Serpent mythology

I'm not familiar with those myths, but I'm interested nonetheless. If we assume that the biological makeup of our brain, and the realisation of our own consciousness are linked - ie evolved together - then there should be evidence of this duality within our psychology.

For a quick understanding of how we are built in duality and think using duality, you only have to look at species being split into male and female. Psychologically we are unable to give value to an object or its properties without measuring on a scale, the ends of this scale is the polarity I'm speaking about. Take beauty, how can rate somethings beauty without first measuring it against your perception of ugly? How can you think someones intelligent without first encountering stupidity, and vice-versa. I think by understanding the psychology we can better understand religious thought and the duality of heaven and hell, or the twin serpents.

The serpent seems to be a universal archetype thats for sure. I would equate the concept to the Holy Spirit, because its the energy travelling between the two polarities. In the Egyptian 'Book of Going Forth By Day' (aka. Book of the Dead), the soul of the deceased is often transported through the netherworld on a giant serpent boat. This boat often has wings. By understanding the idea of the serpent being the divine spirit in all things, and the wings symbolising the Truth, then we can arrive at an extremely deep and symbolic image. One that seems to relate to consciousness, which is not far fetched given the context of the Book of the Dead.

I'm not religious in any sense of the word, but I am extremely spiritual, and this occured when I encountered entheogens.

[edit on 7-11-2007 by Trojan_libido]

Is this resemblance purely coincidental. The first picture is a heraldic symbol from Italy used in Milan (it is also used on the alfa romeo badge) the second picture is of Quetzacoatl from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis.
The Biscione in the Milan coat of arms was being used in the 11th century onwards i think, they would have had no way of knowing of the Quetzacoatl image at that time.

Biscione



Quetzacoatl



Does anyone else think the similarity is odd considering that the New World had yet to be discovered at this time (supposedly).
Or am i seeing things that aren't really there.

The serpent (snake) or Ouroburos

The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end

The serpent seems to be the all encompassing symbol of self, the universe (or galaxy), infinity, and cyclicality that has had a deep meaning thru out the millennia amongst the various civilizations who have used it, with some slight variations in interpretation.

It may have had its earliest usage in Ancient Egypt having been passed on to and adopted by other civilizations.

This one of the Milky Way resembles a dragon.

Very interesting thread.. I'll post some of my own research later when it's not 3AM, but I especially find those last two of the man being consumed by a serpent interesting.. those two images are startlingly similar, even down to the shape of the serpent's head...

It was mentioned in this thread about the greeks and the symbol for medicine being the inter-twined snakes,
however i would also like to mention that this very same symbol was found relatively commonly in Sumerian carvings and sculptures.

reply to post by 11one11



Although the "milky way" is looked upon as the snake swalloing it's own tail.

That's not all there is to the "snake" or "reptilian" mythology.

One might even ponder knowing the reality behind the reptilian mythology:

Did the "milkyway" get persumed to appear as a snake/dragon because that's what it looks like or because it was those beings that gave the hidden knowledges of the time clock as apectual to the movement of the skys to mankind.?

@ Inannamute, i'm glad i'm not the only one that see's that similarity between those two depictions. As you pointed out its not only the swallowing of the man but also the crown on the Biscione figure and the feathers on the Quetzacoatl figure could easily be seen as symbolising a regal figure.
Now are the Serpents/Snakes swallowing the man or are they giving birth to man!! Remember the snake is seen as a symbol of rebirth!
I'd be interested to read what you have researched Inannamute.


@ AmmonSeth, you are probably thinking of Ningizzida or Zu, the examples of Ningizzida/Zu coiling around a rod are the oldest such depictions of dual snakes entwined around a rod found to date. Here's an example.



