family. He didnt just flood the earth out of nowhere without telling anyone.

and in the same way noah was mocked, made fun of, and ridiculed for such an idea, people on this website and people this this world so the same thing to Christians as well as God. they say, "where is he? why doesnt he ever show himself? why doesnt he prove his existence? why does he let bad things happen in the earth?"

they ask all these questions and remain stuck in their ways constantly throwing mockery at his name because he doesnt conform to their ways.

consider this, when you were little, you wanted to touch everything, thats how you learned. when you parents said not to touch the stove top because it was hot, you didnt understand and you didnt want to listen, you wanted to touch because you wanted to see for yourself.
the same thing goes with God, you may not understand why we are to do certain things or why its better if we did do certain things. but just because we dont understand the will of God does not mean we should disregard it.

Originally posted by Methuselah

so am I, only im having these doubts about you... you look at only the things that make sense to you. God is not going to make sense and fit into your head over night, in fact he will never fit in your head. if the almighty God could be fully understood and fit in the mind of a human, he wouldnt be worthy of our hearts.

Oh, haven't we all heard this childish phrase before...

"You can't understand unless you become on of us."

Well, the same goes the other way buddy. Your statement is a one-perspective view of faith. I could easily say you can't get completely what I'm saying unless you're me. WELL DUH. But would it kill you to try and stretch your head out of the box?

And, as a side note, I was a full blown Roman Catholic for the first twelve years of my life, and trust me, I do have an idea where you're coming from. It took a lot of time for me to begin to see things from a more understanding and tolerant point of view, but I made that important step. I feel like I should be sorry that it seems you have never made that step.

Originally posted by Methuselah

consider this, when you were little, you wanted to touch everything, thats how you learned. when you parents said not to touch the stove top because it was hot, you didnt understand and you didnt want to listen, you wanted to touch because you wanted to see for yourself.
the same thing goes with God, you may not understand why we are to do certain things or why its better if we did do certain things. but just because we dont understand the will of God does not mean we should disregard it.

Hey look, yet another argument of yours which doesn't even glance at the whole picture! Yippee!

Now, why do you need a God to tell you what's wrong from right? To me, setting aside my belief that there is no real right or wrong, if I put my hand on a hot stove and burn myself, I don't need a god to tell me not to do it again. Same goes for everything else, including murder, greed, and destruction.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by iceofspades]

Now, why do you need a God to tell you what's wrong from right? To me, setting aside my belief that there is no real right or wrong, if I put my hand on a hot stove and burn myself, I don't need a god to tell me not to do it again. Same goes for everything else, including murder, greed, and destruction.

so basically what you are saying is that you are your own god and you make your own rules based on what you feel is right and wrong.... right?

with that being said, since this is the image you are portraying, i think im going to make that same decision. Im going to take that step you were talking about and decide that I dont need a god to tell me what is right and wrong, im going to decide that from now on. and since I am my own god I decided im going to kill every person in this world who doesnt conform to my beliefs...

now doesnt that sound like a bunch of crap? this is your logic here!
you totally missed the points I was trying to make by bypassing the concept.
the whole burning your hand on a stove top was not implying that you need a god to tell you not to do it again after you burn your hand, but to keep you from doing it even tho you dont understand to keep you from getting hurt in the first place.

And, as a side note, I was a full blown Roman Catholic for the first twelve years of my life, and trust me, I do have an idea where you're coming from. It took a lot of time for me to begin to see things from a more understanding and tolerant point of view, but I made that important step. I feel like I should be sorry that it seems you have never made that step.

yeah I would have taken that step too, the roman catholic church is overly conservative and they teach false doctrine. doctrine that contradicts the bible. if you want a reference ill find it for you. the mormons teach the same thing, "man can become God if they live their life accordingly, well enough...etc.."

and no I never said you wont understand unless you become one of us, I simply said that you wont understand unless you want to understand and put your heart and mind into what it is you are trying to understand.

Originally posted by Methuselah

If god does exist, then why is the world so corrupted? Why does the poor suffer and innocent people die? Is this what you call god existing?

Another point, Jesus is meant to die for your sins right? Then why do they say you goto hell for a sin? This is a paradox.

you running in circle still? or do you really want to know and are you really looking for an answer? have you read my signature?

