symbols everywhere

Pepsi:

It means helel, there is no confusion.

It means helel? ... Hell? ... What the heck are you trying to say again? ... There is much confusion in the mistranslated Bible about who or what Lucifer is.

Lucifer in the sense of the word, means Light Bearer, one who carriers knowledge and wisdom. Do you then imply your God deems those who move towards enlightenment and so forth to be evil because they do not remain in ignorance and blind to fulfill the wishes of the Church and the man made implications that are preached as the will of God?

Masonry descends from the kabalah knolege, it has a connection with the iluminaty, of course it's evil.

It has parts of the Kabalah, this is true, www.abovetopsecret.com... see this thread.

No one is calling you evil at a personal level so stop bashing people at a personal level, maybe you just don't know what you are part of, people are talking in general about masonry as an organisation, no one has taken this to a personal level.

If one calls another ones organization "evil" or "wrong" or "heretic" then that is a personal assault. To say that we are innocent and not guilty of the doings of those "above us" is also, insulting. This would then imply that we are ignorant and blind, following what we don't understand to fulfill the desires of those corrupt and evil.. this is insulting personally at every level, for those active know all that is to know. I bash no one, except those ignorant enough to preach their own personal views to others, and to expect all those who hear his words to bow before his dogma, except is law, and conform to his desires. This, I refuse to except, and do not see any part, no any one who partakes in such activities to be in any way equal to my self, or my brothers.

It is, entirely personal.

Lol just because some one tells you, you don't know how to play nice with out any one telling you to, I guess you're used to people telling you how to act, what to say?.....

Some peoples feelings are easily hurt.

Because this thread is about simbols I should of posted here the folowing statement made by a prominent 33 degree mason albert pike.

I personally don't agree with much of Pike's words, he was a great thinker and nothing more. There are many great thinkers, and many good with words, but when it comes down to it, Pike published his own views, not the views of the Craft. Masonry is different for everyone, and while symbology and so forth is borrowed, made up, passed down, invented or imagined, it is regardless, a symbol only means what one allows it to mean.

All your symbols come from there, from the iluminati and from the kabalah

Point number 2, by this statement pike states that masonary is a religion.

No, our symbols are not "Illuminati" and I believe you have not the slightest idea as to what a religion is.

Masonry is a PHILOSOPHY a way of life and thought, a way of thinking.

Show me the DOGMA and the conformality of all members to a single ideology, and il show you a religion.

It means helel? ... Hell? ... What the heck are you trying to say again? ... There is much confusion in the mistranslated Bible about who or what Lucifer is.

helel is a babilonian god, his name in english is morning star, in latin his name is translated to lucifer.
English=morning star/Light Bearer
Latin=lucifer.
hebrew=helel.
In Canaanitish mythology,he is the son of Sahar or Sharer, a deity with wings . Helel sought to usurp the throne of the chief god
You see there is no confusion, I don't even have to say it from a cristian point of view, in chrisian beilfes he is satan

Lucifer in the sense of the word, means Light Bearer, one who carriers knowledge and wisdom. Do you then imply your God deems those who move towards enlightenment and so forth to be evil because they do not remain in ignorance and blind to fulfill the wishes of the Church and the man made implications that are preached as the will of God?

I'm not refering to the meaning of the name, but to the name it's self, the character is called morning star, not that his name means morning star but his name is actuly morning star.
If some one's name is lucifer then that is his name.....then that is how people are going to call him, what is wrong with that?
I see no confusion at all, in fact things make sence.

It has parts of the Kabalah, this is true.

Of course it's true.

It is, entirely personal.

because you make it so.

I personally don't agree with much of Pike's words, he was a great thinker and nothing more. There are many great thinkers, and many good with words, but when it comes down to it, Pike published his own views, not the views of the Craft. Masonry is different for everyone, and while symbology and so forth is borrowed, made up, passed down, invented or imagined, it is regardless, a symbol only means what one allows it to mean.

Too bad he was taking on behalf of masonry, from a book dedicated to masonry, it was his personal opinion on masonry as a mason.

No, our symbols are not "Illuminati" and I believe you have not the slightest idea as to what a religion is.

Acording to his statement ALL your symbols are, it's his personal statement and opinion as a mason.




[edit on 20-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
Because this thread is about simbols I should of posted here the folowing statement made by a prominent 33 degree mason albert pike.

His statement:"
All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the Illuminati… is borrowed from the Kabalah;All Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols "
Albert pike...Morals and dogma.

All your symbols come from there, from the iluminati and from the kabalah

Point number 2, by this statement pike states that masonary is a religion.


[edit on 19-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Point one- by no means did pike speak for all masons. He simply made a contribution to the degrees of Scottish rite masonry, by writing a very comprehensive supplement to the degrees of masonry. There is some religous bias to pikes writing, because he writes based upon his experiences with history.

