Cheney Determined To Strike In US With Weapons of WMD This Summer

Originally posted by pavil
Huh? I assume you are referring to Afghanistan and Iraq. How was taking out the Taliban and going after A.Q. in Afghanistan was not in America's best interest?

while i (grudgingly) have to admit that going after al-qaeda and/or taliban *could* have worked out ... the way this war was conducted was (and is) conducted is a farce. everything except kabul is a danger zone, the us gov't is dealing with sweetheart drug dealing warlords like hekmatyar at will in order to keep up at least a weak illusion of stability, the afghan gov't has nothing to say anywhere outside the capitol, poppy / opium production is on a record high, the taliban are regrouping and being much more than a nuisance to the foreign troops, and al-qaeda is having good fun on the pakistan side ... and you're telling me this was even remotely a success??

Originally posted by pavilThey provided sanctuary for A.Q. and let them plot and execute the 9/11 attacks and would not give them up after 9/11.

which is what the pakistani tribal areas are doing now, the islamists in pakistan are biting musharraf badly in the butt (nice example for proxy games, the ISI's toons are biting them in the butt as the taliban bit the CIA), and you have no other option than supporting him anyway, despite the military dictator he is ... and when (not if) he falls, good luck to all of us with pakistan as a nuke power drowning in islamist turmoil.

Originally posted by pavilWhat would you have done on Sept. 12, 2001?

good question. if i was in the, admittedly, most difficult position of an us president, i might have done the same, but i might have talked with people actually *understanding* what was going on in that country since the fall of british rule. i might have tried to send in a force massive enough to actually *stabilize* the region. i might have force my coalition partners to actually *make good and pay* the dozens of bn of dollars that were promised. i might have avoided installing a weak puppet with a nice hat & cape as president in such a critical region.

Originally posted by pavilOne sided Pacifism is a sure ticket to getting yourself killed in an incorrectly judged situation. Taking down the Taliban and going after A.Q and it's supporters in the world is the right course of action IMO.

taliban is not down (while a-q admittedly is, but there's a heavy price paid seeing what is happening everywhere else in the world). going to a war and not doing it right - right meaning a plan for 10+ years in such a situation, including not only military but all around planning, not this slacking # - is worse than not going to war IMO.

Originally posted by pavilOn Iraq, in a Post 9/11 world, Saddam's regime would continue to pose problems for us.

oh really? moral problems (heh) or what kind of problems?

Originally posted by pavilTaking him down caused Libya to fess up and stop it's WMD programs as well, was that a bad thing in your eyes?

ofc not, but neither libya nor iraq had any meaningful projects, at the time of the war anyway. if you wanna see meaningful projects of enemy nations, see dprk, maybe iran, russia, ... in any case, there's no current country being a *real* threat to the usa (especially not regarding the u.s. sea hegemony), except maybe for russia.

Originally posted by pavilHistory will judge if it was a right or wrong decision to take Iraq's government down preemptively , way too early to definitively reach a conclusion yet. I know people with short attentions spans expect things to be wrapped up and pretty within a few years, but this will take time if it is to succeed.

history will especially judge if it was right to start these wars *without a goddamn long term vision, but only some #ing catchwords like "spreading democracy in the ME", "GWOT", "axis of evil".

sorry for the swearing btw

ps, if you're interested in the political history of afghanistan and pakistan, and the effects of british and us policy on it, i could recommend you a book on it ... you might not like the author's political view on it, but it still would be a very worthwile read as he was living very close to the clans in power.

Originally posted by pavilI know people with short attentions spans expect things to be wrapped up and pretty within a few years, but this will take time if it is to succeed.

agreed on that, but a long attention span needs to take into account things passed in the last 50 years, not only the things that might happen after an illusory "start from scratch" (which just doesn't exist in politics anyway).

Originally posted by Now_Then
I’m thinking if this is the case it's more likely to be a dirty bomb than a full on nuke blast. I say this because the massive amounts of dead would not be in their favour. A dirty bomb would have enough dead in the initial event, cause the wide spread fear and 'please lead us baaaa' feeling among the people, and lastly the big increases in long term illnesses like cancer - for which they can develop drugs and cures for, then dangle them in front of the people like a very expensive carrot. You guys over there don’t have an NHS like us over here.

And that just put another unsavoury thought in me noggin - the NHS is always walking a tightrope - a dirty bomb campaign over here would prob push it over the edge in time as all the after effects come to light.

Hmmm..I think the NHS went 'over the edge' long ago didn't it? Last time I wa in the UK, everyone kept telling me how underfunded and inept it was.

J.

Originally posted by Lamâshtu
while i (grudgingly) have to admit that going after al-qaeda and/or taliban *could* have worked out ... the way this war was conducted was (and is) conducted is a farce.

