Lets settle this "UK is a Police State" rubbish, right now..

It has been (repeatedly) said on ATS that the UK is a Police State.

Mostly by Americans (although this is not the rule, it is most definitely the overwhelming majority) and mostly using inaccurate information, or in some cases, completely fabricated lies.

In many cases, the main proponents of this attempt to portray the UK in this way also seem to be bible-bashers who believe in some "Anti-Christ" or NWO conspiracy, which only further muddies the waters of reason and logic.

They also are under the delusion that the UK is a "test bed" for the US and all part of an evil conspiracy to enslave mankind, but they can't test it on the good ol'Americans first, as they're too good for it...... I mean, how arrogant is it to assume that?

Many, many UK posters try to explain why it is not, but the message does not seem to get through, or we end up derailing another thread with this tit-for-tat argument. So, I decided to make a thread dedicated to the whole plethora of "Police State" accusations.

So, in the spirit of freedom of speech and to stop other threads being derailed, as it seems to be a recurring theme, I open the floor to one and all to discuss whether this notion of "Police State" is real, or as I believe, the product of overly paranoid and ill-informed Americans who wouldn't know a Police State if it came up and smacked them on the arse.....

Bring it on....

Britain's don't need lectures from American's about 'Police States'. The UK has nothing on the USA when it comes to totalitarianism! Here's a short list:

For a start the UK has more than just Democrats and Republicans in its political system, we have free Healthcare, a far greater record on Human rights (Guantanamo bay?), we don't execute people; we don't execute the mentally ill, we don't have regular police officers running around with guns, we don't have people buying small arsenals because they think it is their 'god given right', we don't force schools to change their Scientific teachings to include radical religious beliefs, we don't refer to a 'God' when we talk about Law and Morality, we don't evacuate rich people from flooded cities leaving the poor to drown, we don't have a government that treats non-whites as second class citizens and we don't think the rest of the world is out to get us.

The UK isn't perfect, but it'll be a cold day in hell when American's can call us a 'police state' compared to their nation.

Fin.

the uk is a police state.heh sry had to stu.

anyway i'll take your word for it since you live there.All i know is you guys have tons of cameras but the us is also now starting to do this so would that make us a police state? nahhh

Originally posted by Chupa101
Britain's don't need lectures from American's about 'Police States'. The UK has nothing on the USA when it comes to totalitarianism! Here's a short list:

For a start the UK has more than just Democrats and Republicans in its political system,

There are more than Democrats and Republlicans just seems thats who most votes for. Doesnt make the US a Police State.

we have free Healthcare,

Actually taxes pay for it , which is fine but its not free

a far greater record on Human rights (Guantanamo bay?),

While definitely not perfect at Guantanamo we really dont want to get into a tit for tat on human rights do we? Imprisoning foriegn fighters during wartime doesnt make un a Police State

we don't execute people;

Well we do but that has nothing to do with a Police State

we don't execute the mentally ill,

If your talking criminals keep in mind too often mentally ill is used as an excuse.

we don't have regular police officers running around with guns,

Keep in mind most US Police Officers never fire a shot outside of training.

we don't have people buying small arsenals because they think it is their 'god given right',

You are born with the right of self defense God Gods or Goddesses have nothing to do with it. If someone want to buy something completely legal why should it matter to anyone else.

we don't force schools to change their Scientific teachings to include radical religious beliefs,

Nor do we although some fringe nutters may want to try

we don't refer to a 'God' when we talk about Law and Morality,

Some of us do thats called Freedom of Expression

we don't evacuate rich people from flooded cities leaving the poor to drown,

Government has breakdowns not everyone who drowned was poor and not all were black truly more whites drowned than black.

we don't have a government that treats non-whites as second class citizens

Nor do we some may feel that way and that is thier right people of color have the same rights as I a whitey do.

and we don't think the rest of the world is out to get us.

Just because we are paranoid dont mean it isnt true

The UK isn't perfect, but it'll be a cold day in hell when American's can call us a 'police state' compared to their nation.

The UK isnt a Police State its not even close, neither is the US contrary to popular belief, I wouldnt hesistate to live in the UK if they would let me keep my guns

Fin.

