Racial Tensions being fanned by bloggers in brutal rape/murder

Originally posted by ImpliedChaos
Also I love that they say "black thugs" killed them when they know damn well if this were reversed the headlines (if there were any "

) Would say black couple killed by young men.. or boys who made a stupid mistake or something along those lines..

Hey, did you see my post?

A columnist said "white assailants" in a reversed hypothetical. Notice how much nicer "assailant" sounds than "thug."

Originally posted by truthseeka


Hey, did you see my post?

A columnist said "white assailants" in a reversed hypothetical. Notice how much nicer "assailant" sounds than "thug."

yeah thats what made me write my comment.. but of course all blacks who commit crimes are "thugs" while most white who do the same are misguided youths...

ImpliedChaos

Originally posted by ImpliedChaos
The point is this has not been proven to be a hate crime. Did some screamout before the murders "i hate white people lets kill those two?" What proof is there that this was a hate crime? none

Who knows what makes a crime a hate crime? A racist could commit a crime without uttering a word. The hate is all in the mind of the perp, and that's why it is impossible to determine whether a crime is a hate crime.

There's also the issue of whether a crime is more heinous because it was racially motivated. Should the penalties be stiffer for hate crimes than for routine crimes? If your answer is yes, then tell me why?

With regards to that whole duke thing. Noone knows what happened. The fact is before and during the party the boys admited to making racist statements. Also those boys had issues one was found guilty of punching a man and calling him gay..and another player in an email made references to "killing the b-," then cutting off their skin while eja- "in [his] Duke-issue spandex." (edited) No one will ever know what truely happened. Looking at the evidence from the beginning the players looked very guilty. No one will ever know what happened.

We know enough about it to realize that is was poorly investigated, that the prosecution was politically motivated, and that the lives of those young men have been changed for the worse at a cost of millions of dollars of legal fees. We know that the "victim" lied, as the other stripper testified. We know that it was an apparent shakedown attempt that fell apart.

Next time why dont you pick an example in which we know the facts of the case.

Hey, don't blame me. Blame Mike Hifong for his screw-ups. He didn't even meet with the "victim" for over six months. How's that for good investigative procedures?

The Duke one is clearly amiguous depending who you are and how you want to interpret the evidence. (drug addicted strippers cant be raped?)

I was making a reference to the statement that people of color, especially the poor, do not get their crimes published in the MSM. I should have known that some would fail to see the point.

[edit on 31-5-2007 by jsobecky]

I'm not saying that that person literally has to yell out loud and make a racist comment but there has to be some proof. Whether the told other people they felt like killing a white person or before the killing made remarks about the couples race or maybe they were known in the town to have a hatred for whites....Some sort of proof.

Hate crime laws should exist in my opinion because if someone is killed based on those factors alone (not because the person snapped and picked a random person or the killer had it out for that person due to other personal reasons) it effects the community being targeted. In the past and even today when a victim who was murdered was gay, black or whatever..some judges and juries dont punish the perps they same way if it had been another group. They tend to get off as if because that person was gay or another minority, their life was worth less than if they weren't. Hate crimes laws make sure that these people get punished. For example Bob murders a man at a nightclub just because he was pissed, but when john murders a man because he is black then encourages and perpetuates more hate.Also just as there are different degrees of homicide based on intent why shouldn't there be hate crime laws? There are different punishments for killers if the victim is a child or even a police officer (though not a real law its pretty much guaranteed you will get a tougher sentence if found guilty) So why not race, gender,sexual orientation, religious affiliation, and for those with disabilities?

I'm not sure if I explained myself well...Maybe this will help
Article

I suspect most who read this thread will find many of the posts so far to be disturbing.

* The facts as reported in the OP's link:

* Two people were murdered

* The suspects have incriminated each other: have blamed each other.

* The murdered victims were white.

* The suspects (who have already incriminated each) other are black.


The victims -- a male and female -- were both repeatedly raped.

How is rape described by virtually everyone these days; by the 'experts', victims and public?

It is described as an act of domination and aggression and not one fueled by sexual desire.

It is described as the intent to humiliate, control, render 'powerless' --- the need of the rapist to exert power over the victim -- often it is an act of revenge.

Did the murderers know the victims in the case in the OP ?