Point two-Pike uses arcane language, I stronlgly doubt that your knowledge of arcane english is good enough to read this book in its context. If you have even read the book. Considering that you misspelled illuminati, two paragraphs before you used the correct spelling in a quote.

Point three- the quote you speak of is on page 744-m, simply states a history of the progression of the history of the organization. Implying that something is "dogmatic" in nature doesn't grant it religious status. You see, History is concealed in religion. This book is about the ancient mysteries, and to decipher these mysteries you must trace thier roots. This book is about an individual's journey to seek truth and enlightenment, and wisdom. The wisdom of the Kabalah is second to none, it is the example of science, mathematics, metaphysics and religion in perfect harmony.

The Kabalah alone consecrates the alliance of the Universal Reason and the Divine Word; it establishes , by the counterpoises of two forces apparently opposite, the eternal balance of being; it alone reconciles Reason with Faith, Power with Liberty, Science with Mystery; it has the keys of the Present, the Past and the Future.
-Pike M&D pp.744-l

And here's the money shot...

In every age, its (masonry's) device has been, "liberty, Equality, Fraternity," with constitutional government, law, order, discipline, and subordination to legitimate authority-government and not anarchy.
But it is neither a political party nor a religious sect It embraces all parties and all sects, to form amongst them a vast fraternal association. It recognizes the dignity of human nature, and man's right to such freedom as he is fitted for; and it knows nothing that should place one man below another, except ignorance, debasement, and crime, and the necessity of subordination to lawful will and authority.

Albert Pike- morals and dogma pp.220-l

But if you had read the book you would know that already wouldn't you. God, I love it when things just come together like that. And I'm not even a mason. You all can thank me for that contribution, Pike denies ignorance from beyond the grave. Sounds like heresy to me.

BTW-Drinking too much Pepsi will give you diabeties, and cancer.


[edit on 20-5-2007 by Eyeofhorus]

Point one- by no means did pike speak for all masons. He simply made a contribution to the degrees of Scottish rite masonry, by writing a very comprehensive supplement to the degrees of masonry. There is some religous bias to pikes writing, because he writes based upon his experiences with history.

Yes his expiriance as a "mason with history" because like it or not he is refering to masonry.
Too bad people have to make feiry tails and iterpretations of it when words are black on white as a direct explenation.

Point two-Pike uses arcane language, I stronlgly doubt that your knowledge of arcane english is good enough to read this book in its context. If you have even read the book. Considering that you misspelled illuminati, two paragraphs before you used the correct spelling in a quote.

Yes I see, now it's something else, we have to read betwen the lines to understand , not the actual text that is clear, it's no, no , no I don't have a real gun in my hand , it's a water pistol, my god how dumb we are that we could not see it.

Point three- the quote you speak of is on page 744-m, simply states a history of the progression of the history of the organization. Implying that something is "dogmatic" in nature doesn't grant it religious status. You see, History is concealed in religion. This book is about the ancient mysteries, and to decipher these mysteries you must trace thier roots. This book is about an individual's journey to seek truth and enlightenment, and wisdom. The wisdom of the Kabalah is second to none, it is the example of science, mathematics, metaphysics and religion in perfect harmony.

This book is not about a jorney, this book is about a jurney that already has taken place, this book is a reference for masons on how to follow the path, as for "enlightment and wisdom" let us be the judge of that, what is enlightment for you might not be for others, in fact you will be surprised that it might mean negativity.

The Kabalah alone consecrates the alliance of the Universal Reason and the Divine Word; it establishes , by the counterpoises of two forces apparently opposite, the eternal balance of being; it alone reconciles Reason with Faith, Power with Liberty Science with Mystery; it has the keys of the Present, the Past and the Future.

Well that is your opinion, I think it's not, and it just happens that this is my personal opinion.
From my point of view cabalah has nothing to do with god, it's a knowlege alright,

Point three- the quote you speak of is on page 744-m, simply states a history of the progression of the history of the organization. Implying that something is "dogmatic" in nature doesn't grant it religious status. You

This text is clear to me.

everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the Illuminati… is borrowed from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols

It means that what he is stating from my point of view is that all in the religios dreams of the Illuminati comes from the cabalah and that the ALL the masonic "associations" are originated from there as symbols and secrets.

Why are you trying to say that this things are good for me?
It's just your opinion based on what? on a book that was created by a mason? who else says so?
I'll be the judge of that, you are welcomed to say it is, I have nothing against that, you're almost saing"fool hear my word this is knowlege and wisdom and all other is BS"

Nice avatar, horus , his dady was the god of the underworld"hell"
You don't actuly beilive that a god that dies is a god? do you

[edit on 20-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Oh, you guys are truely "denying ignorance"!

How can I be as xHardcore as you dudes?