The Taliban were overthrown, A.Q. was hit hard and displaced from their sanctuary therea and forced into hiding. Overall it was successful. Using Afghan troops at Tora Bora, was a critical mistake, done maninly to avoid U.S. Casualties that the public (really Congress) wouldn't stomach. IMO we shoud have sent in our best units and done whatever was necessary to trap and destroy those at Tora Bora. We also should have set up a net of Troops at the Afghan/ Paki border where we would have anticipated them to retreat. Political considerations on troop casualties went ahead of sound Military decisions at Tora Bora.

which is what the pakistani tribal areas are doing now,

I agree, letting the Tribal areas alone without Paki or US activity in the region is stupid. We basically gave A.Q. a chance to regroup and reload. We must keep the pressure on them, denying them sanctuary anywhere. Pakistan must assert control over that region or else we will be forced to take it into our hands.

taliban is not down (while a-q admittedly is, but there's a heavy price paid seeing what is happening everywhere else in the world). going to a war and not doing it right - right meaning a plan for 10+ years in such a situation, including not only military but all around planning, not this slacking # - is worse than not going to war IMO.

The Taliban is most definetly down, but not out. I agree, we are waging these battles in a way that is just holding ground, not one that is going after the enemy. These are battles where we should be throttling the enemy since they are on the whole poorly trained, supplied and cannot sustain a single fight for longer than a day or two. But again we have politicians that are not willing to let the military do what they do best. We are having them be police and reconstruction corps when they should be taking the battle to the enemy. Let the UN police and rebuild (Too bad they cut and ran after one suicide bomb, wimps) , let our troops take out those opposing us. Our troops are hamstrung by our mission we have assigned them. Given an opportunity to strike a decisive blow against A.Q, I have no doubt they would be able to achieve that.

history will especially judge if it was right to start these wars *without a goddamn long term vision

As I have said History will judge. Having the US plop down a pretty massive army smack dab in the M.E. and it oil reserves might look much better 30-40 years from now. It is a risk, but inaction was an even greater risk IMO.

Originally posted by Lamâshtu
agreed on that, but a long attention span needs to take into account things passed in the last 50 years, not only the things that might happen after an illusory "start from scratch" (which just doesn't exist in politics anyway).

Precisely, that is why any changes that take place in the Middle East will go slower than say Germany and Italy after WWII. Those countries had a history before WWII of democracy and respect for rights (Free Press, Freedom of Religion, Women's rights ect) that doesn't exist in the M.E. for the most part. Progress there will be much slower and smaller in the same time frame.

Hey Reptoid Recptor, first you attack another poster for having lack of financial and economic expertise with this little jewel:

This is one of the reasons why I do NOT like ATS. Pseudo-economists, many of whom do not know much about economics at all foretell "crashes" because their conspiracy sites tell them of one. Will there be a huge recession? I don't doubt it. Will there be a crash so devastating that we will all be living on the streets eating out of garbage cans where the military will be our only option? Where the HELL did you get that? State some proof except from your own imaginings.

Then you go on to spew this mindless opinion in another post:

There are ways now that protect the economy from 1929-1930's conditions.

Facts please, show me what protection is in place to prevent the market from tanking....some links....your thesis perhaps?

I know our economy is in trouble and has been very badly mishandled, but your exaggerations are not needed.If you look through the past 30 years there have been big problems with inflation, unemployment and recessions and stock "crashes" (1980's, 2001). People lost everything, and it was a scary time, but we didn't have to eat out of garbage cans and live in card board boxes.

I would only have liked to see what you would have said during those times...that is if you were even old enough to have intelligent conversations.

Pot calls kettle black.....doesn't sound like YOU have a PhD in Economics. Just YOUR opinion. Based on my research, it is my conclusion that the Federal Reserve bank "allowed" the market to crash in the 30's and nothing would prevent them from "allowing" it again since it is still Illuminati controlled. It would sure take our minds off this hopeless Bush war.

Chew on this a bit and get back with me.

www.apfn.org...

Have a nice day.....kk

Originally posted by noangels2006
Afganistan is the forgotten war,and bloody well illegal too!Amazes me that we rational people of the world who far outweigh any blinkered warmongers in numbers cant do anything to bring Bush,Blair and co to justice!

Bush and Blair?
Don't you mean Bush, Blair, Harper, Balkenende, Howard, Rasmussen, Popescu-Tăriceanu, Sarkozy, Merkel, Stoltenberg, Clark, Silva, the organizations of the UN, and NATO?

Who among the 6 billion+ people in this world beside you is saying that it's illegal?
EVERY country in the world would have rightly done the same thing.

