Proposal to divide Iraq into regions for Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds getting Congress' attention

Why don't we just let the Iraqi's deal with their own country?

Well, first off Iraq has only existed as a soverign or less than soverign nation for a little under 100 years. After the British were given the mandate of Iraq and Palestine, the Semitic peoples in the region were forced to live under foreign rule once again. Previously they had been under the influence of the Turks and Arabian warlords. At least they were fellow Muslims.

Edited out Palestine mandate and added Iraq mandate which only had a small portion of Iraq in the picture



Edit: added Sykes-Picot Agreement map to show a little earlier history of the region



Now a very foreign power with a very foreign culture comes in and tells them to 'be civilized.' Of course it would be a Western power, especially a Brit who would think up such a ridiculous plan of action. Not that the French did any better with their Syrian Mandate. It is absurd to think that the West has any idea what it is to A). be a muslim and B). live in a desert and survive. One has to live a cuthroat lifestyle if one wishes to live past the age of 30. Let the British properly civilize the Iraqi people so that in time they will be able to run their own country. But they need Western help as they aren't intelligent enough to rule themselves. Remind you of...say India, Africa?

Has colonialism ever worked? We live right now in a colonial country, we were founded by the British. Look where that's gotten us...Even after our Declaration of Independence, our tyrannical rulers have taken us back to the past where the King had absolute authority. Well, Bushie is doing just that. Hillary would be the first Queen of America. I'm sure she'd love that too. Bill could be her new lap dog, just like the old days .

Before the British mandate, 'Iraq' was only three city states that were linked only by trade routes. Afterwards, they were deemed worthy of standing as a nation.

Talk about nation-building. At least Bush wasn't the first one to come up with that concept. He must have learned that at Yale between the late night coke and alcohol binges and the satanic skull and bones rituals . Hahaha.

There are such ridiculous plans out there such as uniting Baghdad and the rest of Western Iraq with Jordan as a "United Hashemite Kingdom," creating a Kurdish state which will probably doom the Kurds, and adding the southern Shia region to Kuwait.

We need to stop building/destroying nations and bring our troops home. Enough is enough.



Sunni proposed state in green



Kurdish proposed state



Another Kurdistan picture

A united Jordan and Western Iraqi state



A grossly underestimated Iraqi civilian casualty estimate map

Cultural Demographics of Iraq



[edit on 5-7-2007 by biggie smalls]

[edit on 5-7-2007 by biggie smalls]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
America doesnt want to leave Iraq until its satisified a 'pro-western' government has emerged.

The problem is that no one is able to define what an victory in Iraq would be or what goals have to be met.

Iraqi's do not want the current government, because its been setup by the west, and is to pro iranian.

Putting Irans meddling in Iraq aside if the Iraqi people didn't want there current government they wouldn't have voted for it.

Why doesnt America ,allow Iraq to setup its own government , while using its soliders to protect its citizens on home soil?

Huh ?
You mean hold fresh elections or install an Saddam clone ?

Surely you understand, terrosim comes from more countries than Iraq, and before you invaded Iraq, there was minimal terrorist in Iraq whom had hit you.

WTF ?
I am perfectly aware of the fact that there are more terrorists in Iraq then there was before the war. By that gauge the war in Iraq has been an total failure.

So the logical that if you leave Iraq, attacks are sure to occur is flawed, because history doesnt suggest this.

Look after Iraq is taken over by Islamic extremists it will become an satellite state of Iran or Syria. Iraq wont try to attack the west using conventional means instead the government of Iraq will provide an haven and funding for terror groups.

Don't worry I am going to remember for an long time being called anti American for being grounded in reality from day one nor will I forgot how the wars supporters insisted in following there emperor blindly.

I cant change the fact that the coalition made the same mistake Hitler did and that is spreading your forces to thinly so that an victory isnt possible in any theatre . All I can do is support an idea that I think will lead to the best outcome . But those people who oppose the partitioning of Iraq needed worry its not going to happen.

Originally posted by xpert11

Huh ?
You mean hold fresh elections or install an Saddam clone ?

Elections wont be nessecary ,whom ever 'pretends' to take charge will be over-run by the strongest milita.
Iraq isnt a democratic state, the people are not democratic. As soon as we leave, the strongest, most ruthlest person will take control.
So why bother pretending an election really matters ( not you, the elected leaders )
Again, Saddam was the ideal man to be in charge of Iraq.
When people carryon about human rihgts and torture its a load of Crap.
There are many more doing much worse than saddam, whom we side with.
And we too are torturing people, just like saddam.
As John Howard stated , Iraq is actaully about securing future oil supplies.
The question I want to ask is,
'' are we prepared to lose our fighting men and women, and accept the deaths of iraqis in their homes so long as we continue to secure that oil "

after all, thats what we've been doing for 5 years now.