Well, if you like looking for hidden symbols, here are a lot more to get your head around. Be sure to also click on the link under the banner headline on the page, for even more symbols:

www.stargods.org...

Originally posted by All Seeing Guy
Oh, you guys are truely "denying ignorance"!

How can I be as xHardcore as you dudes?

I dont think you can be as hardcore as some of these people. They are pretty hardcore with all their 1337 knowlege about the Masons and the like.

-fm

I totally see the OPs point. Before I learned about all about all this stuff I was a normal person walking about the streets of Glasgow minding my own business. Then I started to learn about Masonic symbolism and it opened my eyes. My city is covered, and i mean covered, in Masonic symbolism left right and centre. I have now started to notice it in pretty much every aspect of our lives from the architecture to car companies badges. How can anyone deny the Mazda sign is an owl? A tribute to Molock or what?



Why would anyone deny this type of symbolism might exist in car tail lights if it's already being done on badges? It seems to me that a lot of people on this forum like to take the mikey out of ops when they're posts are actually a good discussion point. I believe in protecting your organisation but that doesn't mean you have to take the P out of everything you think might relate the organisation to a higher state of affairs that a mens only social club.

The 1st piece of symbolism I spotted when i started to learn about it was a depiction of Queen Semiramis holding a staff with an owl on one side and a serpent on the other. I was totally freaked out cause i'd walked past the building every single day and never noticed or realised what it was. I'll need to start a thread with my pictures cause I got loads.

There may be quite a few Christian symbolism about but there's no way as much as the Masonic ones, and at least the Christian ones are openly Christian. Masonic symbolism isn't designed to be openly in your face, it's designed to be out of view and secret like the society itself. A lot of the time it's hidden and coded to keep it away from the masses. That's pretty sinister to me. Hell, most Christian and Masonic symbolism is the same anyway, doves, crosses etc cause they all come from the same thing!

I believe every symbol, sound, word, song and letter resonates a frequency. Some know exactly how this works and most are clueless that this is going on round about them every day. That then leaves open the possibility that some may use it to their advantage. It's common sense really.

And if the only 'real' masonic symbols are on the cornerstone or of plumbs, squares, levels etc than who's been building half of my city with symbolism of the sun, lions, pentagrams, owls, Semiramis, Baal, dragons, Mercurius and griffins? I thought the sun was the fundamental part of Masonic worship and one of the most used symbols.

Pepsi:

Yes his expiriance as a "mason with history" because like it or not he is refering to masonry.
Too bad people have to make feiry tails and iterpretations of it when words are black on white as a direct explenatio

Pike was a man, and his word is only as good as those who listen take it. I for one did not like the book Morals and Dogma. I have read far better authors with far better explanations for Masonry.

Essentially in the view of things, his word is nothing more then an OPINION.. Pike was not privy to knowledge other Masons did not and do not have.

The only reason Pike is famous is because Christian radical Anti's can manipulate innocent words to fit their own agenda.

Yes I see, now it's something else, we have to read between the lines to understand , not the actual text that is clear, it's no, no , no I don't have a real gun in my hand , it's a water pistol, my god how dumb we are that we could not see it.

I see exactly why you like Pike, because of his eccentric attitude and way of thinking, it can be manipulated in your OWN PERSONAL OPINIONATED INTERPREATION, ironically you know seem to think you have been enlightened in some way because you are so egotistically involved with your own thoughts, that you have found some kind of secret sinister meaning.

This book is not about a jorney, this book is about a jurney that already has taken place, this book is a reference for masons on how to follow the path, as for "enlightment and wisdom" let us be the judge of that, what is enlightment for you might not be for others, in fact you will be surprised that it might mean negativity.

Read your own words friend, and apply it to your self. Your hatred, fueld by pure spite and bigotry that your way of life is so much better, you are EXACTLY what you preach we are. Quite pathetic, and sickening to be honest.

Well that is your opinion, I think it's not, and it just happens that this is my personal opinion.
From my point of view cabalah has nothing to do with god, it's a knowledge alright,

Exactly, from a Christian perspective, which again ironically, one of the most destructive religions in world history.

This text is clear to me.

His opinions. Pike had no idea how Masonry has formed, no one does.

Nice avatar, horus , his dady was the god of the underworld"hell"
You don't actuly beilive that a god that dies is a god? do you

Even if he did, its none of your damn business quite frankly. Even though Christians seem to think it is their god damn given right to walk around feeling high and mighty in their own egotistical self righteousness to tell other people how and why to believe in a certain God, or live in a certain way. Sounds exactly like this Satan's kind of work you fear so much, imo.

helel is a babilonian god, his name in english is morning star, in latin his name is translated to lucifer.
English=morning star/Light Bearer
Latin=lucifer.
hebrew=helel.
In Canaanitish mythology,he is the son of Sahar or Sharer, a deity with wings . Helel sought to usurp the throne of the chief god
You see there is no confusion, I don't even have to say it from a cristian point of view, in chrisian beilfes he is satan

There is no actual proof to such ignorant claims. Unless your saying that all religious figures in the Bible are derived from an ancient Babylonian religion? Well if that where true then, your religion is absolutely nothing as you claim to be. Oh.. or is only ONE figure able to be traced to Babylon?