There has been no suggestion this was the case. Investigators have claimed the victims were 'in wrong place, wrong time' and that the murderers were working to 'a plan'.

What was that plan? Robbery?

At what point did the plan become one of torture, rape, murder?

The suspects are blaming each other.

When the case goes to trial, will the suspects explain their motives?

Will they say: ' We just wanted to get some cash and decided to hit the first people we saw' ?

Or will they say: ' We just wanted to get some cash and decided to also later rape the first victims we saw' ?


And will the prosecutor ask: ' And if the first victims you had seen were an elderly black couple ---- would you have raped and murdered them also, as you did the victims' ?

What will the accused reply: ' Sure. We were going to rob, rape and murder the first victims we saw, regardless of sex, age or colour' ?

Does anyone believe that? Will anyone in the court believe that? Will the judge? Will the media? Will the public, world-wide -- including the black community ?

I won't.

Are the suspects homosexual?

Are SOME of the suspects homosexual?

When the case goes to trial, will we learn that ONLY the possibly homosexual members of the gang raped the murdered male victim in this case?

IF so --- will we learn that the NON-homosexual members of the gang raped the female victim exclusively ?

Will we learn that the homosexual members of the gang raped the MALE victim -- exclusively ?

OR --- will we learn that ALL members of the gang raped BOTH the male and female victim EQUALLY ?

If the latter, what will the world deduce from this unspeakably foul crime?

Would they not be correct in believing that the degenerate gang members raped the female victim because they COULD.

They raped her repeatedly. In other words, they sated themselves on her helpless body.

But WHY did they also rape the male victim, her boyfriend?

WHY ? Why, if the murderers were not gay ?

Did they rape the male victim for the novelty factor -- to see what it was like to rape a male?

If the murderers hope to evade accusations of committing a Hate Crime --- they will need to convince the jury and judge and world-wide media and public that this WAS the reason they raped the male victim.

Otherwise, the media and world public and the trial judge and jury will be justified in believing to their satisfaction that the reason the murderers raped the male victim was NOT because they were homosexual and was NOT because they were interested in the novelty factor but WAS because those murderers WERE filled with hate --- a hate so INSATIABLE that the foulest perversions and cruelties were unable to satisfy it.

Now WHY would a gang of cowardly, sub-human degenerates have REASON to be so FILLED with HATE against two total strangers --- two people who had demonstrably done no harm to the murderes and had done nothing at all to provoke the murderers ?

It's not imperative that you ponder this --- although the jury, judge, media and worldwide public will certainly do so.

Because the facts are clear: those murdering scum EXHAUSTED themselves in an ORGY of hatred.

Robbing the couple was not enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

Kidnapping them was not enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

Torturing them was not enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

Humiliating them was not enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

Terrifying them was not enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

Repeatedly gang-raping the man's girl-friend in front of his eyes was not even 'punishment' enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

Covering the couple in filth and informing them they would soon be killed was not enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

Beating the victims was not enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

The murderers simply COULD NOT punish and debase and hurt and humiliate and terrify their victims enough to satisfy that violent hatred.

There had to be MORE. The killers were in a frenzy. What could they DO to their victims that would make that hatred subside?

Oh. Let's rape HIM ! That's the FINAL indignity we can heap on this couple. These strangers that FOR SOME REASON --- WE HATE SO MUCH ?

And if you were in that room with the killers while they were repeatedly inflicting so much HATRED on two strangers ---- would you ask; " What is it about this couple, these two dying victims .... that FILLS you with such inexhaustible RAGE ? "

And would the sub-human killers scream: " Because they're WHITE --- and WE can NEVER be that ! "

What other conclusion is there to be reached?

There was only one male victim.

There were SEVERAL cowardly, deviate, rapist killers.

That lone male victim could do nothing to save himself and his girlfriend against such odds.

He could therefore have done nothing that would threaten the killers.

He could do nothing to cause such demented rage in his rapist-killers.

Nor could the female victim.

They were victims.

They were powerless.

They had done NOTHING ---- other than EXIST.

And the victims' mere EXISTENCE had filled those degenerates with such RAGE that no depravity was enough to satisfy that rage.

What WAS it about the victims' mere existence that had fuelled such depraved rage?

