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Judges OK warrantless monitoring of Web use

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posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 12:31 PM
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The problem I see here is let's say I'm an outspoken critic of the government (let's just imagine for a moment
) Let's say some of what I'm saying is really getting people to think and they start contacting their representatives and let's say I have a little grassroots movement going that is bothering the government.

Now, let's also say I'm an avid ATS poster. I do all sorts of research, from subjects such as making marijuana legal to bomb-making to NAMBLA...

If the government wants to stop me from being an effective critic and forming a movement that might cause trouble for them, they can use my internet searches to put a stop to my criticisms.

They can and they would.




posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 01:01 PM
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LOL NAMBLA!

I have heard them pulling DELETED illegal porno images off a harddrive months after being deleted, they can find most if not all of your deleted files once you empty them from the recycling bin, Harddrive record and do not fully delete unless you electromagnetize them, or burn em. ( smashy smashy ) ( Zappy zappy )

Honestly however far they wanna go and if they ever will go this far, depends on how much they believe you to be a threat or with the "Enemy" They can just simply make things up ( WMDs )

So just keep on searching, looking and learning, and let the fashist goobers try, becuz as mel said

"They can take our lives, But they cant take Our FREEDOM"

An whatabout the folks using multi routers? lol you know they send a signal from one computer in cali, to another one in prauge, to another one in india, to another one in china, while they are safely in texas hacking the planet? Stealing your SS# to buy a terabyte Ram card. and hotpockets and xena tapes.

This is 20% effective talk, and 80% crudmongering. Just like making something illegal, its only gonna stop the honest folks, the morality inept, or just intelectualy curious, or hardcore Gangsta will find the mouse hole and move on thru without a whim or care.





[edit on 8-7-2007 by Tranceopticalinclined]



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 01:12 PM
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Well, I have been telling myself this for years but now it really is time to scrap MS Windows and move to Linux. I'll bet the NSA can't hack that. At least I hope not.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 02:18 PM
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Welcome to the NWO. the government of the US is ripping the Constituion apart in the intrest of "saftey". man, am I glad I live in Canada.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by ShadeWolf
Welcome to the NWO. the government of the US is ripping the Constituion apart in the intrest of "saftey". man, am I glad I live in Canada.


I highly doubt that any place will be safe to live in a few years. Our freedoms are in a fragile state, and no-one is putting up a fight for them. I think the same thing could happen in any other country very easily.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by lightseeker
Well, I have been telling myself this for years but now it really is time to scrap MS Windows and move to Linux. I'll bet the NSA can't hack that. At least I hope not.


The great thing about Linux, and other open source operating systems such as OpenBSD/FreeBSD, is that their code, besides obviously being 'open' (and thus public), no single company or person 'owns' it.

Linux (and others) are developed by a community - everyone can get the code, everyone can modifity either for improvement or for customization.

It's possible that a company (or group of companies/individuals) try to own a Linux/*BSD distribution, such as Novell, but since everyone has access to the code, when the community disagrees with the direction or choices made by those responsible for the distribution, they can (and usually) 'fork' it and begin a new distribution based off the previous one.

So I believe that's the greatest thing about Linux (and others alike), because no matter when or how or if someone tries to 'control' or 'own' open source operating systems, they will never succeed since everything is already public domain.

In that sense, I don't think the NSA (or any other agency) could 'infiltrate' an open source operating system like it happened/happens with Windows. Even if they infiltrated one distribution people would be aware because all the code is public and they'd just switch to some other distribution or fork it and start their own.

I'm sorry for being so out of topic, but regarding security and freedom I think this is an important matter that (average) people (not just geeks/nerds/etc) should start giving some thought.

On a side (and curious) note, the NSA did release a set of modifications for Linux, called SELinux (Security-Enhanced) to improve security measures and mecanisms. It has since been used in many (mainstream) operating systems like Linux, FreeBSD and MacOSX.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by Saturn

Our freedoms are in a fragile state, and no-one is putting up a fight for them.


There is one....his name is Ron Paul..he's a presidential candidate and if you do any research on him, you will find he is the ONLY candidate with a true voting record that adheres soly to the Constitution.

Ron Pauls success is booming...he is now the #3 GOP candidate. The mainstream media is still trying to censor him as they know he speaks the truth.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 04:47 PM
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I bet the Supreme Court will overrule the Ninth Circuit on this one as they often do.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by uberarcanist
I bet the Supreme Court will overrule the Ninth Circuit on this one as they often do.


