The Douglas Bader Mystery

Erm, just gently stepping back into this...

Originally posted by SPM.45
On the other points, in brief:
1: Supposition. Army officers - not unusual as many places were requisitioned or turned over to the military. Where is he? People do vanish, therefore not proof.

Not in and of itself, no. But you have heard of "building a pattern of behaviour", yes?

2: Proves nothing.

Without researching it, you can't definitively say that.

3: Again, proves nothing.

Again, without researching it, you can't definitively say that. It is proof if it shows a pattern of behaviour that supports the idea of something "spooky" going on.

4: But you have no proof of Giles activities and this proves nothing in relation to Bader.

That's right. No proof. But sometimes a lack of evidence is itself evidence, as the tennant of 221B Baker St proved with the dog that didn't bark. Again, pattern of behaviour.

So in totallity, we are at the same place. You have nothing on Bader, but a few shadows that might relate to the Stork hotel but no way of linking the place with the man. Sorry Ken but that's not gilt edged. I find the case unproven.

You are awfully quick on the trigger there, SPM. You don't think that it might, just possibly, be wise to reserve judgement on things you haven't yet investigated yourself?

Is it not possible that one of those shadows relating to the Stork Hotel might be able to link (or definitively not link) the place with the man?

Originally posted by thebozeian I myself have had a VERY scary conversation with an old "Digger" from WWII, that if true would rewrite the R&D history of chemical warfare and that the entire story surrounding the shipment of the atomic bombs to Japan was faked! Strange thing is I have seen other testimony over the years to corroborate some of these claims. Would you believe it if I told you that Australia was the leader in chemical and biological warfare research prior to and during WWII?

LEE.

We still are mate. The only way we have to even up the odds if the near north come swimming down to us.

The "Apollo Hoax" version of the Atom Bombs of WW2 has been around ever since they dropped- and it was Australian POWs in Japan who first started the outside story off when they reported NOT seeing what they were meant to see when the bomb dropped.

Likewise the Nazi A-Bomb stuff and other things from the secret (but by no means necessarily untrue) history of WW2.

reply to post by RNM1945


I find it amusing, sir, that the same user here who has come close to defaming you in quotation and soiled your character excuses this and worse behaviour in his hero DB... Two standards in the sunset.

reply to post by SPM.45


SPM45 has shown his true colours he DOES NOT want to research my experiences because he does not know where to start and cannot stand the thought of something being revealed that upsets his warped image of the great man. So he can do nothing but dismiss everthing I have to say because he believes he is omnipotent when in fact he is just another Wannabe. This is all just a repeat perfomance of his anonymous cowardice on the Aviation Forum where he is known as WEBILOT

Somebody please find the report on how Bader prevented Alex Ross being repatriated as he was, as Bader described him, "My Lackey." Find details of how Ross had to bathe him and carry him up and down steps at Colditz and dress his lstumps and help him PUT HIS LEGS ON as I DID! And how Bader snubbed Ross after the war - IT IS ALL THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.

Finally SPM45, in a recent post of yours the real reason for your attacks on me came out - You have a form of "Penis Envy" when you said that you also served in "another war" and probably had more interesting experiences than I did - SO WHAT? Go write a book about it all.

I am finding that this Forum appears to be populated by Wimps who stand by and watch some utterly self engrossed anonymous clown attacking someone who served his country and who has an extraordinary story to relate, so now I am doing to do my block and suggest that the whole lot of you including this fool who will eventually be proven to be a right tosser all go jump in the nearest lake.

Enjoy your cowardly anonymity and go find someone else to play silly games with - I am, as they say, out of here.

Kenneth Williams (a very saddend British citizen)

But you have heard of "building a pattern of behaviour", yes?

Sure, but in turn you'll also be aware of the phrase "building castles of sand"!

Is it not possible that one of those shadows relating to the Stork Hotel might be able to link (or definitively not link) the place with the man?