Christianity was INVENTED 2k years ago, out a mix of many religions, mostly Judaic and Egyptian.

To say that "Helel" is still in the Bible, so are all the other Gods. Where are they?

I'm not refering to the meaning of the name, but to the name it's self, the character is called morning star, not that his name means morning star but his name is actuly morning star.
If some one's name is lucifer then that is his name.....then that is how people are going to call him, what is wrong with that?
I see no confusion at all, in fact things make sence.

So it makes sense to you that the "devil" is Venus in the morning sky?

Instead of taking Christian mythology word for word, I word find the real meaning of the teachings.. Satan is the representation of evil, not an actual person, not an actual place, simply a character that represents "evil" ..

Lucifer is only mentioned once in the Bible. And Jesus was called the Morning Star.

Of course it's true.

Only parts, and very disfigured at that.

Read my link, my word is just as good as Pikes as they are both opinions.

because you make it so.

It is so.

Too bad he was taking on behalf of masonry, from a book dedicated to masonry, it was his personal opinion on masonry as a mason.

Wrong. Dead wrong. He was talking OF MASONRY not FOR MASONRY. Big difference, I would learn it if I where you.

Acording to his statement ALL your symbols are, it's his personal statement and opinion as a mason.

According to his, not many others.

Originally posted by pepsi78

From my point of view cabalah has nothing to do with god

Yet from my point of view, the Holy Kabalah is the very breath of God Himself. So which one of us is correct.

The only way to determine is for the readers to study the Holy Kabalah, and decide for themselves.

Nice avatar, horus , his dady was the god of the underworld"hell"
You don't actuly beilive that a god that dies is a god? do you

Actually, Osiris was king of the Realm of Light, not "hell". Also, to say that the Osirians worshiped a dead god is the same as saying that Christians worship a dead god. The whole point of the stories of these gods was not their deaths, but their resurrections.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Yet from my point of view, the Holy Kabalah is the very breath of God Himself. So which one of us is correct.

The only way to determine is for the readers to study the Holy Kabalah, and decide for themselves.

I see, where god is good and evil, where god does evil things, kabbalah...where kabbalah intoduces deities from egipt.
Where there are gods after gods creating god's plan.
Original kabbalah originated from egypt and was addopted by some hebrew cults in to the ocult, there is no connection to god or to the bible.
How is this compatible with chiristianity, judaism, muslim religion.

Actually, Osiris was king of the Realm of Light, not "hell"

Your teachings are your teachings.
The enciclopedia would say a different story.
www.kenseamedia.com...

The god of the underworld, Osiris was the husband of Isis and the brother of Set.

His betrayal and murder of Osiris by Set and Isis's search for his body is a beautiful series of Legends.

Osiris and Isis had a son, Horus. The three gods formed the Abydos Triad and were worshiped there. Abydos is the site of some of the burials of the earliest kings and most Kings had monuments there. The temple of Seti is one of the most beautiful and the Osirion, a cenotaph dedicated to Orisis was built by Seti just behind his memorial temple.

After his death, Osiris, progresses to the underworld to preside as ruler there. Later when Horus is also murdered by Set, Horus joins his father in the underworld.

If some one lord at the bottom of the pit is light for you than okay....



[edit on 20-5-2007 by pepsi78]

There is no actual proof to such ignorant claims. Unless your saying that all religious figures in the Bible are derived from an ancient Babylonian religion? Well if that where true then, your religion is absolutely nothing as you claim to be. Oh.. or is only ONE figure able to be traced to Babylon?

Dear how can a be more clear.
www.whiterosesgarden.com...

Helel - In Canaanitish mythology, a fallen angel, son of Sahar or Sharer, a winged deity. Helel sought to usurp the throne of the chief god and, as punishment, was cast down into the abyss. Cf. the Lucifer legend. The 1st star to fall from Heaven (Enoch I, 86:1) was Satan-Helel. This is an interpretation offered by Morgenstern, "The Mythological Background of Psalm 82" (Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion Annual XIV, pp. 29-126). However, in his Fallen Angels, Bamberger argues: "The more natural explanation is that the 1st star [that fell] was Azazel." Helel was head or leader of the nephilim (q.v.). Generally speaking, angels can have no offspring, since they are pure spirits; but when angels sin, when they "put on the corruptibility of the flesh" and cohabit with mortal women, they are capable of producing progeny. A case in point is the incident in Genesis 6. In the cabala and rabbinic lore there are numerous instances of such heteroclitish productivity. [Rf. Graves and Patai, Hebrew Myths.] (a)

People called him lucifer because his name was lucifer, not that he was planet venus.

