Judges OK warrantless monitoring of Web use

Judges OK warrantless monitoring of Web use

sfgate.com

Federal agents do not need a search warrant to monitor a suspect's computer use and determine the e-mail addresses and Web pages the suspect is contacting, a federal appeals court ruled Friday.

In a drug case from San Diego County, the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco likened computer surveillance to the "pen register" devices that officers use to pinpoint the phone numbers a suspect dials, without listening to the phone calls themselves.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Email has essential replaced the Post Office and the telephone as the primary means of communication. If police and law enforcement officials suspect illegal activity, then I fail to see what the problem is in obtaining a warrent to legaly tap into messags and communication.

This is yet another chipping away at personal liberties. In fact, its going to make things worse as more spohisticated encryption comes online and the FBI et al will be hard pressed to crack it in a timely manner

sfgate.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

I'm assuming it also means that the gov't can moniter anyone's internet activities... not just criminals. Just frigging wonderful. Though, its not like it makes much of a difference since they could, and did, do that before... just illegally. The rights of this nation just continue to dissapear, don't they? Sooner or later, there won't be any privacy, any freedom of speech, or any freedom whatsoever, the way this nation is heading.

Originally posted by Saturn
I'm assuming it also means that the gov't can moniter anyone's internet activities... not just criminals.

Exactly. This is hat has me so concerned. If they need to look getting a warrent is not that hard. They just have to justify it. But now, its open season.

But where does information seeking turn criminal? Once you act apon it?

Say since Im a curious guy, I look up everything from how to make gunpowder to how to make a mini potatoe gun, Will I be held responsible for looking at information that could be dangerious or will it just be that "information"

I hate to say this, but this world NEEDS to have a huge change becuz we as ( morons) I mean humans are getting a (sarcasticaly speaking) "Tad" too far in monitoring life.

Soon you will be arrested for possible thoughts of violence, something EVERYONE one of us thinks about but moral issues and common sense prevent in most to act apon.

I thought our country stood for something, but that wasnt freedom at least not anymore, its Free-to-be-Doomed.

this is just another issue that will fill our prisons with non-criminals and leave no room for the murderers, the rapists, and the hardcore drug trafficers.

their already filled with non violent drug offenders who are in there for a 1st time offense for alot of things that GROW out of our soil. Soon chocolate will be illegal.

Nothing is safe anymore, everything is up for grabs as dangerious activities. even my rants. lol

Lets see how far this will go during a time of serious war and who really will help our government when things get so bad no one is there to enforce. Watch americans form their own government, can we say 8 presidents for our 100 states. heh.

Im not speaking from just my views, from others I have seen and heard. Americans are not happen. and im sure will react in a time of reaction.

[edit on 7-7-2007 by Tranceopticalinclined]

As alarming as this is, and as disgusted as I am about further erosion of privacy and personal liberty in this country, I will still be able to sleep at night because:

1) They can't hire enough people to monitor everyone's email and internet activity and screen it for crime, it's just not humanly possible, unless they put everybody in the US on the job

and

2) The government is so incompetent they can't even get intelligence right on WMDs in Iraq, let alone get an address change completed in a timely manner on a Social Security account. Even if they were logging everyone's info, they just won't be able to do much with it.

I think this stinks, yes indeedy do, but there's only so much information an agency can scan through, and more being made daily. So I don't see how this is going to do much for them without some other indication of whose info to track. Though I likewise do not see the problem with them getting warrants if they need access to this.

I think this all started when the DOJ went after Microsoft. I believe the real reasons were that the government/(NSA) wanted to get their hands into Bill Gate's OS. I also believe the DOJ's lawsuit was successful in allowing the government to build a backdoor into windows XP. I believe the backdoor was in use BEFORE 911 during RC2 and in fact was already there and being used before October 2001 when the NSA officially started their surveillance program along with the release of XP. I believe the backdoor is built into svchost.exe and is otherwise disguised as being part of XP's Instant Messaging system(udp ports 1025,1026-1031).

You should all be lucky the DOD saw it fit to let it's work on early internet hit the private sector and become what we are all using today. DARPA helped set it up and now the government just wants to make sure it can try to figure out where all these crazies on islamofascist websites are posting/viewing from. I for one am not too alarmed.

Of course it is obvious that before there was the web there were BBS's. It is also obvious they could not be controlled. Thus the web had to be created in order to maintain control...that is why the web came to be. I think it's interesting in seeing which countries utilize the backdoor and which don't. It's obvious that there is intergovernmental cooperation on this backdoor....surveillance for the masses. I'm fairly sure that most subversives are aware that electronic mediums are under surveillance and therefore don't plan attacks using electronic mediums. For this reason, I doubt the motives of those who designed the program. I also have problems with the oversight issue...apparently even subpoenas won't make those responsible give up any operational details...to those who should have oversight. I have problems with the targeting of groups...who decides which groups? Who can guarantee this program won't become an abuse of power? I don't like the idea of the government being able to have access to my passwords, bank and credit card details, and those nudie pictures of my wife...not counting the "crashing" of my computer because I said something 'they' didn't like.