God didnt make the world corrupt. he made it perfect and he gave man full reign over the earth. now let me explain the was Gods love works in a way you might understand.
most parents (the ones who care, I understand that some dont) when they have children are pleased whenever their children do good. but for the most part until they are capable of doing good on their own have to be trained and in time they can come to understand why they are doing good an they end up doing it on their own. its not until the child does good with full understanding do the parents receive that greater joy. if a child does something good only because they know that its good not because they do it from their heart, the parents are still joyful but it means a lot more then the child does that good form their heart with understanding.

the same thing with God. if God were to make man to where he could not sin, the only other choice would be to love God and serve him, nothing else. if this was the case, the love we gave God would be fake, it wouldnt have meaning. it wouldnt be from our hearts. it brings God far more joy to serve him willingly from our hearts. I explained this earlier. its like playing a game and cheating. if you cheat and win, you know in your heart that it wasnt real. same with God, if he cheated and kept his created in such a state where we knew nothing else but to love him, it wouldnt be fake, it would be real love when we loved God.

Another point, Jesus is meant to die for your sins right? Then why do they say you goto hell for a sin? This is a paradox.

looks like you read only half that verse.

the bible says that was wages of sin is death (eternal death in hell) but the gift of God is salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord.

that means this, if we sin we are only worthy of spending eternity in hell. but Jesus doesnt want that. thats why he died on the cross for your sins. it doesnt save you automatically. it doesnt guarantee your entry into heaven if you dont believe. you have to love for Christ and believe in him in order for your soul to be saved. Analogy: you cant just sit around and expect to lose weight, you gotta work for it.

OH and BTW. Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. that is the first and greatest commandment. reason, if you dont you wil end up idolizing his creation and will never experience his love.
and since God is the creator and all powerful, I really wouldnt question his reason for anything, Gods will is greater than you know.

those who chose to drag his name through the mud will be taken out. simple as that.

Define perfect... there's many meanings to it deepening on how you see it. So therefore the Earth couldn't have been perfect, perfect is everything and nothing.

Second of all... where in the world you get all this information from? God tell you? Or the bible?

How is god greater than me when he doesn't show himself and no body knows anything about him? You want to know why no one has seen him? he doesn't exist...

Still didn't explain why innocent people suffer and die so horribly...
If god exist then he is the reason this happening. He would have known the future and how screwed up it is. But nooo he still creates it.

[edit on 20-8-2007 by AncientVoid]

[edit on 20-8-2007 by AncientVoid]

Define perfect... there's many meanings to it deepening on how you see it. So therefore the Earth couldn't have been perfect, perfect is everything and nothing.

Second of all... where in the world you get all this information from? God tell you? Or the bible?

How is god greater than me when he doesn't show himself and no body knows anything about him? You want to know why no one has seen him? he doesn't exist...

Still didn't explain why innocent people suffer and die so horribly...
If god exist then he is the reason this happening. He would have known the future and how screwed up it is. But nooo he still creates it.

perfect? there was no death, there was no suffering, there was no sickness, there was no sin. sin separates us from God.
you say he doesnt exist like thats some sort of fact when the fact is you cant prove that he doesnt exist. I cant show you the wind, I can only show you what it does.
I get my information from the bible, I read and understand it because I want to understand it,I dont go through it picking out what I want so I can twist it to throw it in someones face and tell them they are right or wrong, I dont have to twist it, its his word.

and yes no matter how long God waited to make everything, no matter what we would still fall and the earth would still end up a terrible place, and in the same sense, you my friend are still always going to be skeptical and always ask questions and never really find your answers in life because you are too busy trying to debunk everyones belief systems when you dont have a legit foundation to break the others down.