Christianity was INVENTED 2k years ago, out a mix of many religions, mostly Judaic and Egyptian.

Judaic and egyptian are too different things and have nothing in commun, if you are refering to hebrew kabbalah cults that is a different story, kabbalah cults do not represent judaism.
And no christianity is not a mix of egiptian religion, it has nothing in commun with it, the old testament aplys to christians it's part of the bible, the old testament is older then 2k? I would say so, so we know where christianity comes from, what a sily remark to imply christianity comes from egypt.

So it makes sense to you that the "devil" is Venus in the morning sky?

No, not that the devil is planet venus, but that his name is venus, if your name is venus that does not mean your planet venus? does it.
If your name is little bear or big wolf as indians have names like this, does that mean that you are a wolf or bear, no it means that your name is little bear or big wolf.

Instead of taking Christian mythology word for word, I word find the real meaning of the teachings.. Satan is the representation of evil, not an actual person, not an actual place, simply a character that represents "evil" ..

The bible makes it clear that it is a character, it describes him from top to bottom, even how he is dressed.

Lucifer is only mentioned once in the Bible. And Jesus was called the Morning Star.

Jesus said he is the morning star, but his name was jesus not morning star, big difference when your name is actualy morning star, not that you want to be the morning star, but that is your name then that is how people are going to call you.

Judaic and egyptian are too different things and have nothing in commun

*shrugs* I see many simularities between Judaism / Christianity / Islam with the original stories of the Egyptians.. perhaps when the Hebrew people (a race) where enslaved, they diverted from the Egyptian mythology into their own, using much of the same stories.

And no christianity is not a mix of egiptian religion, it has nothing in commun with it, the old testament aplys to christians it's part of the bible, the old testament is older then 2k?

And the Old Testament had to have come from somewhere? .. It morphed from another religion, most likely that of Egypt.

Ah yes, that is.. unless God wrote it right?

so, so we know where christianity comes from, what a sily remark to imply christianity comes from egypt.

Christianity derives from a man who claimed to be the Son of God .. and then had people follow him...

Hmm..

People make such audacious claims even to this day, back then the masses as ignorant and uneducated as they where would have been easy victims.

Revert to my last comment that Judaism started somewhere, and simply adapted from its host to fit a culture.

Cultures make religions, religions don't make cultures.

No, not that the devil is planet venus, but that his name is venus, if your name is venus that does not mean your planet venus? does it.

not sure what your actually talking about..

The Morning Star? That is "Lucifer" .. The Morning Star is in all accounts I have read, Venus.

But that goes back into other religions and mythologies, which you claim no relation because you believe one day god said POOF let there be Jews.

If your name is little bear or big wolf as indians have names like this, does that mean that you are a wolf or bear, no it means that your name is little bear or big wolf.

It is representation and symbology I never made a claim that "the devil is literally Venus" ..

The bible makes it clear that it is a character, it describes him from top to bottom, even how he is dressed.

Hmm must have missed that passage, please post it.

Aside from that, in order for God to have an adversary, that competition must be of equal or near equal strength, Satan must then be a God, which relates to many, many, many other Mythologies from Greek Mythology to Egyptian.

What makes you so sure that your's is correct?

Jesus said he is the morning star, but his name was jesus not morning star, big difference when your name is actualy morning star, not that you want to be the morning star, but that is your name then that is how people are going to call you.

Lucifer is the Morning Star, and Jesus said he was the Morning Star.

Even if we follow your flawed literal logic, we would assume Lucifer represents the Morning Star, but Jesus will be called the Morning Star but not really be represented by the Morning Star, so he is named after the very representation he works to undo. Christian logic?

Also, if you claim that Christianity has a base to claims because the Old Testament is in the Bible, then you will have to also recognize Islam, because both books are referenced through out the Koran.

Ah, but you wouldn't dream of doing THAT now would you?

[edit on 5/20/2007 by Rockpuck]

Wow, Mr Pepsi, did you even read my post? Do you know how to use your spell checker? My goodness, I never thought it was possible for somebody to completely miss the point like that. I guess there is no way to reason with you, you weren't lying about that.

As far as the qoute that you cannot refute , here it is again:

But it (masonry) is neither a political party nor a religious sect It embraces all parties and all sects, to form amongst them a vast fraternal association. It recognizes the dignity of human nature, and man's right to such freedom as he is fitted for; and it knows nothing that should place one man below another, except ignorance, debasement, and crime, and the necessity of subordination to lawful will and authority.

Albert Pike- morals and dogma pp.220-l

PLEASE READ IT THIS TIME. If you can use Pike's words against masonry, then I have every right to use his text to show you how wrong you actually are.
Unfortuantely your prior posts carry no weight, because you have obviously misinterpreted pike's book. Have you even read it?

