Serpent mythology

Originally posted by dnsmarie
MYTHOLOGY?! whom cares about mythology.

well we do Marie thats why we are discussing it
in future perhaps you could waste someone else time
thanks

Thanks for that Marduk, you realise that link does conflict with your earlier post.
You also suggested earlier, jokingly i think, that they did not have much idea of zoology in the past, but perhaps they had more than we give them credit for? The feathered Serpent, reptiles related to birds? birds related to dinosaurs? A tenuous connection maybe?


The wyvern is another that i had forgotten.

Look a wiki link, just for you Marduk.

The name "wyvern" derived from the Saxon word Wivere, which means "serpent". The French wyvern is known as the Vouivre.
The wyvern can be regarded as a type of or similar to a dragon. Depictions often include two legs and two wings[1]. Sometimes there are eagle's claws on the wingtips. The rest of its appearance can vary, such as appearing with a tail spade or with a serpent-like tail.
Wyvern supporters in the arms of the Borough of Vale Royal
Variants of the wyvern include the sea-wyvern, which has a fish-like tail. The wyvern has a similar appearance to another mythical creature, the cockatrice.

originally posted by uberarcanist It's not accurate to suggest that Western Christians consider serpents evil. In fact, the bronze serpent erected by Moses in the Old Testement is used as a metaphor by Jesus to foreshadow his crucifixion in the New!

I would suggest that the majority of Western civilisation would associate snakes with fear and evil. It was the snake that introduced man to sin also according to Christianity.

Originally posted by Marduk
well thats the whole point of language
meanings change depending on the context
before greek and latin all these creatures were known by their own names
then went through a revival as serpents and then in the common era they became dragons.

Sure but why were they given those greek and latin names, because of the way they were described and drawn by the previous civilisations suggested that they were snakelike or serpentine in appearance so i think to discuss the mythology of Serpents in ancient history you have to also theorise that alot of them would be influenced by snakes, or have been the inspiration. Yes?

@dnsmarie, i would contact you for more information but i barely understood what you posted, could you be more specific or legible.

cheers mojo

The Serpent is an "archetype." A "a collectively inherited unconscious idea, pattern of thought, image, etc., universally present in individual psyches." And "an inherited pattern of thought or symbolic imagery derived from the past collective experience and present in the individual unconscious."



Out of all the basic symbols of which humans have paid attention to in their religions in the past 45,000 or so years, the serpent is definetly one of the more popular icons. Long before people noticed the shadow from their obalisks stops on Dec. 22 and 'rises' again from an apparent death 3 days later; people have noticed that snakes are continuously reborn by shedding their skin. Here the theme of resurrection might be traced back to a time before calendars; and may be where the Ouroborus enters the psyche. Also, the snake is born of an egg. And the idea of a Cosmic or World Egg, the universe being born of an egg, or a god being born from an egg, is also an old theme. Of course not all the eggs belonged to snakes, some were birds.

Phanes-Dionysus born from the Orphic Egg. Mithras, born of a stone, and just packed with symbolism!




The snake crawls on its belly. Its a base animal representing the lowest of the low. And it is often opposed by the winged creature above it. The above vs. below symbolism of found all over the place and sometimes means as above - so below. Or conversly, the above is the goal and we start at the below.



For example the kundalini serpent in our chakras open from bottom to top. Represented by a snake coiled at the base of your spine. (And it moves up past your 33 degrees, oops I mean the 33 vertebrae or bones in your spinal column...)




Some statue called Libertus I think.. lots of symbols here like the egg and serpent and wings.



Well, I could go on and on, but I wont for once! Heres some links I just found:
altreligion.about.com...
altreligion.about.com...
The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky - The Mundane Egg
Serpent Mounds, Egg stuff

Originally posted by ViolatoR

Hi sorry for a bit of a derailment here, but do you (or anyone else) have any more info on this statue?

I have been googling for a while and nothing comes up. Nothing correct anyways.

the reference and symbolism of serpents throughout history has always made me interested, also how the serpent is also a symbol for our dna helix

since when has it been a symbol for the dna helix
thats absurd

Originally posted by Marduk
since when has it been a symbol for the dna helix
thats absurd

One of the anthropologist who drank the Yage drink of south american shaman had visions of winged snakes crawling out of his spine and projecting a 'movie' of the history of humanity, and their origins. Coming out of the "hallucination" the shaman described what the man had seen. In order for the shaman to have known what this guy saw, the "hallucination" would have to have been a real journy of the consciousness, and not dependant on preconceived notions or childhood memories, or whatever other explanation people would propose for shamanic visions.