How is god greater than me when he doesn't show himself and no body knows anything about him? You want to know why no one has seen him? he doesn't exist...

when he doesnt show himself? hah, you need to learn to be still and know that he is God. thats actually a quote too. the bible says "be still and know that I am God"
God shows himself in many different ways, he is not going to just hop down from heaven and sit next to you at your dinner table. that would kill you and yes you would die. we are so sinful and wicked on the inside that being in the presence of God would kill us. God doesnt work the way we want him to, he works the way he wants to because he knows whats best. and just because he doesnt show himself to you in a way you feel fit for a God to reveal himself, doesnt mean he doesnt exist.
and actually you are wrong about no one seeing him. about 2000 years ago Jesus Christ came to earth, he was God in the form of a human being. he even said so when he came to earth.
he did miracles and other amazing things, even died and rose again and people still chose to doubt.
no matter what he does to prove himself, people are still going to doubt, and you are still going to ask the same questions because you arent going to be satisfied with the answers God gives you because you arent really looking for an answer. your looking to destroy what you cant understand, and the reason you dont understand is because you dont really want to.

The reason i don't believe in god is because.Energy and matter can't be created and like that one guy said that the universe just recycles it self.And if a god like being did exist then there is no way it can control things in our logical universe it wouldn't have it's god like powers it would be mortal if it came into our universe so you see it's impossible for there to be a god and besides what created that god and the god before that god and so on and so on.And if the god is so intelligent then how could it have intelligents before there was anything to see and observe to gain that intelligents or something like that.Of and there is no way that god could see into the future because if there was no universe in the begining and if god exist outside of time and space then that god couldn't see into the future because nothing can happen outside of time and space or something like that i was trying to explain it without sounding dumb lol well peace.

God cant exist outside of time,space and matter and still interfere with our universe because it would make him mortal?

Prove that!

God cant exist outside of time? God does exist outside of time, he is not limited by it, he is eternal which means he has no beginning and has no end.
and since God exists outside of time and is all powerful he can look into any part of the timeline he wishes for he created it.

p.s. yeah that entire post of yours did sound pretty dumb.

Originally posted by Methuselah

The reason i don't believe in god is because.Energy and matter can't be created and like that one guy said that the universe just recycles it self.And if a god like being did exist then there is no way it can control things in our logical universe it wouldn't have it's god like powers it would be mortal if it came into our universe so you see it's impossible for there to be a god and besides what created that god and the god before that god and so on and so on.And if the god is so intelligent then how could it have intelligents before there was anything to see and observe to gain that intelligents or something like that.Of and there is no way that god could see into the future because if there was no universe in the begining and if god exist outside of time and space then that god couldn't see into the future because nothing can happen outside of time and space or something like that i was trying to explain it without sounding dumb lol well peace.

God cant exist outside of time,space and matter and still interfere with our universe because it would make him mortal?

Prove that!

God cant exist outside of time? God does exist outside of time, he is not limited by it, he is eternal which means he has no beginning and has no end.
and since God exists outside of time and is all powerful he can look into any part of the timeline he wishes for he created it.

p.s. yeah that entire post of yours did sound pretty dumb.

Umm more like you prove it? haha thought so... can't...

If you say god has no beginning and no end, then i could say the same about the universe and that god didn't create it.

Originally posted by Methuselah
perfect? there was no death, there was no suffering, there was no sickness, there was no sin. sin separates us from God.

That is just your defination of perfect... No death? I thought it is death that connects us to the afterlife?

Originally posted by Methuselah
you say he doesnt exist like thats some sort of fact when the fact is you cant prove that he doesnt exist. I cant show you the wind, I can only show you what it does.

Ha good one. The fact is your saying all these things are meant to happen and there are things are there (don't know where you get info). I can't prove fairies doesn't exist, but i don't go on worshiping them.

Originally posted by Methuselah
I get my information from the bible, I read and understand it because I want to understand it,I dont go through it picking out what I want so I can twist it to throw it in someones face and tell them they are right or wrong, I dont have to twist it, its his word.

So you saying you believe in the geocentric model (Earth is at centre of the universe and everything orbits the Earth) of the Universe? Here the bible and church is wrong and slowed down science for 1400 year! Just because they were blinded by their beliefs. People were killed for going against their beliefs. So much for thou shall not kill. Selling people stuff they don't follow themselfs...

Originally posted by Methuselah
and yes no matter how long God waited to make everything, no matter what we would still fall and the earth would still end up a terrible place, and in the same sense, you my friend are still always going to be skeptical and always ask questions and never really find your answers in life because you are too busy trying to debunk everyones belief systems when you dont have a legit foundation to break the others down.