The victims were departing a building. Just departing a building. Living their own lives. Not interfering with anyone. Not provoking anyone.

A plea of 'insanity' isn't going to work in this instance.

Nor is the tried and true: ' My client had a deprived childhood'.

Nor: ' My client was under the influence of ...'

Nor: ' The victims provoked my client your honour.'

No. No jury is going to buy those excuses five times in a row.

When this case goes to trial, those degenerates are going to have to explain the ferocity and ongoing sub-human behaviour inflicted on two strangers by a gang who are claiming they were just looking for someone to rob.

And they're going to have a very difficult if not impossible time explaining why this planned 'simple robbery' excalated into an animalistic, frenzied double rape, torture and murder .... for any reason other than a need for REVENGE.

Revenge for what?

Revenge against two total strangers --- who just happened to be young, attractive, and white ?

So let's remember WHO were the victims, please.

Because some posts in this thread seem almost to be suggesting the degenerate, animalistic killers should now be regarded as victims.






[edit on 1-6-2007 by Dock6]

Originally posted by Dock6
And would the sub-human killers scream: " Because they're WHITE --- and WE can NEVER be that ! "[edit on 1-6-2007 by Dock6]

So, you are either a mind-reader, precognitor, have access to all the information in this case, or all of the above?

Because you are SO SURE that this is the ONLY explanation. They weren't on angeldust, they weren't lying in wait for the first victims, they didn't come up with the rape and torture bit until after they robbed them, nope, no other possibilities. It's ONLY because they were white.

Wait, not only because the victims were white. Also because the alleged perps were black, and could never be white. Because ALL black people secretly want to be white, and resent white people for their whiteness. Yeah, you found out our secret; you are just TOO clever.

That's why black people constantly steal white people's slang, music, dress, mannerisms, etc., because we want to be whiter than the driven snow. With information like this, you have a DUTY to contact the prosecutor so this can be tried as a hate crime. Hop to it, now.

Because some posts in this thread seem almost to be suggesting the degenerate, animalistic killers should now be regarded as victims.

Really? Please point just one out, because I've re-read the thread, and can't find a single post that suggests any such thing.

The point of contention is whether or not it's a bias crime, IE motivated primarily by the victims' race. So far no-one has presented any evidence that it was any such thing - no doubt it was a horrific & brutal crime, but apparently not one motivated by race.

I have heard about this from a couple of radio shows. Each time it has been mentioned, the main point was the lack of attention paid to this crime by the National Media. To be honest I have to agree with these views. When you have a Chicago priest standing beside Jesse Jackson and stating that he will see a gun shop owner "rubbed out" and when you have a black author stating that all of the problems in this world are caused by Whites and that the solution is to "kill all of the white people" and then you see the furor raised over Don Imus's "nappy headed hoes" statement it is pretty easy to see the bias.

If it was 4 white guys who killed a black couple, it would be everywhere and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be talking about how this is racist and would not shut up about it.

But since it is a white couple murdered by black men...it isn't a hate crime until it has been PROVEN to be so.

If that isn't a double standard, I don't know what would be one.

They might raise a stink, as in the recent case with the lacrosse players, but in court it wouldn't be a hate crime unless there was proof the attack was motivated by racial hatred. Besides which it's kind of irrelevant anyway, the legal penalties for a "hate crime" don't amount to beans compared to those for rape and murder

Xmotex: you're not trying, not trying at all

Maybe if you took the defensive blinkers off while you read, you might see it staring you in the face, i.e., the sympathy shown to the degenerates because naughty-racist-bloggers are suggesting the atrocities were racially fuelled.

Followed by the 'Two Wrongs Make a Right' philosophies.

This is a increadbly sick news story, the kind of sick news story that you think that news would love to cover. But its that lack of coverage that makes this even more sick. The fact is that two young inccocent poeople, just 21 years old, my age, killded, with thier whole lifes ahead of them, taken by these people. Is there a worse way to die, mabye you haven't heard what happen, it's very gory stuff, something you would expect to see ina Quention Tarrentino film.

