Lets settle this "UK is a Police State" rubbish, right now..

Originally posted by estar
The UK has a massive database of information of everyone this is all collected from school records, NHS records, crime records, car records etc the list goes on and on. We have speed camera's where there not needing taking pictures of everyone's cars. All it takes is one smart poltician and the country can be turned into a dictatorship in no time. Then, what use is the CCTV going to be used for? Hell they have even added camera's that talk and listen into people's conversations. The "if have nothing to hide" attutuide keeps going like it is we will be heading to a dictatorship because people reley on the goverment far to much in this country.

I have no problem with CCTV, but when are rights are being eroded and kids being brainwashed to give their biometric details because there told to by the education authorities, we are heading into murkey water. ID Card another waste of money and gives the goverment even more details about you, this has proven not to work. We may aswell stand outside a goverment building and hand over everything we own and tell them everything about us at this rate.

Great post Estar. The CCTV & data collection might appear to be helping us for now but if a future government goes off the rails and the tide turns against us they'll have a hell of an amount of control and there'll be very little we can do about it, and very little, if no, escape.

Originally posted by estar
All i've read on this topic is the same thing over and over, Stumason from reading your posts i can get a message of "What can the goverment provide for me?" instead of "What can I do to provide for my country", we are being brainwashed into thinking that the goverment should be protecting us, they should be representing us.

One of Governments responsibilities is the safety and security of the nation and the people. From way back when chiefs ruled over tribes, to our modern democracies, that is the basic fundamental reason people group together.

Nice to see you extracting assumptions from my posts, even though I have not said or even implied that I think "What can the government provide for me?".

I am actually not of that mindset at all.

Apart from expecting the Government to look after the country, thats all I want and for the £1500 a month I pay in tax, I damn well expect it! I don't want, or even receive, handouts and don't expect Government to legislate into my life. But they do and I didn't vote for them.

So, if you have issues with the Nanny State, take it up with Labour supporters who brought this upon us.

The Nanny State has nothing to do with accusations of a Police State though.

Can't say I am being "brainwashed" by anything. I don't believe everything I'm told, I question everything. I just do not see CCTV as a threat.

And, as I continually find myself repeating, CCTV IS NOT A GOVERNMENT thing.

Originally posted by estar
Kid's are being brainwashed that the big brother society is good, they have even started finger printing children to get there school meals.

Where? My little one's don't do that and I would be pissed if they asked them too. I think this is another "EU makes horses wear nappies" thing......

Originally posted by estar
Big Brother the TV program, the media makes out being watched 24/7 is cool and your way to fame.

BB is crap and is banned in my house. To be honest, I don't know anyone who watches it. The whole celebrity culture is scorned by most people I know. It's just teenagers and stupid 20-something females with cloth between their ears who buy heat and watch BB. Thankfully, that isn't a large proportion of the population

Originally posted by estar
Yes, CCTV can be good at catching criminals aslong as its regulated more, the amount of CCTV is shocking in this country, if freedoms keep on eroding in this country the whole "Big Brother" state gets worse.

CCTV is as regulated as it gets. You have many rights under the DPA, try using them if it bothers you. People on one hand complain about "loss of rights" but have no idea of rights they actually have!!

Originally posted by estar
All the new terrorism laws that get put in place, the goverment doesn't even know what a terrorist is, a old age pensioner who was in the war was arressted on terrorism charges for heckling a MP.

That example was an over zealous policeman. Also, you neglect to mention that the guy was released without charge and got an apology of senior Labour politicians.

And what "new" terrorism laws are you on about? Most of the time, it is old laws people are prosecuted under. The new laws just add bits here and there to reflect changing times. You don't expect the Government to operate under a 100 year old act here and a 30 year old Act there, do you?

What "rights" have YOU lost? Tell me.

Originally posted by estar
You can no longer protest outside withing 1 mile of the Houses of Parliament anymore, how can a goverment know what the people want when it ignores these protests.

That was to try and remove that bum who sat outside Parliament for months/years. Overkill, maybe, as they could have removed him using existing laws.

But Government ignores protests anyway, even before that, so what's the difference? How does that affect YOU? You can still protest, but outside Parliament building not only disrupts Government itself, it disrupts the heart of London, our economic hub.

Originally posted by estar
The UK has a massive database of information of everyone this is all collected from school records, NHS records, crime records, car records etc the list goes on and on.

And all of it is available for you to read, under the DPA. Nothing is secret.

Originally posted by estar
We have speed camera's where there not needing taking pictures of everyone's cars.

Yeah, when you SPEED and break the law. Don't like them? Don't speed...Jeebus..hardly rocket science...