I'm sure there are older depictions of Serpent or Snake deity's found as Petroglyphs or Pictographs but probably not as twin snakes. So did the Sumerians invent the twin snake mythology or was that borrowed from the Ubaidian culture?

www.geocities.com

According to one theory, all primordial serpents of myth are derived from a Sumerian arch-serpent in subterranean waters, whose name was Zu. This old Sumerian serpent-god, whose other name is Ningizzida, is the ultimate archetype of the lord of the watery abyss from which mortal life arises and to which it returns. We might note that among the Celts the underworld serpent, Sucellos, represented the same dark power. Later, we meet the great serpent by the name of Tiamat, also named Papohis [ later to be found as the Biblical Leviathan]. In the beginning there were only the mingled waters of Abzu, the abyss of sweet water and Tiamat, the serpent of salt water oceans.Abzu and Tiamat were the parents of the first Babylonian gods, Lahmu and Lahamu, who were the grandparents of the great gods Anu and Ea.

mojo

Many Cultures throughout time, and seemingly a world appart share common stories of "Snake" or "dragon" men stories. So the question needs be asked. Why and How do peoples a world appart in acient prehistoirc days share a common understanding on a mythical creature?


So point to this as evidence suporting the stories written in sumaria and other records of a "reptilian humaniod" race of "space people". This is the origin for the "reptilians" in historic fact.


Sure what paranoid people of these days have truned into a "crazy man" Joke with the NWO BS, leaves people to want to stay away from the term "reptilians". In history there is strong evidence this event did happen.

reply to post by mojo4sale


it says serpent not reptilian, so i can post

hey mojo, i like how the mayan headress equals the equivalant of the crown the serpent wears in the first photo

many cultures are flooded with serpent dieties and even of the actual flood itself

i think its all connected somehow, just distorted over time and lost and found and interpreted all over again

Originally posted by MurderCityDevil

it says serpent not reptilian, so i can post

Originally posted by MurderCityDevil

hey mojo, i like how the mayan headress equals the equivalant of the crown the serpent wears in the first photo

That crown/headdress and the swallowing or giving birth to man make it more than just a coincidence in my mind. And if the Biscione is a copy of Quetzacoatl then my question is how is that possible? The New World had yet to be discovered.
The link i posted with the picture states that it's assumed that the Biscione figure was taken from a Saracen heraldic figure when they were defeated in battle. So is there a link between Saracens and the New World, or do these images just appear, startingly similar around the world with no apparent connection?

Originally posted by MurderCityDevil

i think its all connected somehow, just distorted over time and lost and found and interpreted all over again

I agree, i do think that all the Serpent/Snake deity's and myths are coneected somehow.

[edit on 9/1/08 by mojo4sale]

reply to post by mojo4sale


yeah but to me the whole "draco" thing is a bit much esp. with shapeshifting youtube monsters

lock your daughters up men!

reply to post by MurderCityDevil


i certainly dont mean its connected because theres a race of Reptilians.

I think its connected because there was interaction between the Old and the New world long before modern scholars believe.
Dont get me wrong i think that nearly all cultures around the world had their own Serpent/Snake mythology, but examples of how similar some of the depictions of these deity's are lead me to believe that there has been some cross cultural tainting.

Originally posted by mojo4sale
reply to post by MurderCityDevil

 

i certainly dont mean its connected because theres a race of Reptilians.

I think its connected because there was interaction between the Old and the New world long before modern scholars believe.
Dont get me wrong i think that nearly all cultures around the world had their own Serpent/Snake mythology, but examples of how similar some of the depictions of these deity's are lead me to believe that there has been some cross cultural tainting.

i think also too that alot of ancient culture are flooded with symbology as they had no real way of recording in a ldefinite language way what they were seeing

to me its like ezekiels wheel was an obvious UFO but to him it was a flaming chariot

The stone-frieze found at Chalcatzingo Mexico depicting a human being swallowed by a serpent may be much older than Quetzalcoatl. I think it dates back to the era of the Olmec. This serpent doesn't have a crown but it does have horns and side molars that snakes don't have. The Bisione serpent has ears (where the horns would be) and side molars, something snakes do not have. Why does the swallowing serpent not always resemble a classic snake?