Bush and blair are to blaim for Irag,those two where the main people telling BIG lies.Bush is the one to blame for Afganistana

doesnt bother me at all sunshineThe rest of the world sees your leader as a muppet-and push comes to shove WE will smack you lot back down to size.Iraq and Afganistan have already done damage to your reputation-when you lot pull out its Goodbye super power war machine

mind you you might say you won it like nam

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Who among the 6 billion+ people in this world beside you is saying that it's illegal?
EVERY country in the world would have rightly done the same thing.

While I dont tow the line Afghan was illegial, the US had different means of attack.
The US government had a major opportunity when 911 occured. They could of ended finatical muslim mentality there and then had they of entered into dialouge, and achnowledged arab nations offers for humanity and togetherness.
Instead the US chose to bomb endlessly, then create a fake excuse for the illegial war in Iraq.
Yes, the ILLEGIAL war in Iraq.

Had we of divulged all our evidence against Osama to the Taliban, on their own recommendations they would of handed him over.
Why didnt we do this?
Maybe because our evidence against Osama is so paper thin, they wouldnt of bought it?.. much like the public dont buy it.

Wether Afghan was a fair fight or not, the US lost all credability and respect when it fired on Iraq in the name of corporate greed.
Everything else becomes null and void, until your governemnt admits what its done, and until they are prosecuted and executed.

[edit on 25-7-2007 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
This is one of the reasons why I do NOT like ATS. Pseudo-economists, many of whom do not know much about economics at all foretell "crashes" because their conspiracy sites tell them of one. Will there be a huge recession? I don't doubt it. Will there be a crash so devastating that we will all be living on the streets eating out of garbage cans where the military will be our only option? Where the HELL did you get that? State some proof except from your own imaginings.

Seems people who do know of economics are announcing some serious days ahead retinoid.

As New Zealand monetary reformer William Hugh McGunnigle wrote recently on an internet discussion site, “Basically today we are attempting to run a 21st century economy using financial tools that are five centuries out of date. It is like trying to control a sophisticated modern jumbo jet using the control mechanisms appropriate to the machines of World War I. The whole system is unstable, and the larger it becomes the more likely it is that it will collapse, simply because those controlling it have no inclination to prevent that collapse. We have learned nothing from the financial disaster of 1929-1934.”

Things are accelerating too quick for the economy

The U.S. current account deficit, they point out, continues to plunge, heading toward the $900 billion mark, almost nine percent of GDP. U.S. household debt as a percentage of personal income has shot up almost thirty-five percent since 2000. While real income stagnates for the U.S. middle class, asset and commodity prices are surging, with gasoline prices leading the way and the Goldman Sachs Commodity Index doubling since 2001. Financing in the business world is increasingly shaky, with loans to companies with “junk” credit ratings soaring from under $50 billion a year in 2001 to over $200 billion in 2006.

www.globalresearch.ca...

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Seems people who do know of economics are announcing some serious days ahead retinoid.

If you read my post again, I said I am not denying we are not in bad economic shape. I took all my money out of the stock market around 1.5 months ago because I think it is due for a major correction and is going to tank soon. My problem is with your enormous exaggerations (and others on here) to paint "vivid" pictures in people's minds because you read it on some site or another that it shall be this way or that.

That is the beef I have with you and others on here.

By the way...globalresearch? Don't make me laugh. If you find something on the economist, cnbc, bloomberg then post it.

Poeple who think impeachment will solve all our problems are highly incorrect.Wether it be the Iraq war,police state,or anything else everyone blames on Bush.

If we impeach Bush and you honestly believe in the nwo and all that,its almost a promised that the next president would also be nwo.If we impeach its certain the president next in office would pull our troops out.
In the this case the terrorists(wich are very real wether you think Bush created them or not) will surely follow us home.

Poeple say they would do that anyway...I say well it has'nt happend in 6 years so Bush is doing something right.Basically our soldiers are a lot easier to harm since they are in the terrorist home town.This is pretty much keeping us safe atm,but they will have a lot more leisure time to plan and carry out many attacks on the US wether it be from cells already here or not.

Impeachment may stop this administrations efforts to be a dictator but i doubt it will stop the next.Because if you truly believe in the nwo and truly believe they are so powerfull then the next president will surely be nwo.

I don't see anyway to stop the nwo from seeing their dreams come true.Write all the letters you want,but i think your foolish if you think your accomplishing anything.

I think the only way to stop them is by force,because if you truly believe in the nwo then you must truly believe they run everything in the show.So impeach and vote for who you want,but if the nwo exists the things you consider accomplishments is a mere small delay in their plans.

Originally posted by Project_Silo


Impeachment may stop this administrations efforts to be a dictator but i doubt it will stop the next.Because if you truly believe in the nwo and truly believe they are so powerfull then the next president will surely be nwo.