Originally posted by estar
All it takes is one smart poltician and the country can be turned into a dictatorship in no time. Then, what use is the CCTV going to be used for?

Er, no. The Army wouldn't stand for it. Whilst you might have issues with Police being overzealous idiots, the Army would not sit by and watch the country turn into a Nazi Police State. They are loyal to the Queen, not Government.

Originally posted by estar
Hell they have even added camera's that talk and listen into people's conversations.

Confusing two things, one of which doesn't even exist. Only the talking cam's are out in a select few town centres. The Listening one's won't see the light of day.

Originally posted by estar
The "if have nothing to hide" attutuide keeps going like it is we will be heading to a dictatorship because people reley on the goverment far to much in this country.

They do, to an extent, but that is Labour and it's Nanny attitude. I don't believe for a moment that anyone would actually turn the country into a dictatorship, or even be able too!

Originally posted by estar
I have no problem with CCTV, but when are rights are being eroded and kids being brainwashed to give their biometric details because there told to by the education authorities, we are heading into murkey water. ID Card another waste of money and gives the goverment even more details about you, this has proven not to work. We may aswell stand outside a goverment building and hand over everything we own and tell them everything about us at this rate.

You seem to be under the impression they don't already know everything about you.....

besides, what "biometric data" are kids being "forced" to hand over?

What ID cards are you on about? Even if it passes Parliament, which I doubt it will, how are they different to your passport?

You seem be chucking out so many things as fact, when most of them are pipe dreams that have been hyped up by the media (like the Mail and the Sun).

Furnish some evidence for your claims, as apart from the talking camera's, everything you said was false.

Apart from expecting the Government to look after the country, thats all I want and for the £1500 a month I pay in tax, I damn well expect it! I don't want, or even receive, handouts and don't expect Government to legislate into my life. But they do and I didn't vote for them.

You don't want them to legistate but you want them to put us all in cotton wool and protect us from the big bad baddies that they create. Goverment are terrible at "looking after" the country. People should be responsible for themselves, if they cross the line say "dumping rubbish" on someone else's land apart from there own, thats when the police should step in. People tend to look after there own land, instead goverment slaps more and more regulations telling people what to do.

So, if you have issues with the Nanny State, take it up with Labour supporters who brought this upon us.

Loads of choice in the UK, Labour, Lib Dem or Conservatives.

Can't say I am being "brainwashed" by anything. I don't believe everything I'm told, I question everything. I just do not see CCTV as a threat

You might not be brainwashed but the majority of people are, most people think terrosim is a major threat to are way of life when it isn't. I don't see CCTV as a threat but in the wrong hands it is.

Where? My little one's don't do that and I would be pissed if they asked them too. I think this is another "EU makes horses wear nappies" thing......

Fingerprinting and eye scans for children as young as five
3,500 schools now use finger print scanners in 'Big Brother state by stealth'

BB is crap and is banned in my house. To be honest, I don't know anyone who watches it. The whole celebrity culture is scorned by most people I know. It's just teenagers and stupid 20-something females with cloth between their ears who buy heat and watch BB. Thankfully, that isn't a large proportion of the population

Big Brother is one of the highest rated shows, its been going on for years, if people didn't watch it, it still wouldn't be on.

CCTV is as regulated as it gets. You have many rights under the DPA, try using them if it bothers you. People on one hand complain about "loss of rights" but have no idea of rights they actually have!!

Exactly you said it urself, this is why education is terrible in this country, children don't know what rights they have, they don't have a clue once they leave school about most things, banks for example take them for a ride.

That example was an over zealous policeman. Also, you neglect to mention that the guy was released without charge and got an apology of senior Labour politicians.

That is just a excuse, they used that law to arrest the man. What will stop them using it further? plenty of people in this country have been wrongly arrested because of terrorism laws.

And all of it is available for you to read, under the DPA. Nothing is secret.

Does that make it right that the goverment should know this about me?

Er, no. The Army wouldn't stand for it. Whilst you might have issues with Police being overzealous idiots, the Army would not sit by and watch the country turn into a Nazi Police State. They are loyal to the Queen, not Government.

Loyal to the Queen? shes there because of her German DNA, whats the differance between a dictatorship and the Royal Family, its the same. The army would never get involved they get told what to do, thats why they went to Iraq on a pack of lies.

If they're not fingerprinting school kids in the UK why is there an uproar about it then and why all the news articles dedicated to the banning of such practices? See the BBC for info. or check out the privacyinternational.org website's article -
UK - Fingerprinting School Children

Even though WolfofWar has posted a lot of pictures showing CCTV Cameras, I think that it should be noted all these cameras operate inside City areas/centres and on major roads. There are very few if any cameras in residential areas - only placing cameras where there have been increased levels of crime.