It's possible, of course. But despite Ken's digging, he's not found one substantial, verifiable link between the stork and MI - just hints, and even if that is accepted, there's still no evidence whatsoever that Bader was there. So it's quite a step to make.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by SPM.45]

Originally posted by DogHead
reply to post by RNM1945

 

I find it amusing, sir, that the same user here who has come close to defaming you in quotation and soiled your character excuses this and worse behaviour in his hero DB... Two standards in the sunset.

No heroes, and no defamation. Simply the truth.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by SPM.45]

Originally posted by RNM1945
reply to post by SPM.45

 

SPM45 has shown his true colours he DOES NOT want to research my experiences because he does not know where to start and cannot stand the thought of something being revealed that upsets his warped image of the great man. So he can do nothing but dismiss everthing I have to say because he believes he is omnipotent when in fact he is just another Wannabe. This is all just a repeat perfomance of his anonymous cowardice on the Aviation Forum where he is known as WEBILOT

Somebody please find the report on how Bader prevented Alex Ross being repatriated as he was, as Bader described him, "My Lackey." Find details of how Ross had to bathe him and carry him up and down steps at Colditz and dress his lstumps and help him PUT HIS LEGS ON as I DID! And how Bader snubbed Ross after the war - IT IS ALL THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.

Finally SPM45, in a recent post of yours the real reason for your attacks on me came out - You have a form of "Penis Envy" when you said that you also served in "another war" and probably had more interesting experiences than I did - SO WHAT? Go write a book about it all.

I am finding that this Forum appears to be populated by Wimps who stand by and watch some utterly self engrossed anonymous clown attacking someone who served his country and who has an extraordinary story to relate, so now I am doing to do my block and suggest that the whole lot of you including this fool who will eventually be proven to be a right tosser all go jump in the nearest lake.

Enjoy your cowardly anonymity and go find someone else to play silly games with - I am, as they say, out of here.

Kenneth Williams (a very saddend British citizen)

Sadly, Ken shows he cannot debate serious points but expects people to cowtow to him.


The various slurs and lies in that last post from RNM, I will not dignify with a response, with one exception. I have a copy of the Alec Ross writings here in my records, and there is no mention of helping with Bader's legs.






[edit on 9-1-2008 by SPM.45]

Originally posted by SPM.45

Originally posted by DogHead
reply to post by RNM1945

 

I find it amusing, sir, that the same user here who has come close to defaming you in quotation and soiled your character excuses this and worse behaviour in his hero DB... Two standards in the sunset.

No heroes, and no defamation. Simply the truth.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by SPM.45]

Truth in this thread is irrelevant because it is not in any sense an objective real truth but instead a subjective set of assumptions of what constitute facts. I am also aghast that in my short time so far as a member of ATS this is the third time a direct witness has been treated with to put it mildly discourtesy by armchair experts. Far out.

Originally posted by DogHead


Truth in this thread is irrelevant because it is not in any sense an objective real truth but instead a subjective set of assumptions of what constitute facts. I am also aghast that in my short time so far as a member of ATS this is the third time a direct witness has been treated with to put it mildly discourtesy by armchair experts. Far out.

You'll note, I hope, that I have not at any point treated RNM with any discourtesy, despite the notable lack of courtesy coming in the opposite direction! I have however established that the witness has clearly embroidered his accounts and is therefore questionable as a "direct witness".

For information, the obit of Alec (sic) Ross can be found here complete with ots lack of any reference to helping put legs on, but confirming Bader's attitude towards Ross:

www.telegraph.co.uk...;sessionid=DOACGCQPOGUHJQFIQMFSNAGAVCBQ0JVC?xml=/news/2003/09/23/db2302.xml


To answer the points Ken made:

Somebody please find the report on how Bader prevented Alex Ross being repatriated as he was, as Bader described him, "My Lackey."
Correct.

Find details of how Ross had to bathe him
Incorrect. "After placing Bader in the bath he would wait outside, until it was time to lift him out of the bath and on to a stool to dry himself".

and carry him up and down steps at Colditz
Correct

and dress his lstumps and help him PUT HIS LEGS ON as I DID!
Incorrect - "When Bader's original left leg broke down, he was walking - on parole - in the countryside. Ross had been brought out under armed guard with the spare left leg. Bader, who had secreted thin bags of oatmeal, which he had traded for cigarettes, inside his trousers, did not want to be found out, and therefore proceeded to change his leg behind a bush".