The second and main point is that the anthropologist later realized that the strange serpents that crawled out of him were perfect visualizations of DNA; a shape he was not familiar with at the time (this may have been before the shape was known).

On a similar note the scientist who found the shape of DNA did so while "hallucinating" on '___'.

right so that clears that up nicely
apparently you have to be on drugs for it to be credible
I'll pass

Well, yes you would have to have an altered state of consciousness which is facillitated nicely by several plants, and also other methods such as rythmic dancing or drumming at 300 beats per minute, and so on.

All I'm saying is that the archetypical serpent shape can be found in the higher levels of consciousness where all things originate. And to at least one anthropologist, the tiny snakes crawling out of his spine were identical to the shape of DNA.

For example, if you drink Ayahuasca, (note to mods: I'm not telling people to open their minds so please don't erase this..) you will see the "spirit" of Ayahuasca. She is represented always by a giant serpent or a pile of serpents. If you drink it today, you will see the same thing people saw thousands of years ago. So, it's not a product of your imagination, or anything else; it's real. And from the 'spirit world' the serpent along with other basic icons have permeated our collective unconscious and religious beliefs.

Nice posts ViolatoR, thanks.

I have seen articles relating the dna helix to snake/serpent's, but usually from new age/ greeny sources. Not that that's a bad thing.
On an interesting side note dreams containing snakes and or serpents (making sure theres a distinction for Marduk), are considered as positive/significant indicators of events in a persons life.

The feathered serpent mythology especially interests me. Where does the feather symbolism originate from.
Did our ancestors have knowledge of now extinct snakes that had different morphology to what we know?
Were there species of animals that resembled these mythological creatures?
Are they just purely fantastical creatures from their imaginations?
Are they in fact part of our pysche?
Is the relationship between dinosaurs, birds and snakes/serpents more evident to our ancestors than we give them credit for?
Or just story's to scare the kids and keep them quiet while the adults were out sacrificing non believers.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Cheers mojo.

[edit on 29/6/07 by mojo4sale]

Originally posted by mojo4sale


The feathered serpent mythology especially interests me. Where does the feather symbolism originate from.
Did our ancestors have knowledge of now extinct snakes that had different morphology to what we know?
Were there species of animals that resembled these mythological creatures?

lol
Quetzalcoatl as you know means "feathered serpent"
the clue is in the name
Quetzal = The name "quetzal" is from Nahuatl quetzalli, "large brilliant tail feather"
its the name of a specific bird who's tail; feathers were used to adorn Amerindian chiefs


has nothing to do with real snakes with wings

Originally posted by Marduk
lol
Quetzalcoatl as you know means "feathered serpent"
the clue is in the name
Quetzal = The name "quetzal" is from Nahuatl quetzalli, "large brilliant tail feather"
its the name of a specific bird who's tail; feathers were used to adorn Amerindian chiefs

has nothing to do with real snakes with wings

Sure but i was under the impression that the Feathered Serpent myth dates to long before the Aztec, and why would a serpent be given the feathers of a bird?
The Feathered Serpent is also known by many names not just Quetzlcoatl, some of these names predate that, Kukulkán, Gukumatz dont they.
Did the olmec name for the Feathered Serpent also mean tail feathers from the Quetzal?
It wasnt until around 150bc - 200bc that the snake got the feathers of the Quetzal yet before that time it was still referred to as the Feathered Serpent wasnt it?

WIKI

The Feathered Serpent deity was important in art and religion in most of Mesoamerica for close to 2,000 years, from the Pre-Classic era until the Spanish conquest. Civilizations worshipping the Feathered Serpent included the Mixtec, Toltec, Aztec, who adopted it from the people of Teotihuacan, and the Maya.
The cult of the serpent in Mesoamerica is very old; there are representations of snakes with bird-like characteristics as old as the Olmec preclassic (1150-500 BC). The snake represents the earth and vegetation, but it was in Teotihuacan (around 150 BC) where the snake got the precious feathers of the quetzal, as seen in the Murals of the city. The most elaborate representations come from the old Quetzalcoatl Temple around 200 BC, which shows a rattlesnake with the long green feathers of the quetzal.