I just don't get the media, this story is living on the Web thru bloggers and message boards, and on talk radio, thats it, the news network, not that i watch them, will not touch this. But, with the simple alligation from a simple honest Stripper, a new profestion in the new america, can get the entire country in a fire that last for a year. The Fake Rev. Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpten, both of whom i had the oppertunity to meet when they came to my high school, cruicfied the boys from Duke LAX, why because "White Icons" From a "Prestigiuos White School" had commited rape againsnt the inocent stripper, that was just trying to make a living.


This is crazy, i can't belive that it has come as to even ask if this IS a hate crime. I have seen a officer get charged with a hate crime because he had to fight someone to the ground and use mace, because the person was on PCP and was attacking the officer with superhuman strengh, but he was black, so it must be a hate crime, the officer was not fearing for his life, he just hated the man because he was black... yea sure.

This case is simple, these young kids died in the worst of ways, and in thier finnal days had to go through unmentionalbe and unfathomble torture, torture only our worst of enimies would wish to inflict on you average american.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Because you are SO SURE that this is the ONLY explanation. They weren't on angeldust, they weren't lying in wait for the first victims, they didn't come up with the rape and torture bit until after they robbed them, nope, no other possibilities. It's ONLY because they were white.

truthseeka: you seem to read and translate my post very 'selectively

I focused on the repeated gang-rape of the male victim, for that is the crux. It is not a 'natural progression' from a claimed 'simple robbery of victims chosen at random'.

The future judge and jury, as well as prosecution and defence teams, are already well aware that rape is not sexually-motivated

It is an act of domination and control, of hatred, revenge and often, desperation

By raping the male and female victims, the thugs revealed their intention to dominate, control, debase and destroy those victims as 'people'.

That's a quantum leap from simply 'robbing' (as if that wasn't foul enough).

The prosecution team will repeatedly ask the thugs, individually, before the jury, to explain precisely WHEN the decision was made (and by whom) to abduct the couple ... and when the decisions were made to rape and sodomise, then murder them.

If you had read my post you would know that at NO point did I state or imply that the choice of two attractive young white victims was premeditated --- although it may transpire that this was the case.

What I did ask was --- would the thugs have inflicted such a fate on their intended robbery-victims, had the 'first people to come along' been a middle aged black couple.

It's a valid question and it will almost certainly be asked of the thugs at trial.

They will be repeatedly asked to detail the sequence of events, prior to the robbery.

Four sub-humans, all fighting for their stinking lives.

It will all come tumbling out.

Witnesses will be called.

Some may testify that the four thugs were loitering around a different vicinity, shortly prior to the crime.

If so, why didn't the thugs rob or kidnap, violate or murder those potential victims, if the plan -- as claimed -- was simply 'to rob the first person/people we saw'.

Some may testify that the four thugs were seen in the vicinity of the victims' homes or other places frequented by the victims, in the days, months or hours prior to the crime.

If so, the thugs' 'random choice' claims will be anihilated.

In Papua New Guinea, in the 1980s and 1990s, there were numerous similar atrocities committed against white couples by PNG natives, who broke into homes and raped the wife while the husband was held at knife or gun-point and forced, helpless, to witness the rape. Children too, were raped and/or forced to watch the rape of their mothers. The government and mining companies immediately flew the victims out of the country, paid them off and covered-up these crimes. At the time, the natives were demanding a greater percentage of mining companies profits and the situation was described as 'tinder-box'. Eventually, the natives deliberately sabotaged the mines, closed them down, and many long-term white residents of PNG departed in disgust. And much of the largesse provided the natives by whites disappeared from whence it had come, and the natives are back in grass huts again now.

If those native men had wanted 'sex', all they needed do was click their fingers, as sex was readily available from the native females. Instead -- claiming to be 'enraged' by the 'privilege' they believed the whites enjoyed -- the native rapists risked lengthy imprisonment by breaking into the white compounds in order to violate married women before their husbands.

The rape of those uninvolved white married women was intended by the rapists to convey a message to whites: " This is how I pay you back for being white and 'rich' and accomplished. You can travel the world and do all the things I long to do and never can or will. I want what you have. I want to be you. You are a white engineer. I am an uneducated black laborer. I hate you. Now I make you suffer an indignity from which you'll never recover. You can never wash this stain away. You will always be in my mind as the symbol of everything I cannot have or be. So now I will always be in your mind too --- I have violated what is precious to you. I have ruined your marriage and your memories and your pride. Take that. Ha ha. "

Many of the white residents were on contract to companies for two or three years. The native rapists cared not that those people were from the Netherlands or UK or Australia and had sacrificed and studied long and hard to obtain the qualifications, experience & expertise which the companies valued so highly.