And how Bader snubbed Ross after the war -
Correct.

IT IS ALL THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.

It certainly is, and as can be seen it directly contradicts elements of Ken's story.



[edit on 9-1-2008 by SPM.45]

Mr WEBPILOT is again being VERY selective in what he "finds" and publishes to this lame Duck of a Forum. Given that he really believes that he spent every minute of every hour of every day during the war with DB and knows his every movement it is a pathetic job that he does.

Someone else please go and find the obituary in the SCOTSMAN newspaper, the one that really counts, not one selected by WEBPILOT.

And whilst you are at it, search and find the statement made by Alex Ross that he knew NOTHING about and was not involved in this fantasy episode with DB having his legs stuffed with oatmeal - Come on WEBPILOT, if such a silly yarn was repored in TIME magazine you would be amongst the first to attempt to debunk it - and why not find those TIME magazine reported gems of episodes in the life of DB and publish THEM here too?

Also if you have copied my FULL Trilogy find the photo of Alex Ross posing with one of my senior researchers for 3 years! Lots of meat there but NEVER to be published.

WEBPILOT, the longer you continue to attempt to prove that I am wrong and you are right the worse it is going to get for you when ther truth is out. You are going to look and will be/are a right pillock!

You are besotted with a man who was hated by as many people who admired him - he had SERIOUS faults and had I am afraid, oxymoronic feet of clay as you my silly man have no oxymoronic legs to stand on.

You keep on bleating that you know it ALL and I am lying and you are claiming that you have proved your pointless point, so given that you believe that you have won the 'battle" why are you still hanging around?

Finally if you and your idiotic arguments are to have the slightest weight. you MUST tell us who you are and what war YOU served in and in what capacity as I think you are just some poor wannabe hiding behind your obvious cowardice.

And in conclusion the only sources I can recall you quoting are from the book "REACH FOR THE SKY" that has been, as you know, debunked by another AVIATION FORUM crank DILIP SARKAR MBE self styled expert on all things Royal Airforce during WWII who claimed the book was just written to make money and has no historical value whatsoever - Go find his statement and publish it here if you have any guts at all.

And would you please stop sending me all this junk E-mail on Viagra, Penis enhancments and Canadian prescription drugs. I KNOW it is you and you cannot prove otherwise so please stop this childish practice it annoys me.

When you have some real facts and real evidence let me know. I have ALWAYS stated that I cannot substantiate (at the moment) my claim of being involved with DB - so what else do you want me to do?

Don't call me, I'll call you.

Kenneth Williams, and not afraid to say so!

For someone that has said three times that they are "out of here", it seems that this is another asssertion of yours that holds about as much water as any other.

The question here is the identity of the man in the Stork, and one which despite your many comments you have still failed to show _could_ be Bader, let alone _was_ Bader. By the way, you're still wrong about this Wedpilot thing, but gettting people's identity right isn't your strong suit, is it?!

As has been shown with utter clarity, Bader did not need help dressing nor to walk with a stick, both of which mark the man you met from Bader. Until you can come up with more than half truths, innuendo and outright inventions, your story will continue to be greeted with disbelief.

These are the real facts, not the inventions about Barracudas or Bader nor the possiblities of someone in the Stork being in MI which you cannot verify at basic level, quite apart from link to Bader! There are many sources, other than those quoted (and not just Reach for the Sky, which as I have previously pointed out is somewhat a hagiography and needs to be treated with some care, though not dismissed out of hand), and these all point to the same characteristics. Why should only the Scotsman "really" count? Because it omits something that shoots your story down, I guess. The other sources cannot be so easily dismissed as you would wish however - the Scotsman does not contradict the others, it simply does not report the facts to your liking and as for the Time article you have quoted, this is clearly a tale rather suffering from journalistic hubris and therefore to be treated with some care.

There are many sources both textual and photograhic and they all tell of a man that walked without a stick, even into his old age. As I have said _repeatedly_, Bader was a flawed man, as Al Deere said of him, "if he wasn't pig headed, he wouldn't be here". So - hero? Hardly. That's another KW assertion that doesn't stack up!