The camera's issue is about the only thing that "pro-Police Staters" seem to cling on too.

Ignoring the fact that 93% of CCTV is privately owned, as in a garage, or a shop or whatever, to catch an image of someone who may want to commit a crime.

If no crime is committed, those tapes are not even looked at and, more than likely, taped over a week later.

So, if you don't commit an armed robbery in a shop, or whatever takes your fancy, there is nothing to fear from CCTV.

Those few cameras that are operated by LOCAL AUTHORITIES, not the Government, are in town centre's or other public area's. In that case, it is no different than having a Policeman watch what you do, is it not?

Don't kick someones head in at closing time and you'll not even notice them, but if your having your head kicked in outside a pub, you'll thank God they were there.

Thank heavens they dont let you keep your guns here then.

I have dual nationality.British and Australian. I was born in the UK and was forced to emigrate to OZ in the 60's. My family became Naturalised and dragged me along with them because I was underage.
I came back to the UK as soon as I could afford to and would live permanently in no other country.
I CHOOSE to live here
I was offered a job in the USA but turned it down.

Yep I moan about things
I bitch about the government, the trains, the buses the London car charge, the price of Pie & Mash, & jellied eels
But I still wouldnt live anywhere else in the world.

The UK is NOT a police state for the simple reason that there just isnt enough of them !

Originally posted by stumason


Those few cameras that are operated by LOCAL AUTHORITIES, not the Government, are in town centre's or other public area's. In that case, it is no different than having a Policeman watch what you do, is it not?

Don't kick someones head in at closing time and you'll not even notice them, but if your having your head kicked in outside a pub, you'll thank God they were there.

A fair point. The Police are a mixed bag though... They seem to be getting persecuted for the Government's failings (i.e controversial laws allowing dangerous criminals to get out of jail early due to over crowding) and combine that with the fact that speeding motorists and other minor criminals are the one's who are filling the jails.

What worries me is the fact that our media (usually the BBC) talks about over crowding prisons all the time. Is this to dumb us down into believing that maybe something more drastic is in order?

The US has more cameras that they would like to admit and like the UK most are privately owned. I live in Vegas we got more cameras than you can count.

[edit on 7/14/2007 by DarkStormCrow]

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Actually taxes pay for it , which is fine but its not free

Lol no need to tell me about British taxes, and actually it is free, a person who has never paid tax, hell, not even lived in the UK for more than a month could get hurt and have the NHS treat them, free of charge.

While definitely not perfect at Guantanamo we really dont want to get into a tit for tat on human rights do we? Imprisoning foriegn fighters during wartime doesnt make un a Police State

They aren't foreign fighters, most of the people were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Plus you are illegally holding citizens of Australia, UK and the greater EU, how many American citizens are being held without trial in those countries? Exactly, none. The USA is treating its Allies citizens like this and you wonder why there is so much anti-Americanism in the world?

If your talking criminals keep in mind too often mentally ill is used as an excuse.

I'm talking about people with proven mental disorders and mental ages of children being sent to 'the chair'; that's just wrong.

Keep in mind most US Police Officers never fire a shot outside of training.

Yet L.A alone has a higher gun crime and gun murder rate than the entire UK? Something not right there.

You are born with the right of self defense God Gods or Goddesses have nothing to do with it. If someone want to buy something completely legal why should it matter to anyone else.

I was referencing your constitution, your 'God given right to bear arms'? Lets face it Americas gun problem is that they don't control them.

As for Americas position on civil/equal rights? Since they have only been around in the US for 40 years or so I still think there is a lot of institutional racism. Plus the Hurricane Katrina incident had blatant racial and social undertones to it, the fact that the only people left in the city were the black and the poor kind of explained itself.

The UK isnt a Police State its not even close, neither is the US contrary to popular belief, I wouldnt hesistate to live in the UK if they would let me keep my guns

I agree with you there, perhaps the UK does have too restricted gun laws, but until everyone can be trusted, then no-one can be, guns are too serious to let anyone have.


[edit on 14/7/07 by Chupa101]

Lol no need to tell me about British taxes, and actually it is free, a person who has never paid tax, hell, not even lived in the UK for more than a month could get hurt and have the NHS treat them, free of charge.