As for fitting speakers to cameras (only inner city cameras I might add), I don't see how that could be a bad thing. It stops criminals as they are committing the crime then its a good thing. Many people will be saved from violent assault and many vandals will run off before vandalising.

If you live in a Flat in the 'inner city' then chances are you will be seen on a CCTV camera when you leave your building. Its just an advancement of technology, and it is not being abused by the government.

Originally posted by estar
You don't want them to legistate but you want them to put us all in cotton wool and protect us from the big bad baddies that they create. Goverment are terrible at "looking after" the country. People should be responsible for themselves, if they cross the line say "dumping rubbish" on someone else's land apart from there own, thats when the police should step in. People tend to look after there own land, instead goverment slaps more and more regulations telling people what to do.

I just want them to do what is expected. Health, education, transport, defence. Those sort of things. I don't want my money spent on pointless projects, or enforcing nanny laws.

See, I don't want them to legislate for everything, but they have to legislate somewhere, otherwise Police have no powers! That's where the Police draw their power from.

You can't say it's a Police matter and then criticise the government for legislating...

But, I agree, Labour has been legislating away far too much, but thats a typical Labour response. Personal responsibility is a notion that is alien to alot of people.

That does not make us a Police State though...

Originally posted by estar
Loads of choice in the UK, Labour, Lib Dem or Conservatives.

I know! But the Political system in this country skews the results. Not for this thread though, but the system is unfair.

I'm a Tory supporter, myself. Stuck in a Labour stronghold though.

Originally posted by estar
You might not be brainwashed but the majority of people are, most people think terrosim is a major threat to are way of life when it isn't. I don't see CCTV as a threat but in the wrong hands it is.

Indeed, but a fish is dangerous in the wrong hands. You cannot be against something because it might be bad, when it has plenty of benefits too!

Originally posted by estar
Fingerprinting and eye scans for children as young as five
3,500 schools now use finger print scanners in 'Big Brother state by stealth'

Well, that one slipped me by. It does state though that parental permission will be sought and they will have protection under the DPA. Depends on how much you trust the Government, really, doesn't it? They have some valid points for introducing it. They have similar systems in place in the US.

Originally posted by estar
Big Brother is one of the highest rated shows, its been going on for years, if people didn't watch it, it still wouldn't be on.

It does struggle in the ratings, especially lately. But, yes, it is "popular", I must concede...

Originally posted by estar
Exactly you said it urself, this is why education is terrible in this country, children don't know what rights they have, they don't have a clue once they leave school about most things, banks for example take them for a ride.

Well, PM Brown wants Citizenship and Life lessons for Schools, so hopefully that will address the apathy in today's Youth. We can only hope. Parents should take an active interest in teaching their kids this stuff too, but it's the same old story. Most blame government for their own failings. The Chav culture is almost entirely the fault of bad parenting, although it has to be said, Government funding for Youth projects and clubs could cut the problem in half straight away.

Originally posted by estar
That is just a excuse, they used that law to arrest the man. What will stop them using it further? plenty of people in this country have been wrongly arrested because of terrorism laws.

It's hardly a trend though, is it?

Originally posted by estar
Does that make it right that the goverment should know this about me?

It's all information YOU have given them.....

Originally posted by estar
Loyal to the Queen? shes there because of her German DNA, whats the differance between a dictatorship and the Royal Family, its the same. The army would never get involved they get told what to do, thats why they went to Iraq on a pack of lies.

I trust the Queen more than any slimy self serving politician, any day. She actually seems to care about the country and has, privately, despaired at what has happened with TB in charge.

Going to War is one thing and they're not happy about that, but asking them to turn on their own people is a different kettle of fishes....

Trust me, I have several serving family members in the forces and many ex-members. The general consensus is the Government is a bunch of snakes. If they asked them to turn on the people, they wouldn't do it.

I think you'd likely see a situation akin to Thailand if that happened. They would perform a coup, under the authority of Her Majesty, who does have supreme control, no matter what people say. If she called her Generals upon the eve of a Dictatorship being put in place and asked them to oppose it, they would.

It won't come to that though, as not even Labour are that mad.