I am perfectly aware of the fact that there are more terrorists in Iraq then there was before the war. By that gauge the war in Iraq has been an total failure.

It has, I jsut wish others had your realistic approach, sorry I always assumed you were stating the opposite.

Look after Iraq is taken over by Islamic extremists it will become an satellite state of Iran or Syria. Iraq wont try to attack the west using conventional means instead the government of Iraq will provide an haven and funding for terror groups.

Correct , regardless this is going to occur.
No matter what we do, Iraq is now a terrorist nation.
The longer we stay, the worse it will get.
There's no possible way to remove this terrorist nation, unless we completely wipe it out.
For every child, father or mother we massacre, means another life time of 'terrorist intentions' against us.

Like I said, our only option is to execute Bush and his Admin, very publically for the deception we ALL know they did which tricked us into invading their country.

I'm disappointed to hear peole suggest that Mr. Bush should be dragged out in to the street and shot in front ofa bank of t.v. cameras. thos of you who want retribution for whatever reason are going to get it when the voters go to the polls in '08. The back-lash against the Republicans will hit hard enough to propell Hillary Clinton in to power with a dominant Democrat majority in both House and Senate.

The political blood-letting that takes place on her watch wll be more than the "show of justice" that you're asking for. Even if we did as you suggest, that act would not slow down or deter the extremists who wish to do us hard. If anything, it would make the bolder. We'd prove our weakenss to them, and inspire them to see how much more they could get from us without breaking a sweat.

The day will come when you'll curse Hillary and the donkey she rode in to town on. Until thath appens, let's tune dow nteh anger and treat this like the discussion that it should be. We've all represented our viewpoints here. Let's debate them on their merits.

I dunno about that,

we've hung people for much less....

And Mr Bush and co have done some irrepairable damage to the United states, to western civilisation along with the hundereds of thousands of innocent people that have been killed because of his actions, which he deliberatley orchestrated through lying, all for greed.

Terrorism will never stop, had we of entered Iraq or not.
It will never cease, wether we leave or not.
But atleast we will be proving to the world, that we're equal in excuting madmen who maniuplate our country as well, not just the ones that come from other nations, ie hitler & co.

I mean, would you be saying the same thing, if you were a German citizen in 1944?

Ermm, the US wasn't supposed to be there in the first place. Why weren't the troops withdrawn as soon as it was clear there was no WMD's? I thing Bush has our troops performing the part of a patsy, they occupy a very dangerous area in another country, have been sent in in some cases under equipped, have been forced to diversify rather than specialise as they are supposed to and they have been given an impossible mission all so Bush Jr can milk the proverbial war cash cow. Anybody heard any more about missing billions? No, they've been squirreled away in the bottomless pockets of the elite.
Pull the troops out. If the Iraqis choose to kill each other rather than rebuilding it is their problem. I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking the Iraqis are incapable of thought and decision making. Sunnis Shiites and kurds were all there before the war.

I'm not ready to equate the crimes of the Bush43 administration to those of the Nazis. I DO blame the Republican party for a lot of things, and I do know they suffered for it '06 and they'll probably continue to pay for their mistakes well in to the next decade. History won't be kind to Mr. Bush, and I'm sure that a lot will come out after he's out of office. I think we can find better ways to 'prove' our good intent to the rest of the world. the current crisis has been a generation in the making, and it'll take a whole 'nother generation to make it right. We can and we should do this with ballots instead of bullets.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
I'm not ready to equate the crimes of the Bush43 administration to those of the Nazis.

I agree. The parallels are not precise.

But I do believe history will grant Bush43 the distinction on having materially altered the course of our nation away from its constitutional roots. A distinction he will equally share with a complicit legislature and a languid judiciary.

I fear that long before things get better, they will get far worse... and when it's all done, I only hope justice, freedom, and our republic will prevail beyond these perilous times.



[edit on 5-7-2007 by loam]

I do not believe the Arab world, will accept us simply letting Bush slide into history.
Someone has to pay for the blood flowing in baghdads streets, for the radiation left behind in the tank battles, for the civil war, for the orphaned children, for the destruction of medical facilities, educational facilities or lifestyle aspects..

Holding George W. Bush and Dick Cheney responsible is whats needed.
Had anyone else of been in power, the corporate agender would not of been played to such a horrible extent.

