The Douglas Bader Mystery

Oh Dear!,

SPM40 aka WEBPILOT has been hung by his own Petard as you might say!

He has made a SHOCKER of a boo boo and I quietly went along with it. He did not see his mistake, so now I will prove to all and sundry that this man mainly talks through his escape hatch!

SPM old chap, will you tell me and the Forum members just who is this person "DOLLY" that you speak of?

And speaking of courts of law, I invite you or who ever to put me in the witness box on oath and give me the third degree, but I can tell you that my story and or testimony WILL NEVER CHANGE! How on Earth can it possibly change - I ask you!

And dear Moderator from LA (My step-daughter lives there and is a film producer) Please if you can, check out the AVIATION FORUM, look for posts by WEBPILOT aka SPM45 and just be amazed at the way this man has endlessly defamed my reputation and character.

KW (A real person)

Further slurs, none of which amount to a row of beans. The only person issuing abuse is yourself Ken, all I have asked are reasonable questions to which you have no answer other then more schoolboy tantrums.

Clearly Ken, you cannot see that the petard hoists yourself further with every heave of the rope. Dolly's name has been given here and should it be required to disturb further an old lady's peace I am sure that it would be perfectly simple to trace her.

Ken, you continually flap about trying to hold onto the loose end of ropes in the whirlwind that you created, but you cannot answer the one fundamental question - how can you be certain that this was Bader - beyond "I know", which is no proof. The answer is that you cannot. Therefore all else is assumption and fillibuster.

Bader was no mystery - he was a POW 1941-45. QED.



[edit on 11-2-2008 by SPM.45]

SPM 45

"Clearly Ken, you cannot see that the petard hoists yourself further with every heave of the rope. Dolly's name has been given here and should it be required to disturb further an old lady's peace I am sure that it would be perfectly simple to trace her."

Until you can tell the Forum who indeed DOLLY is and where her name "has been given here", I can find no mention of "DOLLY", you are beginning to more and more look like someone who has wandered into another Timeline old son! Getting confused perhaps?

It is now YOUR job to perform the "perfectly simple" task of tracing her and obtaining answers to all the questions I have put to her and her BBC "interviewer." Trace her and get a verifiable statement and obtain references about her time at the Stork Hotel that leaves NO doubt that she worked there in 1942 and, I will see to it that you both get a substantial reward for your efforts- Maybe even an apperance in a documentary. Now old son, cut the rhetoric , stop wallowing around and do something constructive for once in your life.

GO FIND DOLLY!!! Perhaps you are thinking of another Forum?

KW

Ken,

Oh dear, did I remember the name wrong? Fair enough, but I've never claimed to be perfect! So yes, it was Ruby rather than Dolly, but you clearly knew full well to whom I referred and it makes no substantive difference to the point. You expect everyone to accept your own _completely unverified_ account that you met Bader, however when you are presented with any evidence that suggests your story is false, you then insist that only full details are acceptable! Hoist by your own veritable petard indeed.

This is just one of the many inconsistencies that so riddles your account that it resembles less a mystery than a bit of Swiss cheese.



SPM.45



[edit on 11-2-2008 by SPM.45]

So, SPM40 it is perfectly alright for YOU to have lapses of memory or concentration in conducting your futile war against me but not for me in JUST two cases.

For example, for me to ACTUALLY have seen a German bomber being shot down over Liverpool in broad daylight and to be witness to perhaps what was the first or one of the first concentrated rocket barrages fired at incoming German bombers from across the Mersey in Wallesy during the Blitz on Liverpool?

So I got my dates very slighty mixed up, not inexcusable as I did not keep a day to day diary. However the main thrust is that I did witness these events, a claim that you and your mate from the Channel Isles have constantly used in attacks against the authenticity of many of my stories including meeting DB in 1942.

You should now go away and sit in a dark room for a month to reflect that one Swallow does not make a spring. Then ponder upon why it is that despite all your rhetoric you have never produced ONE IOTA of concrete evidence to prove your claims that Bader was a POW from 1941 to 1945 other than that is what is written in the "official" history books, a history that you were NEVER part of and I WAS!
I still try to find the evidence despite obstacles put up by fanatics like you who can only quote "recorded" history- Someone once said that history is a convenience agreed to by all!