The book was his gift to masons. It supplements rituals as a guide to why each degree exists, and the MORAL or DOGMA that it supposed to be learned in that particualr degree. But this text was prepared for the southern jurisdiction of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, not for masons as a whole. His text is no longer used by the lodge, considering that most preople couldn't understand it. It is no surprise to me that you don't either.

Thank you for complmenting my avatar. Apparenly you really don't know what it means. LOL.

I thank the masons on this board for thier support. This will be a lesson in pateince for all of us.


[edit on 20-5-2007 by Eyeofhorus]

And the Old Testament had to have come from somewhere? .. It morphed from another religion, most likely that of Egypt.

The old testament does not derive from egypt, I don't know where you get that, all I see from is words with out anything to back it up

The Morning Star? That is "Lucifer" .. The Morning Star is in all accounts I have read, Venus.

Lucifer is not planet venus, his name is venus, it just hapens that his name is that, has nothing to do with planet venus, he chose a name.

But that goes back into other religions and mythologies, which you claim no relation because you believe one day god said POOF let there be Jews.

If you beilive in homesapiens, or 2 people that first started out that is your problem, at first there was no religion, even in the bible at the begining of the story there was no religion, so what is your point? they multiplied they went is separete ways north, east, south , west they built different religions.
Example: the religion from the north was diffeerent from the religion of the south.
They don't have to be connected because people spread out at first with out religion in all cases even if man was a primitive homosapien or it was addam or eve, addam and eve did not have religion, after multipling people migrated and went their ways, after that nations and religions were formed .
On the second view from the homosapien perspective it's the same thing, they migrated and then formed cultures and religions.
As much as you like to beilive that all religions come from kabbalah it's your case and not mine, you beilive it, I don't have to.
Your view that religion started from a single one is erronated.

Hmm must have missed that passage, please post it.

cerub dressed in precios stones ,gold, dimonds...etc....read genesis.

What makes you so sure that your's is correct?

Because I think satan is the bad guy?lol:
You might think otherwise , that is your problem, we just want to get it in the open, I don't care if you think it's bad or good, I just don't like people that are not honest about their belifes, people that keep hidding them.
This disscusion is perfect on the matter, to let stuff out and see what you guys stand for.

Lucifer is the Morning Star, and Jesus said he was the Morning Star.

Nope jesus said he is represented by the shining light of planet venus, because it's bright, not that his actual name is venus.

Even if we follow your flawed literal logic, we would assume Lucifer represents the Morning Star

I didint say that, lucifer is a name, if that name means something that is another story.
Lucifer as satan does not mean venus, it's simply means that it's his name like any other name.
If your dog is called sparky, do you really think sparks will come out of the dog
Sparky is just a name, just like lucifer, sparky can mean something but that is a different story.

Also, if you claim that Christianity has a base to claims because the Old Testament is in the Bible, then you will have to also recognize Islam, because both books are referenced through out the Koran.

Christianity , judaism, and islam share the same god, that is correct.
But I don't see your point in this one.
Islam came after judaism, it adopted it from judaism, but note that arabs left their religions for the adoption of a new religion.
How ever you clame that judaism adopted it from egypt is another thing and I personaly think it has no connection.

To sound more ironical, arabs were closer to the religion of egypt, but they left that and adopted another religion the one that clashed and contradicted with the egyptian one.
We can see in history that religios belifes clashed with each other repeling each other, some were simply prisoners because they refused to beilive what others had demanded, like isaiah, daniel, and alot of judaic figures.


[edit on 21-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78

Your view that religion started from a single one is erronated.

Erronated, that's a new one, is that in webster's? When did peole start to believe that that was actually a word.

No results found for erronated.
Did you mean Erogated (in dictionary) or Urinated (in encyclopedia)?
-dictionary.com

next time truy using;

er·ro·ne·ous /əˈroʊniəs, ɛˈroʊ-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-roh-nee-uhs, e-roh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. containing error; mistaken; incorrect; wrong: an erroneous answer.
2. straying from what is moral, decent, proper, etc.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L errōneus straying, equiv. to errōn- (s. of errō) wanderer (deriv. of err-; see err) + -eus -eous]

—Related forms
er·ro·ne·ous·ly, adverb
er·ro·ne·ous·ness, noun


—Synonyms 1. inaccurate, untrue, false.
—Antonyms 1. accurate.

-dictionary.com

How ever you clame that judaism adopted it from egypt is another thing and I personaly think it has no connection.

To sound more ironical, arabs were closer to the religion of egypt, but they left that and adopted another religion the one that clashed and contradicted with the egyptian one.