No, I believe executing them both is the only honourable thing America society can do.
A message needs to be sent that the American people do not condone hijackings of government, for corporate gain that result in the deaths of hundereds of thousands.

Let these mad men go, and your telling the world you dont mind, so long as they leave after their 8yrs are up.

And thats why the muslim world will seek revenge.

The one thing that we can be assured of is that collectively the free world is going to pay in terms of global security for the Iraq blunder. As for the Bush - Nazi comparison I don't buy it being blinded by your political ideology and incompetent isnt an crime. If incompetence was an crime there wouldn't be any politicians.

Im not saying Bush and the Nazi's, im saying Bush and Hitler.
Both men used dramatic events to trick the public, and governemnts into following a course of action so drastic, under normal circumstances it wouldnt be allowed.
Both are creating reasons to topple nations, that didnt deserve it.

Gosh Agit8dChop, you make sparkling clear points. Not sure if I'd be so bold as you can be, but shoot you say it pretty-much the way I'd agree it is Sir.
Most importantly, Oil has everything to to with the invasion, Not Saddam.

Dallas

With respect, I still don't see how Bush43 compares to Adolf Hitler. I understand your anger and your hate, but I'm not on board with the comparison. Having said that, I'd like to point out that we can't and we shouldn't call for the execution of our public officials to placate people who would not under any circumstances slow or stop their agenda in the face of the "honor" that we might somehow show by stooping to such a low and primitive...judicial statement.

Bear in mind that if we did such a thing, the standard as applied by that 'law,' would permit your or I to be killed for vastly lesser offenses. As a public figure, I could and would be taken away for my views under this presupposed doctrine of "honor." It goes without saying that they'd be quick to deal with me so that they could get to...the rest of you.

We can and we should deplore what has happened. We should vote. If the majority feels that its in order, we should vote out so many Republicans that they'll have to be labelled an endangered species. If the voters feel that its in order, we should all send our money and cast our votes for third party candidates. We should not try to change the minds of extremists with the spilling of blood.

Even if we can't bring these people to justice in our courts, we can ostracize them. We don't have to book them for speaking engagements. We don't have to buy their books. We don't ever have to say anything nice about them. Long after they elave office, we can keep digging for the truth of what they did so that it enters the historicla record. We have options, if we are strong enough to use them.

[edit on 6-7-2007 by Justin Oldham]

I see what your saying Justin, and always enjoy your views.
But allowing these people to die in their sleep, tucked in their satin sheets while eating decent food and using proper toilet facilities and enjoying medical aid is to much.

No, I will not allow these men to drift into the night like average humans.
Men wouldnt allow such events to happen, especailly for $$, they deserve the death that they inflicted on Saddam, and that they inflict on the innocent Iraqi people.
any less, isnt enough.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
The most common sense thing to do in thiscase is to step back and hope that one daythe iraqis will come to their senses. You know how it is. Some things you just have to do for yourself. If there is going to be a split, the Iraqis will have to figure it out for themselves. If they're going to learn how to get along, they'll still have to figure THAT out for themselves.

I have to disagree. Pulling out of Iraq won't end the conflict, it will just make the country a target for its neighbors. It may even end up being taken over by a non-moderate regime. That, I think, serves the interests of neither the Iraqi people nor the region.

I think once we set foot on the ground we entered into an obligation to see it through. I think we need to as a practical matter to prevent possible instability and to show that we'll finish what we started.

The administration messed this one up bad, and it is for that reason that we are obligated to fix it.

I find it strange that the proposal is for us (U.S.) to cut Iraq up into smaller pieces that are easier to control and manipulate against each other. A major part of the turmoil in Iraq is the fact that British imperialists lost control over the region and then ended up drawing lines in the sand in order to maintain influence in certain regions.

Not that I think what Saddam did in Gulf War 1 was justified in trying to take Kuwait, but from a certain standpoint it makes sense, because Iraq is an oil rich state with very little access to export without outside assistance. Even in my mind in 1991 it seemed strance that Kuwait had a larger coastline than all of Iraq.

What is even weirder is that Shrub is supposedly signing us into North American Unions, creating a superstate in the process that would have to create a uniform law of the land from Canada to Mexico. I hope this is not true...

In my opinion, cutting it up only brings the whole middle east conflict into Iraq, as long as Americans are there egging them on. There have been several threads recently on ATS that have made me very worried. One of which discusses how there are more Private, Blackwater types (180,000) on the ground than American troops (160,000).