It's called science, eyes and a brain... Something which is tangible.

Originally posted by Methuselah
when he doesnt show himself? hah, you need to learn to be still and know that he is God. thats actually a quote too. the bible says "be still and know that I am God"
God shows himself in many different ways, he is not going to just hop down from heaven and sit next to you at your dinner table. that would kill you and yes you would die. we are so sinful and wicked on the inside that being in the presence of God would kill us. God doesnt work the way we want him to, he works the way he wants to because he knows whats best. and just because he doesnt show himself to you in a way you feel fit for a God to reveal himself, doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

Again how do you know this detailed statement? If he is so great he could come down and meet us without killing us if he wanted to.

Originally posted by Methuselah
and actually you are wrong about no one seeing him. about 2000 years ago Jesus Christ came to earth, he was God in the form of a human being. he even said so when he came to earth.
he did miracles and other amazing things, even died and rose again and people still chose to doubt.
no matter what he does to prove himself, people are still going to doubt, and you are still going to ask the same questions because you arent going to be satisfied with the answers God gives you because you arent really looking for an answer. your looking to destroy what you cant understand, and the reason you dont understand is because you dont really want to.

Again is there records or something about Jesus and his amazing stuff? And don't say the bible...
How did people know Jesus came back alive? Just because his body was missing?

[edit on 20-8-2007 by AncientVoid]

If you say god has no beginning and no end, then i could say the same about the universe and that god didn't create it.

actually you cant because the universe is time space and matter (continuum). all three have to exist at the same time and they have to come into existence simultaneously.

That is just your defination of perfect... No death? I thought it is death that connects us to the afterlife?

actually no if you actually read the bible it says that because of mans sin, death was brought into the world, because of mans sin plants grew thorns, because of mans sin, innocent blood of animals were sacrificed to God for atonement.

Ha good one. The fact is your saying all these things are meant to happen and there are things are there (don't know where you get info). I can't prove fairies doesn't exist, but i don't go on worshiping them.

yeah try to keep it in context next time.

So you saying you believe in the geocentric model (Earth is at centre of the universe and everything orbits the Earth) of the Universe? Here the bible and church is wrong and slowed down science for 1400 year! Just because they were blinded by their beliefs. People were killed for going against their beliefs. So much for thou shall not kill. Selling people stuff they don't follow themselfs...

where in the bible does it say that the earth is the center of the universe? it says that the earth is round in the bible, people tend to miss that a lot.

It's called science, eyes and a brain... Something which is tangible.

yeah science is awesome, its when people try to get rid of the facts and plug in their own theories to fit their ideas. (magnetic reversals, universe being billions of years old... man evolving from something other than a human being...etc)

Again how do you know this detailed statement? If he is so great he could come down and meet us without killing us if he wanted to.

read the story of moses and how he took the Gods people out the land of Egypt. read about how God showed himself to those people so many times and yet they still doubted and still pestered moses with questions.
all you gotta do is read and you will see why God doesnt do certain things for us.

Again is there records or something about Jesus and his amazing stuff? And don't say the bible...
How did people know Jesus came back alive? Just because his body was missing?

is there record of the earth being billions of years old? is there a record of the entire big bang theory, people act like its a fact when there is no supporting evidence for it. what about all the flood legends? how did those come about? there are a lot of those. how did petrified clams get to the top of mount of mountains? how do you get a petrified whale in the vertical position? how do you get grand canyon when in order to start it the river had to flow uphill?

when I say I believe the bible, I believe the whole thing. and according to the bible, there were witnesses who saw Jesus after his resurrection. those witnesses had it documented. what more do you want?