We are starting to agree on some points mate, we have a differance in opinon mostly likely me being anti-socialist, but not a chance you will have me agreeing on the Royal Family, I don't like the Royals and I don't like what they stand for, they should not have the right to tax people because of their DNA. The Royals have oppressed the population for centuries, I would never trust them, imagine Prince Phillip with a bit of power oh dear lol! im just very wary of power slipping into the wrong hands. I'll be screaming if there is anymore tax on air faires or petrol that they're pushing for, I pay for energy not how it comes! bah thats another debate i'll stop before i get on a rant.

[edit on 15-7-2007 by estar]

Originally posted by estar
We are starting to agree on some points mate, we have a differance in opinon mostly likely me being anti-socialist, but not a chance you will have me agreeing on the Royal Family, I don't like the Royals and I don't like what they stand for, they should not have the right to tax people because of their DNA. The Royals have oppressed the population for centuries, I would never trust them, imagine Prince Phillip with a bit of power oh dear lol! im just very wary of power slipping into the wrong hands. I'll be screaming if there is anymore tax on air faires or petrol that they're pushing for, I pay for energy not how it comes! bah thats another debate i'll stop before i get on a rant.

Ah, indeed we are. I am rather pleases with this thread on the whole. I think the insinuation that we are a Police State has been debunked, but I am sure that there will be a few more pages yet.

To be honest, I'm mostly anti-socialist myself. I do, however, think the NHS is a good idea to come out of Labour, but apart from that, they are too overbearing and take away your personal responsibilities too much.

I like the Royals because they are unelected. Sounds odd I know, but hear me out.

Without the worry of an electorate to placate, and thus, flip flopping on issues to appease the masses, the Royals say what they think. We need more people like that these days, especially in Government. I sometimes wish the Queen would stick her oar in a bit more, just to give Parliament something to focus on. She has the power, but doesn't use it...

I think on the whole, if it was a major issue the Government were dallying over, the people would look to the Queen for a response, whether your a monarchist or not. It doesn't matter if you like the idea or not, she has been trained and groomed in matters of state for her entire life and has been around longer than any of the politicians in Westminster. She knows the score.

It's also a very cost effective tourist trap and a link to the past. I am a sentimental fool.....

I agree about the NHS, its a great idea but Labour are trying there best to ruin it, just let the doctors get on with there job. It would reduce wait times and save billions. The lesson from this thread is that we aren't a police state but we must be wary of turning into one. If people lay over and die we could end up on that route, I especially don't like the fact MP's seem to be above the law. Whoever started the propaganda for the war needs to be put on trial. Just a intresting point, when Hitler rose to power in the schools they branded a message "don't listen to your parents, listen to us", this has started happening here and needs to be stamped on.

Originally posted by Chupa101

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Like broad generalizations of a country with 300 million people in it

A Scottish friend of mine went to New York recently, here's a quick transcript of a brief conversation they had with a random woman:

Random woman: Hi, can I just ask are you from Ireland?
Scottish friend: No, actually I'm Scottish.
Random woman: Oh right...Hey that's near London right?
Scottish friend: ........

Its difficult for people not to make generalizations when presented with ignorance like that.

Note: I am anti-SNP independence people and England subsidising Scotland (in cases of education and health services) as I've written in previous posts, but that doesn't mean I hate Scottish people or their country, personally I think Edinburgh is great, definitely one of the top 10 cities in Europe (that I've been to) although Glasgow is perhaps somewhat less enjoyable

Not all of Glasgow, just certain places. I love Irn-Bru too.

Yeah but thats New York thats a whole different can of worms

I think that the reason the fingerprinting in schools is being looked at is because of the drug-dealing happening in primary schools as well as secondary schools.
Surely this is a good thing as it determines where the drugs are coming from and gets the offenders out of school.
There have also been a lot of stabbings at schools .
You may remember the headlines about knife crime being higher than gun crime in the u.k. especially at schools with some adopting metal detectors.

The fact that some people suffer harrassment from police may be true but my partner (who is from london ) was suffering from the north-south divide.
I pointed this out to the local dibble in a letter and the surveillance stopped.
Communication is the key here.
All too often you will get busy-bodies who think they know something when they know nothing and ring the police and say this person is doing this,that and the other and more often than not these are the people commiting crimes and turning the attention away from themselves.I also stated this to the local force and the ones who were misinforming are now being watched lol.
Thats where cameras come into effect.Because people will lie to their own ends
The police do a good job but they are limited by the laws that are imposed on them.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Yeah but thats New York thats a whole different can of worms

And what is that supposed to mean?

Thats me taking a pot shot at New York City which for better or worse is one main faces shown to the world.

I swear sometimes people think that NYC LA and DC are the only 3 places in this country.

I used to live in NYC a bit too crowded for me though nice place to visit however.