I watched last night a documentary on the first landing on the Moon that was built entirely upon NEW evidence and OFFICIAL evidence released now after 40 years that puts a totally different slant on the whole affair - Think about it chum, when the REAL history of your hero Douglas Bader is released you are going to be run out of town for what you have done and are still doing to me, a genuine veteran of those war years and a particpant in one small but special part of history still to be revealed.

So [Mod Edit] go off now and find Dolly or Ruby and the man from The Planet of the Apes and when you have completed this mission and have INDUSPUTABLE evidence that Ruby or Dolly not only exists but it can proved beyond a shadow of doubt that she was at the Stork when I was and that her strory is not just a fantasy, you will be worthy of further attention from and discussion with me.

Kenneth Williams (a bright as a button 84+ year old!!!)



[Mod Edit: Please see Courtesy Is Mandatory, Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 12/2/08 by JAK]

SPM 40 or 45, whatever,

This is a PS to my previous post.

What is central right now to this issue is that putting aside for the moment DB being in Liverpool in 1942, is proving another important claim made by you.

I claim that I worked at the STORK Hotel from February until November 1942 - and I can produce INDISPUTABLE evidence to this effect!

You have joined forces with a man from "The Planet of the Apes" and are trumpeting the "fact" that a woman has ben found who worked at the STORK when Bader was there in 1942 and her "evidence" has been found to be sufficient to prove that my story is a fiction!!!

COME ON! All I am suggesting is that I can PROVE that I worked at the said Hotel etc etc but you expect me and the members of this Forum to accept that this woman did work there without any evidence whatsoever being put on the table?

You are thrown out of court lad you MUST agree.

I repeat, before you can make any more accusations against my veracity you MUST now put up or shut up and produce this witness who you fully support, and the evidence to prove what you are claiming is her rebuttable of my story.

That's all......... I NOW REST MY CASE!

KW

Ken,

You are the person making these claims and so clear factual errors are crucial in its examination. I love the fact that in flaming me for getting Ruby's name wrong that you got mine wrong also!!! 1-1, then.

You may well be able to prove that _you_ were at the Stork, but you have not and indeed _cannot_ prove that Bader _was_. I accept the former, but not the latter. Indeed, two Swallows do not a summer make - that petard of yours does seem to trip you up! You base your entire story on one uncorrobrated story - the debunking of this tale however is multi-layered, of which your ex-co-worker's version is but one thread. As DogHead pointed out, your demands for further information from Ruby are unreasonable - he has been satisfied by the proof he has seen - yet you cannot show _any_ proof! The burden of proof remains heavily weighted in favour of Bader's non-appearance in Liverpool.

And really, grow up, this is not a "Campaign" against You - and just who is "going to run me out of town"?!? Simply I seek the truth.

You say that I have never produced any evidence - how can I when this never happened? But you expect everyone to believe your uncorroborated tale, which as we have seen is riddled with inconsistency, exaggations and mistakes (well in excess of just the two you mentioned!), with _no_ evidence. You are a war veteran, fine. But you seem to think that makes your word indisputable, which of course it is not and _then_ you try to disparage me, also a war veteran, but neither of those facts really has any bearing on this discussion. You say "you expect me and the members of this Forum to accept that this woman did work there without any evidence whatsoever being put on the table?" Well, back to that petard again - you expect everyone to accept that Bader was in Liverpool when he was a POW in Germany without any evidence being put on the table! Can you really not see how untenable that position is? You are making these claims, it is for you to prove that the accepted position is wrong, not the reverse, especially as all the circumstantial evidence points to the accepted version being the true version.

Answer me one question. You were told the person was Bader - how did you know that was 100% fact? Never mind the later alleged phone call as you obviously must have been convinced of this fact before making it - how, in 1942, did you absolutely, 100% _know_ that it was Bader?

SPM.45


[edit on 11-2-2008 by SPM.45]

SPM45

You must realize that it is YOU and you only who is now in question and only you can redress this by doing what I reasonably ask you to do.

(1) For the moment forget about Bader. this can come later in the correct sequence.