You mean the 9th Circus court?



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 05:05 PM
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FYI, the gov't doesn't need access into the bowels of XP to determine which websites you are accessing. As the court stated, it's similar to reading the address on a piece of snail mail. So, NSA backdoors don't apply here.

On a side note, I was really surprised to hear that the 9th Circuit issued this ruling, given their background.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
FYI, the gov't doesn't need access into the bowels of XP to determine which websites you are accessing. As the court stated, it's similar to reading the address on a piece of snail mail. So, NSA backdoors don't apply here.


The NSA 'backdoor' on Windows that I was referring to (and the only one I know of) is in the crypto routines.

It would work like this: when you encrypted something on your computer Windows would inject some keys or codes that would allow NSA (or some other agency) to decrypt it would having to know the key or brute-force it.

Regarding the government being able to find out what websites you are accessing, yeah they don't need access to your computer. They could just listen to the traffic that goes out/comes in at the ISPs infrastructures and check the IP address it belongs to.

This court ruling is only to cover the agencies' asses in the future, because it's more than likely that they already do this sort of traffic listening/monitoring right now.

The ECHELON system, or whatever it's called, is most likely tapped into the Internet backbone.


18. Testing of electronic equipment on U.S. telephone circuits.
is one of the CIA's family jewels.

And this was back in the 50s/60s/70s. It's likely that they have been 'testing electronic equipment' on Internet circuits for a while.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 06:02 PM
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As anyone that knows me will attest, I am a firm believer in keeping the Government out of our lives...

Small Government, Happy People...

This is however a case of "Catch 22" and one where we have to be cautious about hypocrisy...

Either the internet is free, or it is restricted....

If it is free, then even the Government has FULL and unfettered access to everything on it. Including what "YOU" put out there.

If it is restricted for the Government then it will be restricted for us...

It is so true that one can not have their cake and eat it too...

I had a Forensics Instructor tell me one time that one should never put anything on the net, emails, blogs etc, that one would not post on a billboard on the highway.

I believe this completely and I could care less if there is a Government agent reading what I am typing right this second...

Fair is fair

Be careful what you ask for you may get it

Both of those apply... Ask for the Government to restrict access and content of the internet, and who do you think will be the first to be restricted?

Semper



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
If it is free, then even the Government has FULL and unfettered access to everything on it. Including what "YOU" put out there.


I can see where you're coming from but this is a matter of privacy, what you are talking about is accessing public information about you and that's not what's at stake here.

You send a letter to a magazine/newspaper/etc and they can publish it. The Government or anyone can read what you wrote in that latter because it's published.

If you put something on the web, either an image, a document or an email, it's published. It's public.

However, if you send a letter to another person, that information is not public. The government can read the contents of that letter but has to get an warrant. Don't you agree with this?

If instead of sending a letter to that person I send her an email, shouldn't the same principle apply? The information is not public, it was sent to that person. It wasn't published.

Of course an email (or any other form of electronic communication) passes through alot of servers until it reaches it's destination. But doesn't also a letter? And it's not legal for the mailman or a government person to read your letter just because it passes through them.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 06:18 PM
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I fail to see the connection between TPTB reading what one might post on the Internet, and monitoring their Internet usage.

I've wondered about this myself, links found right here on this website take me to all sorts of weird and wonderful places. News sources may be of Middle Eastern origin for example, I may follow links in the weaponry forum that take me to sites that deal exclusively with firearms, and in many forums you will find links to site that discuss issues far outside of the mainstream.

I do tend to wonder if these browsing habits could be used against me in some way.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 06:22 PM
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Look on the bright side,

Maybe all this wisdom here on ATS will change the minds of the ones keeping tabs on us and they totally change their minds and be on our side.

Huh? NO?

Can you see Chris Hansen doing a special on people on ATS who dared speak against the government???


"I have to tell you something, I'm Chris Hansen from NBC and we're here doing a special, and you're being taped, however, you're free TO GO!


.....To camp, that is.

DROP THE COMPUTER AND PUT YOUR HANDS UP!! NOW!!!!!



Seriously, this is getting to be a bit much.
Yes, YOU! Leave us alone!



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis

I had a Forensics Instructor tell me one time that one should never put anything on the net, emails, blogs etc, that one would not post on a billboard on the highway.