WIKI

It is believed that the serpent diety received its precious feathers from the people of Teotihuacan, as several representations exist of a "feathered" or "plumed" serpent. Like the Olmec however, the people of Teotihuacan left little account of their belief system.

Gukumatz doesnt mean "large brilliant tail feather" . Im sure there are Feathered Serpents/Snakes in mythology from around the world that have nothing at all to do with the Quetzal.

Gukumatz (Alternatively Gucumatz Gugumatz or Kucumatz. Translates as "sovereign plumed serpent") was the feathered serpent god of the Popol Vuh who created humanity along with the aid of the god, Huracan. Gukumatz is also considered the Maya equivalent of the Aztec god, Quetzalcoatl.

Why are snakes in mythology from all around the world depicted with wings?

There are Snakes that still have the vestiges of legs, why not many thousands of years ago snakes with feathered fronds or hairs that could be mistaken for feathers or markings perhaps that resembled feathers. Not saying its so, just postulating. Thats allowed isnt it, or should i u2u you for permission before i post.

Quetzalcoatl (Aztec)= feathered serpent
Gukumatz (Maya) = sovereign plumed serpent
Kukulkan (Maya) = quetzal serpent

youre missing the point
Quetzal bird feathers are used by Cheifs only
so a sovereign plume is a quetzal feather


there is no such thing as a winged snake with feathers

A snake is a type of reptile and serpent is creature with some of the characteristics of a snake eg wise, cuning, poisnous, deceitful,
fearsome and powerful. often in religion and mythology the word serpent is used to describe a powerful creature with the characteteristics of snake.
for example the devil was refered to as a serpent but we know that the bible also said he is a powerful angel called lucifer the bright morning star.
In the garden of eden where the devil deceives eve, the devil was refered to as a serpent.

Originally posted by Marduk
youre missing the point
Quetzal bird feathers are used by Cheifs only
so a sovereign plume is a quetzal feather

No your missing the point. Feathered, plumed, winged snakes/serpents exist in mythology world wide and are not all related to the quetzal feather!

Originally posted by Marduk

there is no such thing as a winged snake with feathers

Didnt say there was, theorizing and postulating do not mean stating as fact.
Snakes and birds are related, im looking for some link between them and their morphing in mythology. Whether you like it or not i will continue to do so.

Originally posted by mojo4sale


No your missing the point. Feathered, plumed, winged snakes/serpents exist in mythology world wide and are not all related to the quetzal feather!

so stop using the only examples that are related to the Quetzal feather
lol
did you notice though
theyre not called the quetzal feathered serpent anywhere else
Tcoh

Originally posted by Marduk
so stop using the only examples that are related to the Quetzal feather
lol
did you notice though
theyre not called the quetzal feathered serpent anywhere else
Tcoh

Your the one that first mentioned the quetzal feather, i said in the post further up this page that started your little frenzy,

"the feathered serpent mythology interests me". Where there have i specifically used an example related to the quetzal feather.

I think i'd really enjoy conversing and discussing a lot of things with you Marduk if it wasnt for your constant belittling and mockery towards anyone who dares to think differently to you.

So long. Talking to the hand from now on.

Originally posted by mojo4sale
I think i'd really enjoy conversing and discussing a lot of things with you Marduk if it wasnt for your constant belittling and mockery towards anyone who dares to think differently to you.

So long. Talking to the hand from now on.

So youre back to sticking fingers in your ears and saying LALALALALALALALALALA

fyi I haven't belittled or mocked you anywhere in this thread
thats just a cop out on your part because you've been speculating on something that is already an established fact

Tcoh

'Ouch' that stings.

So are you also conveniently not answering the question that you accused me of. Where did i use examples only related to the quetzal feather.

you tried to claim that Gukumatz meant "sovereign plumed serpent" and had nothing to do with Quetzals
thats what we were discussing when you said

Gukumatz doesnt mean "large brilliant tail feather" Im sure there are Feathered Serpents/Snakes in mythology from around the world that have nothing at all to do with the Quetzal.

you didn't notice the really obvious yet unexplained connection between all these cultures yet did you
what symbol is used to represent these Gods ?


[edit on 29-6-2007 by Marduk]