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how he can be certain that this was Bader and that he was not the victim of a leg pull,
why a secret mession that still has papers locked up (apparently) would be open to public gaze
Baders POW colleagues, many of whom had no love for the man have ever made the slightest hint of this
why the story has been re-editted time and time again to filter out the howlers that have undermine Ken's story.
As stated, this story has been comprehencsively debunked and is clearly a work of fiction.
Originally posted by waynos
I can only guess at the answers but feel that none of the questions you pose cannot be reasoned out.
I find it impossible to believe that a group of high ranking officers, not least during wartime, would be involved in a 'leg pull' to make someone from the lower ranks think they are meeting a war hero. To what purpose?
This is making a presumtion that it was a top secret mission in the first place, it may not have been at the time and may be something that was later declared secret to avoid embarassment, yes that is a presumption in itself but then what do we know for certain? There is also an old saying that the best place to hide something is out in the open, maybe there is an element of this to the story?
Why would they? If Bader was carted off to 'solitary' on some pretext they wouldn't have an inkling that something else was happening.
Ken has already answered this point in a perfectly logical way, that re-edited is necessary when new facts come to light, without that process the quest becomes meaningless and is merely a statement.
I disagree, all of the above is supposition, but nonetheless plausible so therefore nothing has been proven at all except perhaps that you personally seem to be deeply entrenched in your own view, which is your right, and are offended by the mereset suggestion that there may be something mysterious and interesting still to discover about this episode.
I prefer to keep an open mind.
Ken has already answered this point in a perfectly logical way, that re-edited is necessary when new facts come to light, without that process the quest becomes meaningless and is merely a statement.
Originally posted by waynos
I see, so would you say it might not have been a leg pull or a fictional account, but that maybe ken did meet Bader but, due to the timing of these other events, then it would be at an earlier time, before he became a PoW, when such a meeting was easily possible? I may have missed it but I don't recall seeing this possibility being mentioned.
Originally posted by SPM.45
Sorry but just to make another point on this above. No "new" facts have _ever_ come to light on this case and the reason given for rewriting is thus rather disingenuous.
In fact, there are no facts at all.
All we have is an uncorroborated tale, allegedly verified in a brief and also uncorroborated phone call 30 years later.
Ken rewrote the story as key events that he used to place Bader in Liverpool in mid-1942 were shown to have occurred at much earlier dates.
This holed the story below the waterline and so had to be rewritten.
Ultimately, yes. If Bader wasn't released on some sort of parole then he was in captivity. If the story can be shown to be impossible (or at best, improbable), as it _has_ been, then Ken is wrong, like it or not.
How do you know? Are you Ken's former research assistant? Why the inability to turn that microscope on yourself? Ken _must_ be wrong because you _must_ be correct?
Those would seem to be new facts to me.
Yes, but, also, no. It's not like I haven't had to edit my own memory of childhood events after I learned that I had compressed time and added separate events to the story as I remembered it. Prime example: mixing two separate annual holidays into a single narrative about a single family christmas.
Originally posted by Mr Gunter
Crickey... The Fairey Barracuda!
Off topic, but were'nt they also used in the attemps to sink the Tirpitz?
Were they good to fly? I mean, after the fiasco with the Fairey Battle in the early part of the war, were they a marked improvement
Originally posted by RNM1945
reply to post by SPM.45
Lieut. Commander G.R.Clarke R.N, Commander of 827 squadron H.M.S Colossus on the morning of 12th August 1945 took off from HMS Colossus carrying 2 members of the Royal Navy POW Rescue team, LSBA's Luckhurst and Williams and whilst landing at the badly bomb damaged Kiangwan airfield at Shangahai sustained a fracture or fractures to landing gear hydraualics system causing the aircraft, a Fairey Barracuda to crash land and sustain damage to the Port side undercarriage.
I have some really great photos taken from one of the aircraft of the other planes over the airfield and Shanghai as well as some rare and priceless photos of a Barrcuda on the ground in Formosa with Japanese officers looking at it. I also have copies of another of the pilots involved log book and some CLASSIFIED flight information for the Shanghai area.
I am so sorry for you SPM45/WEBPILOT that you could not have been there for such exciting times and that your current life is so deadly dull that you can only get satisfaction by attempting to discredit someone who served his country and was pround to do so.
Now please just go and find yourself a mate of what ever gender turns you on as you need a lot of help - Oh! and watch out for Spooks if you know what I mean!
I WAS THERE!
Originally posted by RNM1945
Why not just put your money where your mouth is and use all your resources to put to the acid test ALL my accounts of my wartime VERY full experience?
I am prepared to bet ALL my worldy goods, house, car and cash in hand against all yours that NO LIES WILL BE FOUND IF I AM TESTED - Now the BIG test for your chum is to take up the challenge!
Just because YOU keep on endlessly stating that Bader was not in Liverpool in 1942 does not and will not make it so - You have to produce non existing gilt edged evidence that he was not there - Why not get MOD et al to make a public statement? They will not and they cannot do so as you must deep down really know.
I do not want to waste any more of my lttle time left messing around with someone who will eventually be proved to be a blithering idiot - so just go and annoy someone else.
It is now up to the members of this Forum to decided who is the villain here and kick the villain off this site for good - If I have to go I don't really care as time will prove me to be right without a shadow of doubt.
Can we have a vote please?