Another vantage point of the Olmec devouring serpent

Chalcatzingo

Chalcatzingo from wikipedia

reply to post by lostinspace



Awesome find lostinspace, thanks for that.
Love to know if they have been able to date that, i will check out the links you provided.
Now if i could find something similar from the middle east, europe, asia or africa, either petroglyphs or pictographs/rock art there'd be a good case for cross cultural contamination i would think, well before the recognised mix of Old and New world cultures.

And you asked "Why does the swallowing serpent not always resemble a classic snake? "
I think because as was pointed out to me early on in this thread that the Serpent mythology was based around marine or aquatic animals and Snake mythology around your "friendly" everyday landbased Snake.

That would be my guess.

Cheers mojo.


[edit on 10/1/08 by mojo4sale]

reply to post by mojo4sale



The crown on the serpents head often represents the milkway and date if you check, it looks like the snake swallowing it's own tail appears to have a crown also.

Perhaps it's saying that at that time, that is what happens, mankind is swallowed up.

That next date is Dec21 2012.

The petroglyph lostinspace posted would have beeen made between 900bc - 500bc approximately.

wiki/Chalcatzingo

Chalcatzingo is estimated to have been settled as early as 1500 BCE. The inhabitants began to produce and display Olmec-style art and architecture around 900 BCE.[1] At its height between 700 BCE and 500 BCE, Chalcatzingo's population is estimated at between five hundred and a thousand individuals. By 500 BCE it had gone into decline.

The Visconti's first started using the Biscione as an emblem around 1150AD

wiki/Visconti

The House of Visconti was an Italian noble family of the High and Late Middle Ages. Their origins are found in the Republic of Pisa in the mid twelfth century.

wiki/Biscione

The Biscione (‘large snake’), also known as the Vipera (‘viper’ or in Milanese as the Bissa), is a heraldic charge showing in Argent an Azure serpent in the act of giving birth to a human: usually a child and sometimes described as a Moor. It has been the emblem of the Italian Visconti family for around a thousand years. Its origins are unknown.
However it has been claimed that it was taken from the coat of arms of a Saracen killed by Ottone Visconti during the crusades.

Ok, the Visconti's may have taken the emblem from the Moors after defeating them in battle.

wiki/Moors

Although the Moors came to be associated with Muslims, the name Moor pre-dates Islam. It derives from the small Numidian Kingdom of Maure of the third century BC in what is now Morocco.[1] Yet the origins of the word Moor remain unclear (see the Etymology section below).[2] The name came to be applied to people of the entire region. "They were called Maurisi by the Greeks," wrote Strabo, "and Mauri by the Romans."[3] During that age, the Maure or Moors were trading partners of Carthage, the independent city state founded by Phoenicians.

The moors were trading partners of Carthage which was established by Phoenicians.

Phoenician civilization was an enterprising maritime trading culture that spread across the Mediterranean during the first millennium BC, between the period of 1200 BC to 900 BC.

And there is some evidence, circumstantial only, that the Phoenicians had visited the America's or perhaps even traded with the indigineous populations. Could this be where the cross cultural contamination occured with these snake symbols?

The timeline fits fairly closely, the Quetzacoatl and Biscione symbols have definate similarity's, there is connection of the biscione image back from the Visconti to the Moors and then to the Phoenicians, the Phoenicians were maritime traders without peer at that time and would have been capable of making such a journey, there is a legend of the horse and rider statue pointing west on an island in the Azores that resembled a Moor, the Azores would be a perfect resupply point for fresh water for any expedition to the America's.
Could i theorize that the Phoenicians maybe with their Moor trading partners traded with the natives in Central and South America, and being that the Phoenicians also believed in a serpent/snake deity, liked the imagery of Quetzacoatl swallowing the man that they took that imagery back to the Old World with them where the Moors used it as a heraldic symbol and from there the Visconti's then used it as there own symbol when they defeated the Moors/Saracens in battle.

So are those Serpent symbols proof of contact between the Old and the New World long before it is generally accepted?