Bottom line, you can't show that my doubts are unreasonable and making silly suggestions about email spam further discredits you - can't "win" the argument so you just throw abuse - just as I pointed out to Waynos all those posts back.



[edit on 10-1-2008 by SPM.45]

Amazing what you can do WEBPILOT when you want to - The SPAM has suddenly ceased again this morning and for that at least, I thank you!

Oh! and you have my full agreement to ask the Admiralty or MOD or whom ever needs to be asked to give you full details of the incidents leading up to the crash landing of a Fairey Barracuda in Shanghai as related in my Trilogy and in which I was a passenger with boots soaked in leaking hydraulic fluid. This should once and for all prove who is telling the truth here chum. So don't delay, DO IT NOW! Do you want to have a large wager on the outcome? How about ten thousand Quid?

Once you have all the FACTS please publish here ASAP followed by yet another apology for your personal and endless vendetta against an 84 year old War Veteran who has no reason to make up spurious stories. And, whilst you are at it, why not use the freedom of information act and ask MOD for details of Baders short sojourn in Liverpool in 1942?

Go on, be a Devil and ask them! It's time you started finding meaningful facts and stopped relying upon "accepted historical fact" and what other people have written - There really is no subsitute for being there, is there?

Kenneth Williams

Originally posted by RNM1945
Amazing what you can do WEBPILOT when you want to - The SPAM has suddenly ceased again this morning and for that at least, I thank you!

Oh! and you have my full agreement to ask the Admiralty or MOD or whom ever needs to be asked to give you full details of the incidents leading up to the crash landing of a Fairey Barracuda in Shanghai as related in my Trilogy and in which I was a passenger with boots soaked in leaking hydraulic fluid. This should once and for all prove who is telling the truth here chum. So don't delay, DO IT NOW! Do you want to have a large wager on the outcome? How about ten thousand Quid?

Once you have all the FACTS please publish here ASAP followed by yet another apology for your personal and endless vendetta against an 84 year old War Veteran who has no reason to make up spurious stories. And, whilst you are at it, why not use the freedom of information act and ask MOD for details of Baders short sojourn in Liverpool in 1942?

Go on, be a Devil and ask them! It's time you started finding meaningful facts and stopped relying upon "accepted historical fact" and what other people have written - There really is no subsitute for being there, is there?

Kenneth Williams

Nice try Ken, but your juvenile slurs are water off a ducks back. The same meaningful _facts_ remain that you try to ignore. Bader didn't use a stick, didn't need help to dress. Accepted fact? No, documented and verified. All your obsfucation cannot dismiss these facts. Find me just one photo of Bader with a stick and maybe you might begin to build a case, but as it stands you still have zip. Being there is clearly not that much help, eh?

GOTCHA by the short and curlies WEBPILOT/et al. When you have read what is to follow even you will have to stop, think, think some more and scratch your head!

First YOU SHOW ME images of Bader moving or still, walkng down a flight of stairs or steps with or sans a stick or any help - NONE EXIST!!! HE COULD NOT DO IT!!!

Now here is something for all to think about and decide once and for all that my claims about meeting Bader in Liverpool in 1942 are not only possible but are in fact damn well authentic.

EXTRACT FROM LONDON TIMES September 15th 2003

"But in 1942 he (ALEX ROSS) was sent to a prison camp in Lamsdorf, Germany, where he was detailed to look after Wing Commnader Bader, beginning a ten day spell in solitary confinement for trying to escape."

Lets us say again. "Wing Commander Bader beginning a ten day spell in solitary confinement for trying to escape"

"On completion of his period in "solitary", Bader was warned that he was to be moved to Oflag IVC - Colditz Castle in Saxony. Ross offered to accompany him, but Bader told him that it would not be possible as Colditz was a "bad boys' camp". Nonetheless, at four the next morning Ross carried Bader's bags on to a train for the journey. They arrived at Colditz railway station after dark on AUGUST 16, 1942 etc etc."