The natives on the other hand were straight out of the jungle. They travelled hundreds of miles from their villages to the company towns, seeking work and money with which to purchase 'Mercedes' and other consumer goods they'd seen on tv. They had no training, no experience and no right to expect that whites would undertake to satisfy their fantasies. " You have it. We want it too." was their attitude. White man was their Big-Provider. White man had provided them medical care, schools, electricity, housing, running water, entertainment, encouragement, support. But that wasn't enough. " We want what you have and if you don't give it to us, we'll take it -- see our axes, see our bows and arrows. Now give."

And the whites tried. Gave them jobs and money and uniforms and encouragement as as much training as the natives could absorb. But the natives wanted to run before they could walk. They bought Mercedes and Land Rovers with the companies' money -- and when those ran out of petrol, they deserted them on the sides of the road.

To 'get even' for what they deemed the 'inequality', they raped the wives of the men they envied (and thus hated) so illogically.

But not even the PNG natives gang-raped the men they were so jealous of.

With regard to the case in question here, maybe the thugs' defemce team will attempt to claim the thugs were homosexual, to explain why they gang-raped the male victim and thus deflect evidence of a 'hate crime' against whites.

Will the prosecution team disprove such claims by calling as witnesses the thugs' girlfriends and others with whom they had sexual relations ?

And if they were homosexual, why did they gang-rape the female victim?

If they were NOT homosexual, why did they gang-sodomise the male victim?

First they raped the male victim's girlfriend before his eyes -- to both destroy him as a man and to 'dirty-up' the loving relationship the victims shared.

Then, to further this destroy this total STRANGER whom they'd supposedly never seen before and who had clearly done them no wrong -- they gang-sodomised him.

Let's be frank: those thugs were insanely jealous and envious of the young couple they claim they'd intended only to rob.

Yet the thugs claim they had never seen the couple before.

So what were they so jealous and hate-filled ABOUT ?

Were they jealous and hate filled about the victims' clothing? Their hair? Their fingers? Of what?

What did the thugs know of these people?

No jury is going to accept that four thugs ALL became insanely jealous of two total strangers about whom they knew nothing -- other than what they could see of them !

And the prosecution will demand an explanation.

NO 'explanation' will be remotely acceptable.

No punishment can be adequate.

And might I just add, while we're about it ...

The OP's thread-heading states: ' Racial Tensions being fanned by bloggers in brutal rape/murder'.

When in fact, the thugs who committed the brutal rape/murders, by their actions, are responsible for whatever 'racial tensions' have been created.

Originally posted by Dock6


When in fact, the thugs who committed the brutal rape/murders, by their actions, are responsible for whatever 'racial tensions' have been created.

Oh really just disregard the whole white supremicist thing.The "thugs" who funny enough have not been convicted and are innocent until provem guilty (but whats the law have to do with it when an 'all american' couiple has been murdered) Its funny how people say this case deserves national attention but when the 1millionth white girl goes missing how many of you same people are thinking that we need more coverage of young black, hispanic, asian, native american girls who go missing? Probably none of you. Yes this crime is horrible and it is recieving attention. BUT tell me why this case out of the thousands of murders deserves more attention?

Well, clearly you very much wish this case NOT to be discussed.

And now we're being advised to adhere to a philosophy of 'A Thousand Wrongs make a Right'.

Very obviously: people ARE discussing this horrific case here, because they WANT to ! Because they believe it *IS* important enough and DOES warrant discussion.

And last I was aware, members of ATS are free to discuss whichever topics they choose --- regardless of the determination of others to suppress such discussion.

I NEVER said that this case shouldn't be discussed. I am asking why people are pissed that there is no NATIONAL and WIDESPREAD attention to this. I dont mind talking about it , its an interesting case but some people are acting as if it is the most rare crime in the world and that it deserved press attention WITHOUT the added controversy of the white supremacist. I never said i want to censor people. What I have been referring to is the discussion in the media and such not on ATS or in people's personal lives. There are people on here who are clearly upset that this isnt all over CNN and Fox news and such. My question is why? There have been worse crimes (as i mentioned in my previous posts) that dont see the light of day but everybody is more upset over this one? The crime is horrible and any loss of life is devastating I am not saying that noone should care about the victims. Please read and understand what i write before you accuse me of wanting to censor people.