[edit on 21-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Moses inherited his knowledge from the pharohs, and the mysteries of the ancient initiates. This knowledge was put into the form of kabalah, and studied by the jewish mystics. It is trancednded directly from the ancient mysteries of divine alchemy. Jesus was in fact a jew, and was quite well versed in jewish mysticism.

I would reccomend reading Arcadia by peter dawkins. This book shows how ancient knowledge has been passed from one culture or religion to another. You will come to find that chrisitanity's hand are not as clean as you seem to believe.



[edit on 21-5-2007 by Eyeofhorus]

[edit on 21-5-2007 by Eyeofhorus]

I'll pass your insults and get to where is worth quoting you.

Moses inherited his knowledge from the pharohs, and the mysteries of the ancient initiates. This knowledge was put into the form of kabalah, and studied by the jewish mystics.

Well this is beautiful, since the bible does not say a word on this, in fact I can not find anywhere in the bible this as a teaching.
You come and post here with out any links with out any material from a credible source to back up your claims.

I don't doubt that hebrew kabbalah cults existed, but they were not out of judaism, there were alot of jewish slaves in egypt and some of them addopted the kabbalah teachings, but then again anyone that is christian can go and adopt satanism but it will not create a branch betwen christianity and satanism.
What you are simply stating that some judaic characters adopted kabbalah teachings, so what, this will not create a link on religions.

Regarding moses that is another story, and of course I don't buy it, since the bible has no reference on it.

It is trancednded directly from the ancient mysteries of divine alchemy. Jesus was in fact a jew, and was quite well versed in jewish mysticism.

I also don't buy that, you must provide a credible source for people to even start thinking it's so.

You will come to find that chrisitanity's hand are not as clean as you seem to believe.

I didint say that people didint profit from christianity, the curch sure did some ugly things in history.
People used christianity to gain power, however that doesn not mean that christianity in esence is bad.

All that you are stating in the end is that some hebrew cults practiced kabbalah and as a result there is a link betwen religion in egypt and judaism, I don't see how, if some one decides to shoot a gun and kill some one then he is a changed man, it's his choice, that does not mean his whole family and all his relatives are at fault.
People make choices, that does not mean that choice number 1 with choise number 2 are connected as one in the same.

You bashing me on my english proves that you can't debunk me on things so you chose to attack me on other matters.
Stop troling the forum and stick on the subject.



[edit on 21-5-2007 by pepsi78]

You asked for it, here it is:

According to Egyptian lore, there were initially ten divine dynasties- 'the reign of the Gods'. These gods (neters) should be understood as being divine creative principles and archetypes, equivalent to the sephiroth of the hebraic Cabbala, or the supreme spirits (AElohim) and archangels of the judaic-christian tradition. It should also be understood that moses, the great law-giver of the hebrews, was learned in all the knowledges of the Egyptians[1], having been high priest of On (heliopolis) and second only to the pharoh in initiateship and rulership of all Egypt, and that is essentially the same wisdom knowledge that Egyptians had which passed on to the Hebrews via Moses. The ten divine dynasties form a spiriual 'tree of life' that brought life and civilization into being on earth.

-'Arcadia' -peter dawkins pp.28 Published by the sirf francis bacon research trust, on behalf of the AMORC. 1988

[1] acts 7:22

The Cabbalistic tree of life was actually an egyptian symbol before it was transferred through moses to the hebrews.

EGYPTIAN TREE OF LIFE existing prior to the advent of the Cabbala

ancientegypt.hypermart.net...

www.ka-gold-jewelry.com...

I am almost certain that this will not be good enough for you and you will simply brush this off as nonsense. But if you are High and mighty enough to be allowed to do that then I should very well be allowed to do the same to you. If you can discredit my sources with your bible, and a simple claim of nonsense; then I can say that my sources prove your bible to be nonsense. The bible is hardly a reference text.

You bashing me on my english proves that you can't debunk me on things so you chose to attack me on other matters.
Stop troling the forum and stick on the subject.

I am sorry to hurt your feelings, but your typing hurts my brain. The fact is your posts have nothing in them worth attacking, so I am forced to look at your grammar and spelling to further amuse myself. I have proven I can debunk your "things" and I have the common courtesy to check my spelling before posting. I have directly attacked all of your credible points with equally credible evidence and cited sources. You threw pike at me, I threw Pike right back at you. And you never even acknowledged your misinterpretation of his book (which you haven't read). You sir are the one that is skirting the arguments, you sir are the one who led us off topic. I coach debate, I know how to argue a point. I also know that I have never had a student as stubborn as you. As far as trolling goes, If I am guilty, you are equally guilty of trolling.

The bible is not the only book in existance. As much as you would probably like to burn all literature that you deem "satanic," People tend to use outside resources, like books, to gather information. You must prove to me that my source is non-credible, and saying that it is satanic does not prove this. Prove to me why the bible is credible without saying that "god wrote it/inspired it" and I will applaud you.