(2) You fully suport the idea and have congratulated the man from "The Planet of The Apes" for his work in "proving me wrong" by finding another VITAL witness who it is claimed worked at the Stork when I did - I assume you will agree with what I have just said?

(3) All that I am attempting now to establish here with great difficulty in getting through to you, is as the first step, and forgetting all else for the time being, is it not a FACT that I can establish that I worked at this hotel in the time frame under question?

(4) Is it not a fact that a "Mystery" witness is claimed to have been found by a man from "The Planet of The Apes" a witness who claims to have worked at the Hotel in the same time frame and is alleged to be aware that someone was there called Douglas BADER?

(5) Is it not a FACT that neither you or the man from "The Planet of The Apes" is willing or more accurately, CANNOT produce this witness or provide a statement from her that can prove without doubt that she not only worked at the Stork Hotel but indeed exists.

(6) If she did exist, do you not think that I would be over the moon at the prospect of having a REAL 2nd witness to be questioned regardless of the outcome and enablng a more balanced discussion on the rest of my claims?

(7) To give yourself some credibilty, all I ask of you right now is to prove beyond a shadow of doubt as I CAN DO regarding employment at the Stork, forget Bader and the rest, that she RUBY worked at the Stork in 1942. That's all, just to balance the books to provide two indisputable employees of the Stork in the time frame in question then as they say - Let the Games Begin!

(8) Arguments about Bader after this Ruby matter has been cleared up can then rage for as long as you like BUT, we must do this step by step as outlined above - FIRST THINGS FIRST, get this cleared up and I will DEBATE WITH YOU TO YOUR HEARTS CONTENT but if you fail to prove this Ruby matter, then in my books you will be a nobody and not worthy of any more of my time.

The members of this Forum are my witness to my open book attitude so now you must prove yourself, no continous rhetoric JUST THE PLAIN FACTS about the Ruby affair are all that I want from you.


Go for it!

KW

SPM45 or whatever,

PS

In your extraordinary arrogant fashion in you last post you virtually demanded to know how I can be sure that the man I cared for and helped in 1942 was in fact the REAL no substitutes gilt edged Douglas Bader?

(1) I do not bow to demands or supply sensitive information to anonymous individuals but have done so to others more inclined to believe and support my REPEAT, ad infnitum TRUE story and have a real identity.

(2) So MR SPM45 if you want to join that VERY small band of people who know MUCH more than casual passers by such as you about my encounter with DB, you must come out as "they" say.

(3) Provide me with your full name and address, age, occupation, service record and number, your motives and any other information that may assist in establishing that you are not just another resident of "The Planet of The Apes" then I may just be inclined to give you a morsel or two about my time with Bader that I am sure will for ever change your mind and attitude.

Give it some though lad.

KW

Ken,

several paragraphs of bluster and filibuster which amount to "no, you are" and to the basic fact that you cannot verify how you were certain in 1942 that this was Bader. That by no stretch of the imagination is "sensitive information" as even if we accept your MI fantasies (which obviously I do not), this person was openly staying in a hotel. This is not arrogant as you seem to think, but a basic request to give your tale some foundation. Without that, you have absolutely _zero_. Clearly you have no "morsals" to give and with that we can go back to square one. As we have said time and again, you expect one standard of information from everyone while not being prepared to deliver this yourself.

There's that petard of yours, hoisting you up again!

The basic fact therefore is that you cannot give any credence to your tale.

Click here for more information.

Let's try and keep things civil please.

Courtesy Is Mandatory

How Not To Be Banned From ATS...

Thank you,

Jak

[Mod Edit: Content removed. Please see Terms And Conditions Of Use section 1f. Please note also there there is a Complain / Suggestion feature available in your Member center or alternately you can U2U me. Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 12/2/08 by JAK]

[Mod Edit: Content removed. Please see Terms And Conditions Of Use section 1f.

DO NOT REMOVE STAFF EDITS. Jak]

[edit on 12/2/08 by JAK]

Let's remember the topic here is The Douglas Bader Mystery. Any other matter should be addressed elsewhere.

Thank you,

Jak

Sorry Jak, I hadn't meant to break the rules by going off piste, so to speak. So, back to the subject at hand.