The even funnier thing is,

Many people have and will continue to watch your keystrokes and web site activity "in the name of research and better customer service" issues. Not to mention the mass amounts of unseen programs "i dont care how advanced yer anti-whatever programs are, they will always have programs that will go unseen and will allow them to watch you, and they arent even the government, there just after your SS# and important docs.

that is why I dont use online banking, and use a check card that will never have more then 500 bucks on it. Im still awaiting the next stock market crash and so forth. We have to be very aware of what you do and where you do it at. Super cyber eyes are watching.

Next they will want personal helmet cams with streaming live video directly connected to the DoD.

Originally posted by Agent47
You should all be lucky the DOD saw it fit to let it's work on early internet hit the private sector and become what we are all using today. DARPA helped set it up and now the government just wants to make sure it can try to figure out where all these crazies on islamofascist websites are posting/viewing from. I for one am not too alarmed.

But how do you know they will only stop there? Why would they? They can monitor other civilians for other crimes, not just "terrorism". Thats the problem with this, because it's stated in the bill of rights which applies to EVERYONE in the U.S.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Originally posted by tnangela
I think this all started when the DOJ went after Microsoft. I believe the real reasons were that the government/(NSA) wanted to get their hands into Bill Gate's OS. I also believe the DOJ's lawsuit was successful in allowing the government to build a backdoor into windows XP. I believe the backdoor was in use BEFORE 911 during RC2 and in fact was already there and being used before October 2001 when the NSA officially started their surveillance program along with the release of XP. I believe the backdoor is built into svchost.exe and is otherwise disguised as being part of XP's Instant Messaging system(udp ports 1025,1026-1031).

Well, I would mention the fact that the NSA is not sanctioned for domestic activity, but since everybody knows they do it anyway, I won't. However, I don't believe that Microsoft would just sit by and allow a government hacker to somehow create a "backdoor" to their OS; usually only designers and system admins can do that, and I am equally sure that MS has teams of computer systems engineers checking their products for anything that might allow an outside agency, be it hackers or Uncle Sam from sneaking in and spying on it's customers.

That being said, I am not suprised at all to see this post; in fact what I'm surprised by is that it hasn't happened earlier. Our government has long since stopped being a guardian of our civil liberties, as they are mandated to be by our Constitution and Bill of Rights. When government becomes more concerned with power and control than with the welfare of those that elected them, then it's high time to head for high ground.

It's a stinking shame that it's come to this; hopefully next year there will be a thorough "house cleaning" and these jerks will be out on the street, looking for work. At least we can hope...and pray, like crazy.

I believe there were fights and arguments within the Microsoft campus over this. At the time, one of Microsoft's lawyers made a press statement that 'from this time forward Microsoft will be working closely with the NSA in developing future versions of windows'- THEN nothing else was said about it. I believe someone within the Microsoft campus released the 'corpfiles' and then the window's 'key generator' because they wanted to compromise this surveillance program. I believe that it was because of this backdoor that the government and microsoft wanted to make each installation of XP as uniquely identifiable- thus the activation program. Details of which aren't given BECAUSE IT IS A CLASSIFIED PROGRAM.

Originally posted by Reform America

Originally posted by Agent47
You should all be lucky the DOD saw it fit to let it's work on early internet hit the private sector and become what we are all using today. DARPA helped set it up and now the government just wants to make sure it can try to figure out where all these crazies on islamofascist websites are posting/viewing from. I for one am not too alarmed.

But how do you know they will only stop there? Why would they? They can monitor other civilians for other crimes, not just "terrorism". Thats the problem with this, because it's stated in the bill of rights which applies to EVERYONE in the U.S.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Which is why this ruling should be and certainly will be appealed to the Supreme Court; the ruling by the Circuit Court of Appeals is clearly and overwhelmingly unconstitutional. Any law or court ruling that oversteps the bounds of the Fourth Amendment will almost surely be overturned on appeal; I say "almost" because, when it comes to our judicial system in general and the Supreme Court in particular, surprise verdicts can and often do come about.

But, I am an optimist by nature and this issue is such a no-brainer that I expect (fingers crossed) it will be summarily trashed by the Supremes.