You can go to any emergency room in the US and you would get treated Illegal immigrants do it all the time.

They aren't foreign fighters, most of the people were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Plus you are illegally holding citizens of Australia, UK and the greater EU, how many American citizens are being held without trial in those countries? Exactly, none. The USA is treating its Allies citizens like this and you wonder why there is so much anti-Americanism in the world?

We are just going to have to disagree on this one

I'm talking about people with proven mental disorders and mental ages of children being sent to 'the chair'; that's just wrong.

I personally am against the death penalty in all cases for the same reason that I am against abortion all life is sacred its that simple.

Yet L.A alone has a higher gun crime and gun murder rate than the entire UK? Something not right there.

Criminals will ply their trade with or without guns, in the time since the UK banned guns has gun crime decreased?

I was referencing your constitution, your 'God given right to bear arms'? Lets face it Americas gun problem is that they don't control them.

God isnt in the constitution Constitution of the United States

There are plenty of controls on guns criminals just find ways around them.
Luckily most criminals kill other criminals. How many lives would be saved by taking away my guns 0, the only way one of my guns will be seen or even used is if I or one of my family members are in immediate danger of loosing life or limb. I have been carrying a gun as a civilian for going on 15 years and I have never had to remove it from the holster.

As for Americas position on civil/equal rights? Since they have only been around in the US for 40 years or so I still think there is a lot of institutional racism. Plus the Hurricane Katrina incident had blatant racial and social undertones to it, the fact that the only people left in the city were the black and the poor kind of explained itself.

Is the US perfect on civil rights no, no country is would you say that all Muslims in the UK feel that they are treated as well as others? As far as racism I have heard Brits use the terms Wogs and filthy Paki as much as the racial nutters here use the the N***** and S*** words

Actually during Katrina as bad as it was for Blacks it was worse for Whites who died in numbers dispoprtionate to thier % in the population.

Vital Statistics of All Bodies at St. Gabriel Morgue

I agree with you there, perhaps the UK does have too restricted gun laws, but until everyone can be trusted, then no-one can be, guns are too serious to let anyone have.

I will never agree that punishing the law abiding because of criminals and nutters is a good idea.

Well Stu I'm glad you made this thread.

Nice blunt title

Anyone who uses the term "Police State" as a description for the UK has no idea what they are talking about - plain and simple.

Just a quick question before I decide to enter the debate....

The rights, liberties, and freedoms you in the UK enjoy... are they granted by the Government, or are they inalienable?

Make certain to reference your "Constitution" (or whatever it's called) before you reply.

Stu

Obviously this is a topic which has been bugging you .

Many people on this site will believe what they read about places they've never been to, or people they've never met, simply because it's posted somewhere on the web. Anyone who has spent any time in the UK, or appreciates the differences in culture between the UK and other countries, would find the notion of the police state in the UK utterly comic. The presence of CCTV cameras does not in itself provide evidence that the UK citizens are under 'organized surveillance'.

I do think you are being a little unfair to Americans though, who are a product of their culture just as you are a product of yours. There is as much of a misunderstanding of US culture and attitudes in the UK as is the reverse. I have already read some mightily ignorant comments about the US on this thread already.

Is the UK a police state? Give me a break! They can't even enforce the laws they already have. I'd like to see Big Brother enforce the police state down the Bigg Market on a Saturday night

Is the US full of dumbasses? Hardly - some of the smartest people in the world live here. However, none of them seem to spend any time in the White House

Stu,

Sensitive are we?

I agree with everything except laying this at Americans' doorsteps. Are you blind to the fact that most people on this board (including both Americans and Brits) say the same things (or worse) about the USA? This is a conspiracy site, so I think you just have to learn to shrug it off. I think I have (at least in most cases ).

I have to agree with you Stu, the UK is not a police state, atleast not yet.

The UK is a "surveilance state" and it's population will never recognise, due to shallow appeasement, over indulgence and self-centredness, the subtle transitions that are pushing us into the aformentioned "police state".

Sure, if you don't break the law you have nothing to fear, well, we can choose to believe that, but what if your name is Jean Charles de Menezes and "look" like a possible terrorist or maybe a practicing Muslim who has a finger pointed at them in and live in Forest Gate.