Now consider this, Lamsdorf was an "other ranks" camp and it always worried me as to why Bader was there. He was in fact billeted in the camp's small sick bay away from the "hoi polloi" so to speak. I have a statement from the army medic who looked after him confirming this among other things.

Bader's apparent silly and "foiled" attempt to steal an aircraft from the nearby Lufwaffe airstrip that was mainly used by Junkers JU whatever's a Dakota like 3 engined transport aircraft, turns out to be very convenient in this complex co-operation between the Germans and the British to spirit Bader over to England for a few days to, as I am still favouring, getting measured and or fitted with new legs - or whatever else he went there for.

So now we set the scene, Bader and the Germans set up a phoney escape attempt that was widely reported around the camp and the "captured" Bader is paraded through the camp in embarrased disgrace it would appear, then he is thrown into the "slammer" for 10 days where no one could see him or talk to him, not even dear Alex.

I am now claiming that Bader did not go into the "slammer" for 10 days but was moved under heavy cover at night to the nearby airstrip for the fist leg of his journey over to the UK. No one at Lamsdorf believed other than that he was in the "slammer" and all those "heavies" at Colditz knew little or nothing of his wherabouts and so the window of opportunity is neatly and cleverly established.

After his brief time in the UK, and I can now say with certainty that he had to have been at the Stork sometime during the first part of August 1942! I was employed there from February until November 1942 so no problems about wrong dates or persons!

So, he then "returnd" to LAMSDORF where he was put into the "slammer" overnight and next day appeared liberated after his sentnece for all to see and on August 16th left Lamsdorf in the morning and arrived at Colditz that night with NO ONE ANY THE WISER!!!

I also have a description by an ex Lamsdorf prisoner that tells of Bader's usual theatrical performance when leaving or arriving at POW camps and my informant mentioned casually that Bader looked very smart in his uniform and was wearing a BRAND NEW cap! Did the Lufwaffe keep a stock of such items? I think not.

So Mr. WEBPILOT what do you make of that lot? Of course you will say it is a fiction and my imagination running wild - Oh! to have such an imagination - what books I could have written. But remember that truth is invariably stranger than fiction is it not?

I rest my case.

Kenneth Williams

No Ken, there is no "gotcha" there, though I am glad you have moved back to some debate on this. There are no photos of Bader using a stick but there is plenty of _film_ showing him walking _without_ stick. You might care to look out a copy of Grp Capt Sir Douglas Bader, an inspiration in photos, by Dilip Sakar, the historian who you abused earlier in which the cover shot shows him on the wing of a Spitfire, and entering the cockpit unassisted. The book contains many other shots of him in various settings, with no stick to be seen in any. One of my fellow researchers was at a Battle of Britain dance at Bentley Priory with Bader and can vouch for Bader using the staircase there, unaided and without stick. This was the night that he danced with the Queen Mother (and was photographed so doing). You might also look out the German notice on an escaped POW that describes him as "walks well without a stick" - thought I guess you'll suggest this is part of the conspiracy!

This basic flaw in your case holes it right from the start - as the saying has it, elimate the impossible and what is left must be the truth however improbable - therefore all your ideas about Lamsdorf and so on fall away.

Here is one vital question - how can you be _certain_ that the man was Bader given that the only clue you had at the time was being told it was him. How do you _know_ this was not a jape?

As I expected just a lot of envy generated bile and venom in your response to an unassailable explanation of how Bader was moved to England in August 1942 when I attended to him as I constanlty have to hammer into the heads of blithering idiots like you who have obviously not read or understand the circumstances of the Bader Enigma quest and no doubt, don't want to!

I believe not one word of your being present at some imaginary dance where DB perhaps demonstrated his skills at cartwheeling too? As for you pal Dilip Sarkar he is a nobody in the REAL scheme of things!

By their very nature, clandestine operations rely on a complete lack of evidence, or didn't you know that?

I am now getting bored stiff with your one eyed and blinkered views on the history of Douglas Bader so suggest you go back to the Aviation Forum and all those wind-up rubber band balsa wood Spitfires.

Have a nice day.

PS

How did I know that the man I met (at least you concede that I met someone!) was indeed Douglas Bader?