The facts in summary appear to be these:

For
Ken was told Bader was a hotel guest but has no other confirmation

Against
The guest's description and ckey character traits differs significantly from those of Bader

The timelines are wrong, key points used to fix the timeng were proven wrong (and then deleted)

There is a witness to attest to a misidentification



It would appear that the Bader mystery has run its course.


[edit on 12-2-2008 by SPM.45]

reply to post by RNM1945


Jak,

I cannot believe that the moderators of this Forum would allow or be party to a situation whereupon one man who remains anoymous can steadfastly attack an 84 year old veteran of world war 2 and resort to lies in an attempt to discredit my true story of meeting and helping Douglas Bader in 1942.

I don't really care if he and you or any of the members of this Forum believe or do not believe my story but what is happening here is a total breakdown of the sacred concept of democracy and this is a tragedy of the first order.

This man SPM 45 who makes his statements from behind, in my view, a cowardly cloak of anonimity whereas I have always been fully available to public scrutiny, now claims that my story is a fiction "as there is a witness who wll attest to this" or words to this effect. NO WITNESS HAS BEEN PRODUCED or interrogated as I have been so intensively.

This so called witness is indeed a fiction as was the "The Man from The Planet of the Apes" who claimed to have found her.
I have asked repeatedly for this witness to be produced or a sworn statement to be made available to at least prove that this person was even employed at the Stork Hotel at the time of my meeting with Bader, but this is brushed aside and more lies disseminated.

I am an honest man with a truthful story to relate, I have nothing to hide and my biography has been widely published on the internet and my name is Kenneth Williams.

The only way that you as a moderator can salvage any credibilty for both yourself and your Forum is by reading very closely the sequence of events and posts leading up one of mine again being suppressed and, if after you read the whole strory you do not feel that this man SPM 45 is both potentially evil and so fixed upon his intent to defame, discredit and dare I say cause my health to detoriate further beyond my current pensioned 60% disabilty.

My story is true and regardless of what those intent upon bringing me down have done in the past and are still attempitng to do now I will die happily when my time comes knowing that my strory is true and that those such as SPM 45 will eventually fall by the wayside and shown for what they are.

I ask you or a panel of resposible people from this Forum to read and fully digest the exchanges between myself and SPM 45 and decide who has attempted to find the truth of my story and who has been totally destructive and intent upon demolishing any semblence of fair and considered debate and then come to a conclusion as to the intent of some people to disrupt the progress of my story and ongoing investigations to find the truth of this matter.

If you are not inclined to take up my suggestion that's alright too as this Forum will then iitself be shown to be a party to the suppresion of free speech, fair play and thought and will be discredited when the British Government eventually releases the details of the events of Bader returning briefly to England in 1942.

God help those that would attempt to suppress the investigation and revelation of the truth however unpleasant this may be to some, and God help those that would attempt to deny any man a fair hearing.

Thank You

Kenneth Williams

Huinter valley
NSW
AUSTRALIA

reply to post by RNM1945


While your account may be as spot-on, factual, and honest as knowledge and experience allow, how can one Not expect nor understand being questioned... especially on a discussion forum which focuses on Conspiracies, hearsay, and the like.

Just doesn't make sense...

... then again, neither do the personal aspersions being cast about in such a tit-for-tat manner.

Do either of you know each other?




 

reply to post by Annie Mossity


Annie Mossity

I have no objections to my story being put under the microscope and I have no objections to questioners wanting to try and cast doubt upon my account of meeting Bader but, LIES and misinformation I will not tolerate under ANY circumstances.

If I am expected to provide proof of my meeting with Bader and I have said over and over again, that I have NO confirmation of my story but posted it on the net to seek assistance in finding a genuine witness, then it is reasonble and mandatory to expect that so called evidence that is claimed to refute my story should be FULLY DOCUMENTED for all to consider.

And by the way, I DID NOT post my story to this Forum I was asked by a member if he could do so.

As for knowing a certain person, I know him well from a carbon copy of these events to be found on the AVIATION FORUM.

Thanks for your interest.

KW

double post. sorry

[edit on 12-2-2008 by GAOTU789]