How can people keep this arguement up? It makes me want to get physically sick, that humanity constantly lowers itself to the level of bickering like children when religion and the existence of gods is the topic of conversation. Atheists; do you really think you can make so many disbelieve what they have been told to believe as they were raised? If you do, you're crazy. If you tell a 2 year old kid some guy made the world and his son was great and saved us all, what the heck are they supposed to say? "Ah, but dad, modern science proves that an explosion of ridiculously huge proportions created the universe"? Come on, kids don't know any better, and when those kids grow up to be adults, tehy won't know any better either, so there's very little you can do about it unless you can hypnotise people or you're a psychologist.
Now, don't think I'm letting believers in God(s) get off the hook either. They defy their own concepts. Jesus told us (As is CLEARLY STATED IN THE BIBLE) "Treat one another as you wish to be treated", and told us also "Thou shalt not kill", "Thou shalt not commit adultery", and to Respect thy neighbour, and a load of other stuff. I think that the Crusades weren't what he expected to come of his teachings. Also, when he said we were all god's children, and then claimed to be the son of god, wouldn't that mean that as another of "God's Children", I too, am a son of god? Technically speaking, of course.
Most importantly of al, and this goes for everyone, would you PLEASE STOP TRYING TO PRESSURE PEOPLE INTO BELIEVEING YOUR BELIEFS. Your beliefs and opinions are your own, and you should definetely not force them on others, no matter what the case. In this day and age, surely people have a right to believe what they choose. So ask yourself; "Who am I to say any different"?
Now, that's my take on the subject. I take nobody's side, I see myself as an independent observer, so don't go crazy if you don't like what I've said.

Originally posted by Methuselah

If you say god has no beginning and no end, then i could say the same about the universe and that god didn't create it.

actually you cant because the universe is time space and matter (continuum). all three have to exist at the same time and they have to come into existence simultaneously.

incorrect. matter and energy aren't dependent on space and time. especially energy.
as the science stands right now, with all the mountains of information we have on energy and matter, it shows that they can be neither created nor destroyed... however, there is clear evidence that space and time had a starting point with the big bang.

actually no if you actually read the bible it says that because of mans sin, death was brought into the world, because of mans sin plants grew thorns, because of mans sin, innocent blood of animals were sacrificed to God for atonement.

and the bible also says that the sun moves around the earth and that it is a disc... it isn't exactly the science book you should be working from.

where in the bible does it say that the earth is the center of the universe? it says that the earth is round in the bible, people tend to miss that a lot.

WRONG. it says that the earth is CIRCULAR. circular isn't round, it's disc shaped.

in the bible it says that the sun stopped in the sky... not that the earth stopped rotating, but that the sun stopped. that shows how the people writing the book thought that the sun moved around the earth.

yeah science is awesome, its when people try to get rid of the facts and plug in their own theories to fit their ideas. (magnetic reversals, universe being billions of years old... man evolving from something other than a human being...etc)

none of those things involving getting rid of facts.

read the story of moses and how he took the Gods people out the land of Egypt.

yes, in fact it's the one and only account of such fabricated history

read about how God showed himself to those people so many times and yet they still doubted and still pestered moses with questions.

because it's a story.

all you gotta do is read and you will see why God doesnt do certain things for us.

yes, because the god of the bible is clearly a maniac. disagree? well, what besides a maniac condones multiple genocides?

is there record of the earth being billions of years old?

yes, geological dating methods.

is there a record of the entire big bang theory, people act like its a fact when there is no supporting evidence for it.

sorry kiddo, read up on it. there is compelling evidence to show the big bang happened
even wikipedia has info on it for a quick readup
en.wikipedia.org...

what about all the flood legends? how did those come about?

and why do they ALL contradict each other?

there are a lot of those.

yes, look into jungian psychology for why.

how did petrified clams get to the top of mount of mountains?

because the land that is now at the top of the mountain used to be at or below sea level... that's how plate tectonics work

how do you get a petrified whale in the vertical position?

plenty of ways...

how do you get grand canyon when in order to start it the river had to flow uphill?

alright, now you're making a statement...
why would a river have to flow uphill? explain the geology behind that.

when I say I believe the bible, I believe the whole thing. and according to the bible, there were witnesses who saw Jesus after his resurrection. those witnesses had it documented. what more do you want?

no they didn't. nothing about jesus dates to early enough for it to have been first hand accounts. the earliest writings are from a KNOWN third hand accounts because paul was writing them.

i want a source that we can date to around 30 CE that talks about "jesus" or "yeshu" or "yeshua"

god is a story based on the sun and astrology, then transformed into religion for political reasons.

For those that want a great in-depth explanation: zeitgeistmovie.com...