I honestly think that the main reason we are in Iraq is so that the price of oil can be risen to the point where American Oil deposits in Colorado and Wyoming will be cost effective to pump. I remember hearing as a kid growing up in Colorado that there was more oil in Colorado than Texas, but that it was too expensive to get out. I believe it is in Oil Shale?

Imagine if we had not ever gone to Iraq, we had really finished up business in Afghanistan first, and all the money we have invested paying Blackwater types could have gone to solar energy technologies or hydrogen fuel cells. I don't know exactly, but I would feel better at night knowing that my taxes/national debt was going to make positive change and a cleaner planet than to hunt terrorists who only fight us because we won't let them control there own natural resources....

DocMoreau

For god sakes who cares anymore? We need to get out of these stupid sand filled countries and worry about our own problems. So what if the whole region breaks out into civil war? It's NOT the USA's problem. Nobody held our hand through our tough times, so screw them. I'm so sick of this war in Iraq. Iraq has nothing to do with me. I don't care about Iraq or Iraqi's. **** Iraq.

We NEVER should have messed with Saddam. He held his country down man, Saddam was a G. Yeah he may have been one of the crulest dictators in history..but he obviously knew how to keep his people in check. He had peace in iraq for 10 years. USA has been fighting there almost that long, and can't even stop roadisde bombs.

If all those muslims respect is killing and destruction, then for god sakes get another dictator in there. Get someone who will do some genocide, becuase obviously diplomacy ain't working. The problem is that those countrys are so poor, and so uneducated..that there's no reasoning with them. It's like trying to talk to retarted children. For evey one person that "converts" to democracy, there's 10 more that pick up guns and become terrorists in the name of allah. That entire region is useless and should just be nuked.

There values are so far behind the rest of the world, that i don't know if anything short of a nuke will bring peace to that region. All they do is fight over a mound of sand dirt, and argue over which version of the Koran is right. It's pathetic and i'm sick of it. There's no reason to send good USA civillians to die in a 3d world, backwards country, that is hell bent on destroying itself.

There's more than enough problems we need to take care of HERE IN AMERICA. There's no reason to be tied up in a 6 year war in region of the world that barley even has running water or real houses.

The creation of Kurdistan is a very old plan.

The sentiment is noble that we should stay in the fight, but let's be clear about what that fight realy is. Iraqis are killing Iraqis with help from Iran and Syria. We lack the political will and the miitary committments to enforce our will in this matter. We can't change their minds. they'll go around us, or through us. to get at each other.

We have screwed up. No doubt about it. If we stay, we will only continue to make things worse by inspiring more anti-American hate. Let's be clear on what that hate is. We're talking about the kind of hate that grants a blessing to actions far worse that what we've done. Any hate which suggests that murder and genocide are to be rewarded is not to be encouraged.

Here on the home front, we risk seeing a total upset of our political institutions. We're going to see the gutting of the Republican party. We've already seen the death of small government advocacy and fiscal responsibility. We already risk the primacy of one political party. If we pursue this much further, we risk becoming that which we are pledged to stop. The simle truth is that we will have no choice but to go back to the M.E. one day. Do we go back as liberators? Or, do we go back as conquerors?

If we do not moderate our behaviors now, we will become sich a force for darkness in the world that we'll have to be put down in much the same way as Germany or Japan was. We've made a lot of mistakes, and it will take a generation to own up to them. It'll ake another generation beyond that to live with the burden and then move on. As we do that...if we can do that...men like Bush and Cheney will be so ostracized from society that they'll wish for death.

Stop and think about that for a moment. How many Germans and Japanese had to live many long years past the defeat of their regimes? How many of them stayed locked away in their own homes to be eaten slowly by a crawling shame? Social forces can be more cruel than any knife when the person being cut to pieces realizes what their legacy is and will always be. Nobody wants to die knowing that they are one of history's villains.

This subject was already brought up a while back. The Turks have already made it clear that if the kurds get their own region/land/country that they would invade them. I dont know the history of the Turks and Kurds so i have no clue as to why they would want to control the Kurds. Saudi Arabia pushing in from the south and becoming a major influence there and possible annexing that part of Iraq. Iran would support Shiites in the east (which they are already doing) and possibly annex the region.


Saudia Arabia and Iran arent good friends. I heard Saudia Arabia was talking about going nuclear since Iran was. It would be really bad if they shared a border. Since we are the protector of our oil master Saudia Arabia this would mean this area would become just like what is going on in Korea.








Splitting Iraq up is probably the worst option.

[edit on 6/7/07 by Pfeil]