Sorry, but this is not a brilliant statement. We can stop the next and the next and the next. WE ARE THE PEOPLE OF THE USA AND WE WANT FREEDOM AND DEMAND IT.

These schmocks forget they work for US. We do not work for THEM.

dgtempe
haha keep dreaming my friend keep dreaming.your line of thought may have accomplished something years and years ago.But with todays goverment and all these news laws being put in place everday,and the vetos your statement is not very brilliant.

Your statement fits the old America,demand all you want in todays America,I'll be sure to give u some coffee when i see you outside the white house for months untill you finally just go back home.

They did'nt forget they work for us,they just don't care lol....Go ahead and change it I'll even back you.Hell ill stand at the whitehouse for months with you also,but when winter comes im heading back home.Oh wait we can't protest infront of the whitehouse,we have to be at least 15 miles away or whatever the hell it is.

Tell them they are our servents,tell them they work for us,and enjoy your automated response.Go to them on crucial matters,again enjoy your automated response.

Believe me im 100% with you on your statement,but i know there is thousands and thousands who feel like you and i.Yet what has been accomplished?Don't say not enough try because look at poeple liek alex jones,hell type 911 into yourtube and enjoy your pick of 09128 movies about this whole deal.

I'm not saying we shouldnt try,but we need to find the right thing to try,clearly going about this legally and protesting is doing nothing.Bush wont let poeple trestify in court.They wont release tapes and other information.It's never ending,we are losing our power and we will continue to lose it.

Hell according to the new law passed a few days ago our asssests can be froze for our protesting.

Good times, good times

[edit on 25-7-2007 by Project_Silo]

Project,

While you are correct that nobody gives a damn if we take the attitude that since they dont give a damn, we should throw up our arms and have the i give up attitude is not very healthy. Hmm?

What do you say we fight for what should be ours? Doesnt that sound just beautiful? Or should we give these clowns the power of dictatorship, because, well, its gonna happen anyway???

Old fashioned? maybe. Is it old fashioned to want freedom and liberty?
Or is that out of style now?

Give me liberty or give me death and i have the feeling death will come first because over my dead body will i not fight for my freedoms.

If you read my post i stated many times i believe we should fight.I just don't know how.Again like i said the legal process does'nt work when the president fashions bills to fit his needs and such.

I never once saide don't fight.Never ever stop fighting,but i refuse to fight a fight that will get me no where.I'd rather put that energy into finding how we can over come what we face as a nation,and i have yet to come up with anything.

We would need the whole nation to wake up.You don't find hear the information most of us know unless you search for it.So much is emitted by the media,and so so many will not believe what you say unless they see it there.....

Again i never ever said give up and i never will.And believe me i don't need the jargan on liberty or death and such,im a very very patriotic guy,i have a flag tattoo on my arm.It looks like i was clawed by a bear and instead of muscle and tendons and such inside the gashes its a flag.I'm just feeling helpless,and well frankly i am....

[edit on 25-7-2007 by Project_Silo]

Well, dang, if you have a flag tatoo you must be patriotic. I wear a "bring our troops home" sticker on my butt.

We are both on the same page but different paragraphs. I understand the frustration of not being able to do anything. I'm sitting here helpless also.
What can i do? Who will listen? Who do i call? Do i go downtown Hyannis and wear a sandwich board calling for Bush's head? How long will i last on main street?

But part of me says fight- somehow- fight. Just like if i was told i had a terminal illness, i will fight this with all my heart and soul. Its not practical, but psychologically, i must fight.

Someone should hang Nancy Pelosi by her elongated earlobes and strip her of all her makeup. That gutless wonder.
(just a thought) That would be a beginning, wouldnt it. That NWO whore should be dethroned immediatly. That would be a good start.

Anyway, i do agree with you- in a sense.

you knocking my tattoo brought you to a new low.and im done arguing because you dont adress the issues at hand. and you still havent adressed them,such as impeaching will do nothing.so kep talking on ats and think that makes you patriotic.go volunteer go do something usefull.

im sorry you cannot hold a conversation.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor

I took all my money out of the stock market around 1.5 months ago because I think it is due for a major correction and is going to tank soon.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa...The market is at an all time high. You probably missed out on a huge windfall. While I too have converted to "safer" investments and diversified, I wouldn't pull "all" my money out ever. Long term history still shows long term gains.

And to think you make fun of others for lack of economic, financial and investment prowess. BTW, how is the Pinto running these days?

My problem is with your enormous exaggerations (and others on here) to paint "vivid" pictures in people's minds because you read it on some site or another that it shall be this way or that.

That is the beef I have with you and others on here.

By the way...globalresearch? Don't make me laugh. If you find something on the economist, cnbc, bloomberg then post it.

I have not seen you post any links to support YOUR claims. Nor did you respond to my prior post regarding Federal Reserve.

Regards...kk