[edit on 20-8-2007 by luis9343]

however, there is clear evidence that space and time had a starting point with the big bang.

boy I cant wait for the day you stand before God himself and try telling him that.

prove it. show me the evidence.

and yes you need space for matter. without space where would you put the matter? that doesnt take rocket science to figure that one out.

WRONG. it says that the earth is CIRCULAR. circular isn't round, it's disc shaped.

in the bible it says that the sun stopped in the sky... not that the earth stopped rotating, but that the sun stopped. that shows how the people writing the book thought that the sun moved around the earth.

WOW because they had spaceships back then and could be technically correct then they wrote it. no they wrote it as it appeared to them. from earth it appears that the sun would stop in the sky.
and I didnt know you knew what those people were thinking. again trying to find flaw that doesnt exist.

none of those things involving getting rid of facts.

you are right! because they arent facts. they are false theories based upon lies. things that have been proven wrong time and again.

read the story of moses and how he took the Gods people out the land of Egypt.



yes, in fact it's the one and only account of such fabricated history



read about how God showed himself to those people so many times and yet they still doubted and still pestered moses with questions.



because it's a story.

dude im sorry you cant understand. I wish I could help, really.
they are in the bible for a reason. you learn from the past as well as others pasts. its not just a story, and even if it was, dont you think the moral of the story is valid?

yes, geological dating methods.

uh radiometric dating is only good up to a few thousand years. thats all. after that its very inaccurate.

sorry kiddo, read up on it. there is compelling evidence to show the big bang happened
even wikipedia has info on it for a quick readup

yeah and there is way too much evidence against it as well. laws that contradict that theory altogether.

and why do they ALL contradict each other?

actually they dont, read a little more carefully and a little slower next time you google that one.

alright, now you're making a statement...
why would a river have to flow uphill? explain the geology behind that.

the difference in height of the canyon from teh beginning to the end. I dont know exact numbers but I can find them for you if you really want to know. but let me just throw out number to prove my point. at the beginning of grand canyon the top of the canyon is about 2000 feet. after about a few miles down the canyon, the top of the canyon increases to 2500 feet.
now in order for that river to start carving grand canyon, the river would have to flow uphill to get it started.

now if you are like me and believe a great flood created that canyon, there is no problem at all. plenty of water to carve grand canyon.
heck look at mars. there is very little water if any on that planet and it has canyons way bigger than grand canyon. people dont understand that a lot of water can make something like that in a matter of weeks. not millions of years.

[edit on 20-8-2007 by Methuselah]

Originally posted by Methuselah
boy I cant wait for the day you stand before God himself and try telling him that.

prove it. show me the evidence.

and yes you need space for matter. without space where would you put the matter? that doesnt take rocket science to figure that one out.

Why in the world do you keep on saying prove it when you have the least evidence here (more like nothing...)? You think space is just nothing? Space is also something at subatomic levels.

Originally posted by Methuselah
WOW because they had spaceships back then and could be technically correct then they wrote it. no they wrote it as it appeared to them. from earth it appears that the sun would stop in the sky.
and I didnt know you knew what those people were thinking. again trying to find flaw that doesnt exist.

Umm the church believed in the geocentric model of the universe. Killed anyone who dared go against them. Here you see an example of brain wash and greed for power.

Originally posted by Methuselah
you are right! because they arent facts. they are false theories based upon lies. things that have been proven wrong time and again.

The church has been proven wrong. Again geocentric model.

Originally posted by Methuselah
dude im sorry you cant understand. I wish I could help, really.
they are in the bible for a reason. you learn from the past as well as others pasts. its not just a story, and even if it was, dont you think the moral of the story is valid?

Who can't make up stories that have a valid moral? Just because it's in the bible doesn't make it better than any other book or any more truthful. Where did all these stories come from? Did god write them himself? Who witnessed the garden of eve? Who's been to heaven or hell then suddenly wrote in the bible?

Answer: no one...

sorry kiddo, read up on it. there is compelling evidence to show the big bang happened
even wikipedia has info on it for a quick readup

Originally posted by Methuselah
yeah and there is way too much evidence against it as well. laws that contradict that theory altogether.

What evidence against it? The big bang has helped explained so many things in this universes which has been tested and correct. There are no laws that contradict it, none at all, infact it supports laws which were before the theory. Read on the string theory as well.

alright, now you're making a statement...
why would a river have to flow uphill? explain the geology behind that.