And when the police find nothing that relates to terrorism that will enable them to put you away, what better way to ensure you pay for their mistake
than to take your credibility away, No charges for Forest Gate victim..

No the UK is not a "police state", atleast not for you and I.

Originally posted by Infoholic
The rights, liberties, and freedoms you in the UK enjoy... are they granted by the Government, or are they inalienable?

This really is a silly question. No matter what is written down, in reality all rights are granted by the government. The U.S. Declaration of Independence says our rights are granted by God and are inalienable, but the Declaration has absolutely no force of law.

The U.S. Constitution does a good job by laying out some specific rights, and is trying really hard with the 9th and 10th Amendments:

Amendment 9
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment 10
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

But I don't think very many laws (if any at all lately) have been struck down due to these clauses. And the specific rights "guaranteed" by the Constitution could always be overturned by a Constitutional amendment or (even worse) simply a reinterpretation by the Supreme Court.

Originally posted by Infoholic
Just a quick question before I decide to enter the debate....

The rights, liberties, and freedoms you in the UK enjoy... are they granted by the Government, or are they inalienable?

Make certain to reference your "Constitution" (or whatever it's called) before you reply.

They are very similar in principal to the right granted to US citizens in the Constitution. The only real difference is that there is no document specifically written as a constitution at a specific point in time.

As you are probably aware, the UK has a much longer history than the US, and was not created in one great revolutionary explosion as many other counties have been. Consequently the constitution is 'spread about a bit' in a number of documents, case law and legal precedents. There is very little left unwritten.

Originally posted by stumason
93% of CCTV is privately owned

Just out curiosity, where did you get that statistic? Is there a database of privately owned CCTV cameras?
Also you do know that the word private doesn't mean jack doodley, Boeing, Halliburton, AMDOCS, just for example, they are 'private' entities. Fun with statistics, everybody does it, but be careful citing them as evidence because some of us know that game.

The reason I was asking... was to perhaps provoke a bit of thought and research into the UK Constitition (or whichever name it may go by), because the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy. With me?

The rights and liberties that are in the US are inalienable, yes as stated in the D.o.I... and yes, they hold no weight when it comes to law, however those words being the basis for the foundation and formation of the U.S. is what sets the US apart from the UK.

The U.S. Constitution is solely a set of limitations on the powers for our Federal Government... including all three branches.

The Constitutional Monarchy that the UK oh so enjoys is based currently on a "Constitution" that provides zero lilmitations on their own Government. Hence, asking about the freedoms, etc.

The UK Government at any time can take your rights from you. Period. Why?... Because there's no limit to what they can do. The US Government cannot.

That is my opinion (please take it for such) as to why I feel the UK would in fact be a Police State... it's more of a "You'll be ok as long as you walk this fine line and obey your master."

Don't take me wrong, I do not for one moment feel the US is any better than the UK for any reason. Here in the US, the limitations still stand on our Government, however at any given moment I'm certain Bush and Co. would just love to throw the hammer down. After all, there's been too many steps taken by this Corrupt Government to ensure they have a way out on top if the people were to rise.


Info.

posted by infoholic
Just a quick question before I decide to enter the debate....

The rights, liberties, and freedoms you in the UK enjoy... are they granted by the Government, or are they inalienable?

Make certain to reference your "Constitution" (or whatever it's called) before you reply.

As stated, we have many documents and precedents that lay out our rights, from the Magna Carta, to the Bill of Rights and beyond. Our Law has evolved for over 1000 years to what it is today.

posted by Trinityman
Stu

Obviously this is a topic which has been bugging you .

You can tell?

posted by Trinityman
I do think you are being a little unfair to Americans though, who are a product of their culture just as you are a product of yours. There is as much of a misunderstanding of US culture and attitudes in the UK as is the reverse. I have already read some mightily ignorant comments about the US on this thread already.

I don't think I am being unfair, I didn't say ALL Americans, I just made the observation that most of the people I "debate" with about this subject seem to be American and Bang on about the "Anti-Christ"...

posted by djohnsto77
Stu,

Sensitive are we?