You are right! It was a jape as you call it. All these seriously involved MI whatever types had so little to do that they all ganged up on me and decided to dig up some poor legless guy with identical amputations to DB and his absolute double then bring to the Stork as a big joke on Ken Williams.

ARE YOU SERIOUS CHUM or are you completely away with the birds?

Oh dear, I see we're back to the anger. There is no "envy" or any bile in any of my posts, that is plain to anyone, and if you would read more carefully you will see that I did not state that I was at a dance with Bader, but that an associate was. This is direct witness testimony, of the sort that you would have us accept, and in this case there can be no doubt as to Bader's identity, or presence, as he was photographed at the occasion, dancing with the QM. This is documented, verified fact, Ken, and try as you might it cannot be dismissed out of hand.

It seems therefore that your entire story hangs on the fact that the man you saw could not manage stairs on his own, as you say above. Well, therefore, clearly this is the smoking gun. We know that Bader could manage stairs, the steep, tight, worn spiral stairs at Colditz excepted, which are hard going even for someone with good legs, and we even know how he managed stairs - going up he needed the handrail to pull himself up, going down he had to "dot and carry". All your bluster and wild theories about MI, secret missions or whatever fall away in the face of this glaring fact. In all the testimony relating to Bader from friend, foe or whoever, there is only one person that relates Bader walked with a stick, yourself. Not one other person has ever done so. Evidence may not be available in clandestine ops, but reason still prevails and the traces may be reviewed.

These are the facts that are "unassailable", not some half baked tale of clandestine operation that falls at the first hurdle.

Predictably you miss the point of a jape being played - not that this was cooked up for your benefit, but a double amputee that needed assistance was staying at the Stork and the staff decided to play a joke on the young lad - this is not anything unusual - send the lad to the stores to get a left handed screwdriver or a long weight, that sort of thing. This is an entirely plausible explanation. Your later phone call with Bader does not exclude this as there is no guarantee that Bader either understood what you said to him or that hi didn't just say "yes I remember you" to get rid of an unwanted caller. The fact that you cannot even consider that this might be a possibility shows us that you are not prepared to consider this in rational terms and that must cloud your judgement, and thereby your veracity. With every wild eyed denial you make yourself less and less credible.



[edit on 11-1-2008 by SPM.45]

I just cannot let this lot go without some comment.

So your whole "case" against me now revolves around whether or not Bader can dance, walk up and down stairs, perfom somersaults and escape and be caught a 100 miles later walking toward the sea. (TIME magazine 1941) without any assistance.

When Bader was seen doing all this walking and dancing you speak of without sticks, was this like, during the war or at some later time after the war when his legs had been replaced yet again and his injuries recovered from?

Now when I saw Bader, and helped him he had just come from Germany and had been suffering many problems with his injured stumps and what remained of his metal legs.

Now I don't know if I saw him at the start of his visit or at the end but let us assume either way. I was so not concerned about the state of his legs and I thought him being there was of no consequence, so is it not conceivable that as he had so many problems that he was NOT ABLE to negotiate the STEEP stairs at the Stork on his own and briefly used sticks?
I was never asked to carry him or anything like that.

Secondly, as when I saw him he was using a Sam Browne like harness, is it not possible in your simple mind that he may have had NEW legs fitted and would have NEEDED the harness initially to break them in and get used to them as he did with his first set then eventually discarded the harness?

You of course would not have thought about that aspect as you do NOT want to believe under any circumstances that Bader came back, why, I do not know but if all it needs for you to agree that Bader was there is for me to say that he did not use sticks to come down the stairs at the Stork Hotel so be it, it's no skin of my nose as I met him sticks or no sticks.

So now if I tell you he did not use sticks is that REALLY enough for you to accept my story? Again I ask you Chum - ARE YOU REALLY FOR REAL or away with the birds?

Sticks or no sticks, harness or no harness Douglas Bader WAS in Liverpool in August 1942 and no amount of baiting, ridicule or downright bastardry is ever going to change the indisputable fact that it all happened the way I claim - So get used to it Chum, it's going be big, big news one day!

You can go now and play with your Balss wood spitfire.

Kenneth Williams