Links pertaining to the Phoenicians and the discovery of the New World:

www.cartage.org

phoenicia.org

library.csustan.edu



[edit on 10/1/08 by mojo4sale]

reply to post by mojo4sale


I couldn't agree with you more mojo4sale (No pun intended.) I am sold on the idea that the Phoenicians traded with the peoples of central America. The evidence is so overwhelming. Maybe if Tyre wasn't ransacked by Alexander the Great we would have found more evidence of Phoenicia's visits to the Americas.

Siege of Tyre


Another added similarity of these cultures is the Cross. I remember you mentioned the time of the Crusades. Those knights wore the classic + shaped cross. The cross in central America is also found everywhere. Even the Olmec devouring serpent has a cross on it but that one looks like an x. You can see the x, on the serpent at Chalcatzingo, on the alternate link I posted. A while back I found a Carthaginian mosaic on-line that showed a + symbol with a horse in one quadrant and three other items in the other quadrants. The + symbol was surrounded by a circle. Someday I'll find that again. I'll look on the threads I created in the past.

When you read about the layout of Atlantis, it is described as a cross surrounded by many circles. I think the majority of the Atlantis legend was invented by the Phoenicians or Carthaginians. I think it was their dream empire or something. I do believe that some landmass sank in the Atlantic or Caribbean that contributed to the legend.

We could go on and on.


I found the link to the Carthaginian Cross image. I was wrong about it being an exact +. It's a little offset like the church cross. There are two horses at the bottom and two birds at the top.

Link to Phoenician mosaic at Carthage

Phoenicians are responsible for the Atlantis legend ATS thread
(Don't hate me because I spelled "responsible" wrong in that thread. You can't fix a subject line.)


[edit on 10-1-2008 by lostinspace]

[edit on 10-1-2008 by lostinspace]

reply to post by mojo4sale


currently I'm studying mezzo-american cultures & Egyptian culture in school & working on a phd in Egyptology. Egyptian used the serpent as a symbol of kingship & put it on a lot of jewelry & what not, but the snake is also the god of chaos & destruction, Apophis. Egyptians have good gods & bad gods represented as a serpent & so it's neither good nor bad to them.
A lot of mezzo-american cultures had a feather serpent god, Quetzalcoatl & The Vision Serpent was also a symbol of rebirth in Mayan mythology. The Vision Serpent goes back to earlier Maya conceptions, and lies at the center of the world as the Mayans conceived it. "It is in the center axis atop the World Tree. Essentially the World Tree and the Vision Serpent, representing the king, created the center axis which communicates between the spiritual and the earthly worlds or planes. It is through ritual that the king could bring the center axis into existence in the temples and create a doorway to the spiritual world, and with it power".
In the Inca's culture it was part of their 'trinity'. The Chakana (or Inca Cross) symbolizes for Inca mythology what is known in other mythologies as the World Tree. it represented the underworld. Ancient cultures are my specialty so i'm sorry if i over did the info... I tend to do that...

Nearly every Aboriginal tribe in Australia believe that the Rainbow Serpent was the creator . However there is one tribe in northern nsw Australia called Bundjalung Nation who say the Dirrawong ( Goanna Monitor Lizard ) was the creator who bought them rain life etc one day the Dirrawong and the rainbow serpent got into a big fight due to the fact that the serpent who gave life was also taking life , in the scuffle the snake bit the lizard , so the goanna then engaged chasing the rainbow serpent , the serpent fled out to the sea , and the goanna laid himself to rest on the headland for all time to wait and see if the serpent would return , It is known now as Goanna Head land ( Evans Head NSW Australia ) . It is said That the serpent fled that far south that it rested it self and became what we know today as New Zealand the Bundalung tribes were the first in Australia to be given back lands and sacred spots they hold dearly there is a beach named chinamans beach and on the other side of that you have New Zealander beach both are situated on Goanna Head land and every track , paths are named Dirrawong Reserve. Look It up the tale I have told is much shorter.