You make a valid point, Semper, and I agree with you 100%, as far as what we put out on the internet but what if that backdoor is used, not to look at my e-mails or blog entries, but to see what I have on my hard drive, for instance personal diary notes and files that are distinctly private; does that fit your Forensics Instructor's analogy about highway billboards? That is what I am concerned about, Government hackers or worse Big Business hackers going through my personal things, like financial records, etc.

That is where I see potential for real problems and where the fourth amendment comes into play. Just my thoughts on the subject and I thank you for yours, too.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Either the internet is free, or it is restricted....

If it is free, then even the Government has FULL and unfettered access to everything on it. Including what "YOU" put out there.

If it is restricted for the Government then it will be restricted for us...

It is so true that one can not have their cake and eat it too...

I had a Forensics Instructor tell me one time that one should never put anything on the net, emails, blogs etc, that one would not post on a billboard on the highway.
Semper

Excellent point you make, Semper, and a very smart instructor you had.


I think that some would like the people to have total, full, and free access to the internet while restricting the gov't to only that which they have obtained a warrant for. They then want to have this coupled with total privacy for themselves at all times while making whistleblowing on gov't info eligible for a national award.

I don't know if that is possible, or necessarily the best way to do things. It certainly isn't the safest way.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by lightseeker
You make a valid point, Semper, and I agree with you 100%, as far as what we put out on the internet but what if that backdoor is used, not to look at my e-mails or blog entries, but to see what I have on my hard drive, for instance personal diary notes and files that are distinctly private; does that fit your Forensics Instructor's analogy about highway billboards? That is what I am concerned about, Government hackers or worse Big Business hackers going through my personal things, like financial records, etc.

You don't need any surreptitiously designed backdoors to accomplish this. There are commercially available programs that can do that for you.

As far as having access to our financial records, it's all out there right now. Banks and credit card companies know how much we have and where we spend it. The IRS knows where it comes from. Any property you own is a matter of public record. Very little is left to discover, believe me.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 10:55 PM
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I hesitate to get involved in these discussions, because invariably I will be accused of being a pro-government plant or some such, but people really should read the source articles before they respond. A lot of alarmist fears could be avoided.



Originally posted by danx
If you put something on the web, either an image, a document or an email, it's published. It's public.

However, if you send a letter to another person, that information is not public. The government can read the contents of that letter but has to get an warrant. Don't you agree with this?

If instead of sending a letter to that person I send her an email, shouldn't the same principle apply? The information is not public, it was sent to that person. It wasn't published.

This ruling does not give the gov't the freedom to read the contents of your emails. From the source article:


In Friday's ruling, the court said computer users should know that they lose privacy protections with e-mail and Web site addresses when they are communicated to the company whose equipment carries the messages.

Likewise, the court said, although the government learns what computer sites someone visited, "it does not find out the contents of the messages or the particular pages on the Web sites the person viewed."


Emphasis added.



posted on Jul, 8 2007 @ 11:00 PM
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In that sense, I don't think the NSA (or any other agency) could 'infiltrate' an open source operating system like it happened/happens with Windows. Even if they infiltrated one distribution people would be aware because all the code is public and they'd just switch to some other distribution or fork it and start their own.


They don't have to.

Communications to and from a Linux machine are identical to communications to and from a Windows machine.

The government has no need to get into your machine, they just have to watch the information coming in and out of it.

It's called packet sniffing. It's dead easy to do... all a computer has to do is ignore the fact that the information wasn't destined for that computer, and you can receive all packets going to another machine, so long as you are attached to that immediate network... which wouldn't be hard for a government body.


Your rights and freedoms are there to be able to keep the government in check. Should they turn fachist... as they are doing now... those rights were there to allow you to stop them and return the government back to the hands of the people...

You've let them get away with it for too long. The advantage is theirs now. If they keep this control trend up, the ONLY way to take the country back now is through bloodshed. And it's all the Bush parties fault. So you don't have to feel guilty when the inevitable day comes that you have to gun down a fellow countryman, wasn't your fault. You are just doing exactly what the constitution intended you to do.

Then there's the problem of the US spending so much on their military. Essentially, the civilians do not possess weapons that can rival their governments... so should the day come that you have to take your country back, expect ALOT of civilians to die.

The current administration has made it clear that they intend to dominate the public, not work for them. Yet again, we see the pride of freedom, replaced by the security of domination.

And they claim they did it in the name of freedom and security... which figures, that phrase has been repeated through the ages from the Nazis, to the Soviets... even the Romans hinted at that one.



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