[edit on 7/7/2007 by lightseeker]

Pretty much all I have to say is --

As the Supreme Laws of the Land, the Constitution not only designates certain specific Powers to the Government & (even more specifically) the limits on those Powers, but it also tells everybody where Powers not specifically mentioned are to be granted:

US Constitution; Amendment 10 - ratified 2/7/1795
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So, in reality, the US Government is not only over-reaching the Powers granted (in this case, by violating the 4th Amendment), but also steals Powers from the States & The People. The Patriot Act alone steals Powers from the States to indict & try Citizens...As long as the Feds mention "potential terrorist activity," they can claim Federal Jurisdiction on anything that would otherwise be entirely a local affair.

I agree with the arguments that this is unconstitutional but I just have to wonder at what point do we stop falling back on a 200+ year old document as our nation moves on in age. Are we going to be able to apply the same narrow interpretations of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd 4th etc amendments 500 years from now? Times change and so do nations.

From reading what this "pen register" is and from my own knowledge of web technologies, I don't believe the court's analogy here holds much water.

Whereas in a phone call it may be possible to get phone numbers separately from the call audio itself, I don't think the same bifurcation exists in the world of E-mail and web pages.

I think either the en banc 9th Circuit or the U.S. Supreme Court should review this finding.

Originally posted by Agent47
You should all be lucky the DOD saw it fit to let it's work on early internet hit the private sector and become what we are all using today. DARPA helped set it up and now the government just wants to make sure it can try to figure out where all these crazies on islamofascist websites are posting/viewing from. I for one am not too alarmed.

The ARPANET was continuously being worked (and improved) on, so the DoD in 1983 split off the military portion of ARPANET into MILNET, while control for the other portion (for research and improvement) was given to the academic/scientific research community. It's this portion that became the Internet that we use.

The IAB (Internet Architecture Board) held a 3 day workshop in 1985 with 250 vendors to help popularize the 'Internet' and it's protocols (TCP/IP). At this time, the IAB (the committee charged with oversight of the technical and engineering development of the Internet) was still government dependent and had members of DoD/DARPA on it.

So, you can say that the DoD willingly wanted the technology popularized, adopted and used by the private sector.

Later on ARPANET was shut down and replaced by NSFNet funded by the National Science Foundation.

Only in 1992 the IAB became a government independent, international public entity, and by then the Internet-TCP/IP was long adopted and being used by the private sector.

The HTTP/Web was developed at CERN in Europe.

I think you should instead be saying that we should all be lucky that there's still people, from various countries and backgrounds, interested in researching and developing technological advances for the good of the human race in general and not just for it's own (military) gain.

Originally posted by tnangela
I think this all started when the DOJ went after Microsoft. I believe the real reasons were that the government/(NSA) wanted to get their hands into Bill Gate's OS. I also believe the DOJ's lawsuit was successful in allowing the government to build a backdoor into windows XP. I believe the backdoor was in use BEFORE 911 during RC2 and in fact was already there and being used before October 2001 when the NSA officially started their surveillance program along with the release of XP. I believe the backdoor is built into svchost.exe and is otherwise disguised as being part of XP's Instant Messaging system(udp ports 1025,1026-1031).

The NSA's involvement in Windows precedes Windows XP.

How NSA access was built into Windows:

A CARELESS mistake by Microsoft programmers has revealed that special access codes prepared by the US National Security Agency have been secretly built into Windows. The NSA access system is built into every version of the Windows operating system now in use, except early releases of Windows 95 (and its predecessors). [...]

ADVAPI.DLL works closely with Microsoft Internet Explorer, but will only run cryptographic functions that the US governments allows Microsoft to export. That information is bad enough news, from a European point of view. Now, it turns out that ADVAPI will run special programmes inserted and controlled by NSA. As yet, no-one knows what these programmes are, or what they do.

Dr Nicko van Someren reported at last year's Crypto 98 conference that he had disassembled the ADVADPI driver. He found it contained two different keys. One was used by Microsoft to control the cryptographic functions enabled in Windows, in compliance with US export regulations. But the reason for building in a second key, or who owned it, remained a mystery. [...]

But according to two witnesses attending the conference, even Microsoft's top crypto programmers were astonished to learn that the version of ADVAPI.DLL shipping with Windows 2000 contains not two, but three keys. Brian LaMachia, head of CAPI development at Microsoft was "stunned" to learn of these discoveries, by outsiders.

NSA key to Windows: an open question (CNN September 1999)

I have a question. I think I read something a while back that said someone, not sure who, worked hand in hand with Microsoft to develop Vista. Some government agency.

Is this something I'm making up or did I read that? Anyone know? Maybe it was some speculative crap I read somewhere, I can't remember.

If so, then I wouldn't be surprised there are back doors they can get into.