Originally posted by ImpliedChaos

Originally posted by Dock6


When in fact, the thugs who committed the brutal rape/murders, by their actions, are responsible for whatever 'racial tensions' have been created.

Oh really just disregard the whole white supremicist thing.The "thugs" who funny enough have not been convicted and are innocent until provem guilty (but whats the law have to do with it when an 'all american' couiple has been murdered) Its funny how people say this case deserves national attention but when the 1millionth white girl goes missing how many of you same people are thinking that we need more coverage of young black, hispanic, asian, native american girls who go missing? Probably none of you. Yes this crime is horrible and it is recieving attention. BUT tell me why this case out of the thousands of murders deserves more attention?

It needs to be acknowledged that *some*one most certainly committed this horrific crime and I think you would agree that 'thugs' is a mild, very mild description of the sub-humans responsible.

As far as being currently 'not convicted' -- the OP's link provides statements by investigators and others involved, who have said that those in custody -- four black males to be precise --- are 'blaming each other'/'incriminating each other '.

So, clearly, those in custody are incriminating others -- with whom they are associated.

How does one 'incriminate' in association with a crime, unless one has personal knowledge of the crime ?

And as it has been claimed 'they are ALL incriminating each other' --- then clearly each of the four accused is blaming the other. Ergo: all four were involved in the robbery, rape, sodomy and murder of the two victims.

Maybe you could explain why you refer to two innocent young people who are BLAMELESS victims within this case, as 'the all American couple' ?

It sounds very much as if you stand apart from them.

Yet what do YOU know of them? Have you ever met them? Have you reason to describe them so cynically? Have they personally caused you problems? Or do you just not like them on principal? Could you explain why ?

Yes, they appear to have been ' The All American Couple'. Which is a term used to describe a typical, attractive, decent, likeable, couple of Americans.

They lived in America.

They were American.

Hence, yes, they WERE the ideal of the young All American Couple.

ONLY if they had been Polish or Irish would they NOT have been the All American Couple, right ?

But they lived in their own country --- America --- and from what is known, they epitomised everything that people admire about America and it's people.

So why the snide remark ?

Don't you believe that if you have snide remarks to spare --- they'd be more fittingly applied to the disgusting sub-humans who stole their lives ?

Innocent until proven guilty.It has be proven that you really cant believe any of the stories considering the fact that everyone in the beginning though they were sexaully mutilated (when they were not). If they are guilty then yes they are horrible people..killing another human being is wrong.
I say "all-american" becuase that is what they are presumed to be

the term all-American is colloquially used to describe stereotypically clean-cut, mainstream/conventional middle-class white people, particularly teenagers and young adults,
Wiki

Interpret that any way you want to. I'm not being snide I use quotations as a way of say that is what they are presumed but not proven to be. They may or may not be "thugs". The victims may or may not be "all-american"
I never said that they deserve to be murdered. My question is why were they in that neighborhood? It has been reported that they were there to buy drugs. Does this mean that they deserved to be murdered?NO but it does take away from that clean cut image, which is being used as a way to say that their murder is more horrific then other's who are not so clean cut.

Its funny how you still have yet to answer my question. Why do they deserve widespread news coverage. Like i said before no one was complaining when the other types of cases that i mentioned before garnered absolutely no news coverage.
Its one thing to say that this an intriguing story but to say that the ONLY reason why its not on the news is due to a bias against white victims is ridiculous .The investigators themselves said it was not a race based attack. I'm sorry if you want it to be. There are plenty of crimes committed against others (white included) that are blatant race attacks that dont get media attention.

Chaos, all I'll say is...you have to understand how Dock6 works.

Then again, the media is biases against white victims. After all, I didn't see JonBenet Ramsey, Laci Peterson, the white girl who got lost in Aruba, the white toddler who went missing in Portugal, the white runaway bride, Susan Smith's "missing" children, or any other white victims of crimes in the news.