I agree with everything except laying this at Americans' doorsteps. Are you blind to the fact that most people on this board (including both Americans and Brits) say the same things (or worse) about the USA? This is a conspiracy site, so I think you just have to learn to shrug it off. I think I have (at least in most cases ).

I think some of you have misread what I said. I wasn't saying Americans think the UK is a Police State or that ALL Americans are arrogant etc. What I was doing, as explained above, was making the observation that MOST of the people who spout this garbage are American.

It's the same as saying "Terrorist A is a Muslim" but not all terrorists are Muslim and not all Muslim's are Terrorists, so it isn't a blanket statement....

posted by Koka
The UK is a "surveilance state" and it's population will never recognise, due to shallow appeasement, over indulgence and self-centredness, the subtle transitions that are pushing us into the aformentioned "police state".

The UK Government doesn't carry out any widespread surveillance beyond ordinary Police/Secret Service activity, which is akin to any Western nation.

What you may not know is that the UK has on the statute books Laws that would allow the Government to swiftly and easily implement a state that would make Stalin proud, yet they do not. This very thing shows that the politicians, whilst being a little corrupt and power hungry, don't actually want us to be a "police state".

posted by Koka
Sure, if you don't break the law you have nothing to fear, well, we can choose to believe that, but what if your name is Jean Charles de Menezes and "look" like a possible terrorist or maybe a practicing Muslim who has a finger pointed at them in and live in Forest Gate.

The guy was unfortunate and that particular directive allowing a "shoot to kill" policy has been rescinded. Now they need express authorisation to do that from the Gold commander.

But the way your painting it with your loaded statement implies that it is common to be shot dead by Police for no reason.

I can think of 2 occasions in thew past decade, the above being one.

Now, how many occur in countries where the Police are routinely armed? Answer that, then bitch about the Brazilian.

posted by Koka
And when the police find nothing that relates to terrorism that will enable them to put you away, what better way to ensure you pay for their mistake
than to take your credibility away, No charges for Forest Gate victim..

You know what would be a good idea, is to engage your grey matter and read beyond the headline.

You honestly think that these poor sods will just be told "sorry for shooting you" and left at that? They'll not only get an official apology, but a nice hearty payout to boot.

Now, tell me exactly when did the Nazi's apologise to Jews they didn't mean to kill and pay them compensation? That, my friend, is a Police State. Not the overblown headline you've cherry picked there.

posted by twitchy
Just out curiosity, where did you get that statistic? Is there a database of privately owned CCTV cameras?
Also you do know that the word private doesn't mean jack doodley, Boeing, Halliburton, AMDOCS, just for example, they are 'private' entities. Fun with statistics, everybody does it, but be careful citing them as evidence because some of us know that game.

The very same report that the other side love to cite as their source for the "300 times a day" line. Might as well keep it consistent, hey?

When I say private, that could be from the local corner-shop to the big retail park, or the corporate headquarters or someones driveway.

Private means "not Government", not the "private" as whats in your pants....

posted by infoholic
The Constitutional Monarchy that the UK oh so enjoys is based currently on a "Constitution" that provides zero lilmitations on their own Government. Hence, asking about the freedoms, etc.

You misunderstand how this country operates. There are limitations on Government, they're just not set out in a single document. We also have the checks and balances that every other Western democracy enjoys. Then, there are the EU laws that further muddy the waters...

posted by infoholic
The UK Government at any time can take your rights from you. Period. Why?... Because there's no limit to what they can do. The US Government cannot.

Aside from the Human Rights given to us by that Act, we do not really have any "rights". A common misconception about the UK. Having said that, there are limitations on what exactly the Government can do.

It's a complex situation and you cannot compare the US like for like with the UK, it just doesn't work like that.

posted by infoholic
That is my opinion (please take it for such) as to why I feel the UK would in fact be a Police State... it's more of a "You'll be ok as long as you walk this fine line and obey your master."

Thats not how it is at all. Aside from gun ownership, I believe the UK to be less restrictive than the US, both legally and what is socially acceptable. Your own Police are violent and are "Law Enforcers". Our Police are there to "keep the peace". It is actually rather hard to get arrested in the UK and you have to be doing something rather serious to warrant it.