Originally posted by Methuselah
now if you are like me and believe a great flood created that canyon, there is no problem at all. plenty of water to carve grand canyon.
heck look at mars. there is very little water if any on that planet and it has canyons way bigger than grand canyon. people dont understand that a lot of water can make something like that in a matter of weeks. not millions of years.

lol what the? matters of week. If you say that then shouldn't the Earth be like gone because of all the water? That means every few weeks the Earth should decrease in size.

By the way. You still haven't answered the 'perfect' comment properly. That was only your view of perfect, no one else's. The fact is you can't have something perfect. Perfect is everything and nothing...


[edit on 21-8-2007 by AncientVoid]

[edit on 21-8-2007 by AncientVoid]

Originally posted by Methuselah
boy I cant wait for the day you stand before God himself and try telling him that.

prove it. show me the evidence.

i provided a link to wikipedia for some rudimentary study on the issue. i suggest you go to it.

and yes you need space for matter. without space where would you put the matter?

in the absence of space.

that doesnt take rocket science to figure that one out.

...well obviously calculating the trajectory, flightspeed, acceleration, etc of rockets wouldn't have anything to do with it...

WOW because they had spaceships back then and could be technically correct then they wrote it. no they wrote it as it appeared to them.

no, they wrote it as they imagined it... because it never happened.
even in genesis it says that the sun goes round the earth...
it also says that the moon is a light... not that it reflects light

from earth it appears that the sun would stop in the sky.
and I didnt know you knew what those people were thinking. again trying to find flaw that doesnt exist.

no, i'm trying to find a flaw that you admitted to: they didn't know what they were talking about.

and you completely miss my point that the bible says the earth is a circle, not a sphere.

you are right! because they arent facts. they are false theories based upon lies. things that have been proven wrong time and again.

no, they haven't been proven wrong. the evidence for those theories and particularly evolution is overwhelming

dude im sorry you cant understand. I wish I could help, really.
they are in the bible for a reason. you learn from the past as well as others pasts. its not just a story, and even if it was, dont you think the moral of the story is valid?

that it's ok for the entirety of a nation's firstborn to die, for crops to be ruined, and for an entire nation to be devestated for a "chosen" group of people?
no, the moral of the story isn't valid.

uh radiometric dating is only good up to a few thousand years. thats all. after that its very inaccurate.

incorrect, you're thinking of CARBON dating. other forms of radiometric dating extend far further.

yeah and there is way too much evidence against it as well. laws that contradict that theory altogether.

provide them

actually they dont, read a little more carefully and a little slower next time you google that one.

i didn't google it, i actually looked up the flood stories seperately... the only ones that don't completely contradict is the story which the noah story directly plageurizes from and the christianized versions of native american tribal flood stories.

the difference in height of the canyon from teh beginning to the end.

you're forgetting about geological shifts. we're talking the course of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of years.

I dont know exact numbers but I can find them for you if you really want to know. but let me just throw out number to prove my point. at the beginning of grand canyon the top of the canyon is about 2000 feet. after about a few miles down the canyon, the top of the canyon increases to 2500 feet.
now in order for that river to start carving grand canyon, the river would have to flow uphill to get it started.

that's only if it was like that way from the very beginning... have you ever noticed that the banks of a river are typically higher at the mouth of a river?

deposits at the end of the canyon over millions of years caused that change

now if you are like me and believe a great flood created that canyon, there is no problem at all. plenty of water to carve grand canyon.

and why did it leave the rest of the area curiously untouched?

heck look at mars. there is very little water if any on that planet and it has canyons way bigger than grand canyon. people dont understand that a lot of water can make something like that in a matter of weeks. not millions of years.

....mars had water, it still does in a frozen form... and wind can cause erosion too...
the thing is that water CAN'T make somthing like that in a matter of weeks

It is written that the ancient Mexicans (Aztecs/Mayans) were giving the knowledge by the Gods to create the famous Calander that are infact accurate astronomical events. Even today, humans cannot solve this mystery even without the use of computers. So can someone tell me, do the Mexican Gods exist, or were the ancient Mexicans über-brainiacs?