Let me put it this way (I may be comparing Canada on a few things by accident though) And this is not limited to the Police State argument

UK: No Guns, means you're screwed if you ever do become a police state

USA: Guns allowed, which means Police state = impossible

UK: Guilty untill proven innocent (this may be canada, so sorry if I'm wrong)

USA: Innocent until proven guilty (If you don't get caught in corruption *cough* Border patrol agents *cough*)

UK: Chynoble radiation rains down onto you, if not then it rains everyday anyway, so oh well

USA: We have something called FOUR seasons.

UK: Taxes go to war, health care, and educating dumb people

USA: Taxes go to war and education. (If we payed for health care we'd go broke)

UK: Clean air (if it's not raining chynobl radiation)

USA: "I'm siiiingin' in the acid rain, just siiiingin' in the acid rain"

UK: Little annoying cars that go "FaChing"

USA: Big ass Humvees that go "HONK HONK, GTF OUTTA DA WAY MAN!"

UK: Big Ass Gas prices

USA: Low, but chugin' along.

UK: Mother of the USA

USA: Child of the UK that grew up to pay its parent's retirement, along with all the UK's retirmetn friends too.


Just my funny 2 Cents. I hope you all had a laugh at it.

Originally posted by wigit
If they're not fingerprinting school kids in the UK why is there an uproar about it then and why all the news articles dedicated to the banning of such practices? See the BBC for info. or check out the privacyinternational.org website's article -
UK - Fingerprinting School Children

I have a 13 year old daughter at school and can assure you she has, and never will be fingerprinted at school

I haven't read much of this thread, so at the risk of redundancy: The UK isn't free because of the ubiquitous cameras, the Socialism, the EU, the monarchy, the government-controlled media, nationalized health care, the Euro, and, last but not least, the resentment of America, which is the country that, like it or not, represents "freedom" to, um ... Americans.

OK.

After a few days of research, have a guess at how many camera's I pass on my 8 mile journey to work and back every day, and while I visit the local supermarket which is about 3 miles away from me.

Heres a clue. I don't live in London. Its 200 miles away from me.

England is not a police state, but IS a country which has a large amount of CCTV, to ensure that its residents, from whatever country feel safe in our streets, and to reduce crime.

To highlight this point, please refer to a news story that shows how crime has and is falling i nthe U.K.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Its not perfect, but is certainly producing lower crime stats.

This is IMHO for two main reasons...The first is those lovable fixed CCTV cameras, and the second and more important is that there is greater police presence on the streets than before on 'foot patrol' in local areas

See the quote from the news story below:

The new Scottish Executive has announced plans for an additional 1,000 police officers on the street to help in the fight against crime.

news.bbc.co.uk...

I can understand though, that when people read news stories like this one...

Police 'to access road cameras'

BBC News

...then you can see what they mean - although I think even this is a good idea, it can always be open to abuse and as the article says,

The Lib Dems accused the government of using that announcement as a "Trojan Horse" for more wide-ranging proposals.

Lib Dems = Liberal Democratic Political Party

As for funny boy american who thinks chernobyl is next to london as well, and still emmiting radiation which happens to be 'raining down on us', get real, chernobyl happened 21 years ago, and if radiation is still in the air, then with the right wind conditions it should be over US airspace as we speak!

As for having four seasons and no rain, the only four seasons I ever hear about in the US are as follows; Hurricane, Blizzard, Flood and Fire.

Oh and British police forces and army don't enter into our educational systems, harrasing and scaring our students or children, and we aren't a nation of educating obese dumb and dumbers, that is a U.S./TV land thing, which is demonstrated clearly by the nations leader G. Bush when he says we have 'Newkiler' technology in stead of 'nuclear'.

And nor do we fire the nations law court representatives, because "They aren't my friends", and finally and most shockingly, it is only a police state that would rewrite the constitution to serve their own purposes whilst squeezing the lifeblood out of freedom.

The U.S. is a police state.

Any Questions? I thought not.




[edit on 19/7/2007 by deaman88]

Don't worry UK, in about 15 years the NAU and EU will join together and nuke the AU. (You have to be a serious reader on this site to understand those terms)

Originally posted by Gorman91

UK: No Guns, means you're screwed if you ever do become a police state

No problem - we've got plenty of criminals with guns and there's the added bonus that the state has no record of who has the guns

UK: Chynoble radiation rains down onto you, if not then it rains everyday anyway, so oh well

USA: We have something called FOUR seasons.

We get 4 seasons. We just never quite know which one it is at the moment (think it's autumn (fall) right now ..... )


btw I could drastically reduce the number of CCTV cameras that capture me every day ........ by taking them out of my shop