[edit on 21-5-2007 by Eyeofhorus]

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
You asked for it, here it is:


According to Egyptian lore, there were initially ten divine dynasties- 'the reign of the Gods'. These gods (neters) should be understood as being divine creative principles and archetypes, equivalent to the sephiroth of the hebraic Cabbala, or the supreme spirits (AElohim) and archangels of the judaic-christian tradition. It should also be understood that moses, the great law-giver of the hebrews, was learned in all the knowledges of the Egyptians[1], having been high priest of On (heliopolis) and second only to the pharoh in initiateship and rulership of all Egypt, and that is essentially the same wisdom knowledge that Egyptians had which passed on to the Hebrews via Moses. The ten divine dynasties form a spiriual 'tree of life' that brought life and civilization into being on earth.

-'Arcadia' -peter dawkins pp.28 Published by the sirf francis bacon research trust, on behalf of the AMORC. 1988

[1] acts 7:22

This coming from a guy like peter dawkings?
The guy that uses material from royal arch masons to publish his work, give me a break, where does mister peter get his inspiration, encicolpedia?
, biblical refrence?

The Cabbalistic tree of life was actually an egyptian symbol before it was transferred through moses to the hebrews.


EGYPTIAN TREE OF LIFE existing prior to the advent of the Cabbala

ancientegypt.hypermart.net...

www.ka-gold-jewelry.com...

I am almost certain that this will not be good enough for you and you will simply brush this off as nonsense. But if you are High and mighty enough to be allowed to do that then I should very well be allowed to do the same to you. If you can discredit my sources with your bible, and a simple claim of nonsense; then I can say that my sources prove your bible to be nonsense. The bible is hardly a reference text.

Not that I will brush aside all of it, but I want to make a point, the kabbalah tree of life holds another story and another meaning to it.
There is incompatibilty

Explanation of the existence of evil: Christianity determines evil as a disobedient rebellion against God. Satan, as an angel, of light first exercised it, when the devil tried to be like God. Then, the perpetrator enticed man to exercise the same rebellious disobedience. Judaism understands evil as the same act of rebellion. Kabbalah’s philosophy of evil stems from the belief that both good and evil come from God.

Further more the story with the tree of life has a total different meaning in kaballah than in christianity, the tree of life for kabbalah is where good and evil come together and work as one because the tree of life created by god was created to serve good and evil forces, as described god is good and evil as a duality which in the bible's view it's a whole different tree.

About moses.
There is only one problem, people doubt the book of genesis is writen by moses, there is indication that the book is older than moses and that moses was not around when the book(small books) was writen, such sugestions come from the idea that the book of genesis was writen a long time ago by different authors, eye witneses in carved stone, since historical researchers found evidence of carved stone tablets in hebrew before moses existed.
Moses jurney to egypt also occurs later in the bible from the first book of creation, the events in the book of creation does not involve moses jurney to egypt.
Any way what is for sure is that the book of creation was writen before moses traveled to egypt.

I am sorry to hurt your feelings, but your typing hurts my brain.

You are not hurting my feelings, I'm used to people like you, in fact I have seen worst.
I just don't like when people use other things to get at me in stead of sticking on the subject.

The bible is not the only book in existance. As much as you would probably like to burn all literature that you deem "satanic," People tend to use outside resources, like books, to gather information. You must prove to me that my source is non-credible, and saying that it is satanic does not prove this. Prove to me why the bible is credible without saying that "god wrote it/inspired it" and I will applaud you.

The bible is not the only book in existance but that does not mean it's linkedwith other books some how in history.



[edit on 21-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78

I see, where god is good and evil, where god does evil things, kabbalah...where kabbalah intoduces deities from egipt.
Where there are gods after gods creating god's plan.
Original kabbalah originated from egypt and was addopted by some hebrew cults in to the ocult, there is no connection to god or to the bible.
How is this compatible with chiristianity, judaism, muslim religion.

The Kabalah does not claim that God is both good and evil. Nor does it introduce deities from Egypt. According to the Kabalah, God is manifested in both Nature and man. In other words, Nature is God's clothing, and He may only be found within it.

Whether or not the Kabalah is compatible with Christianity, Judaism, or Islam is no concern of mine. However, it must be compatible with at least Judaism and Christianity, since the Kabalah is founded upon Hebrew scholarship within the Judaic community. The Muslim mystics, on the other hand, have their own system of metaphysics that is very similar to the Kabalah, called Sufism.

The enciclopedia would say a different story.

No, it doesn't. The "underworld" was not "hell" to the Greeks and Egyptians in the sense you are trying to use it. In the myth, Osiris redeemed the underworld through his death and resurrection, granting immortality to the just and virtuous.

If some one lord at the bottom of the pit is light for you than okay....

You are confusing the issue. In the story, it was Set who was cast into the "pit"...not Osiris, the Redeemer.