Oh God, WHY?

Could not have been said better. I really like Queenannie's reply, and Ben's I think, a little more. Mine was short and sweet and Ben and Queen both said better than I did.

All in all I hope that proved to be of some insight and useful for you Madness, it was for me.

God bless

Could not have been said better. I really like Queenannie's reply, and Ben's I think, a little more. Mine was short and sweet and Ben and Queen both said better than I did.

All in all I hope that proved to be of some insight and useful for you Madness, it was for me.

God bless

[sorry for the double post]

[edit on 15-5-2007 by followerofchrist]

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Just wondering, but how exactly did you seek God during those two years? Reading Richard Dawkins certainly won't help.

well, i started reading dawkins this year when i was given a copy of unweaving the rainbow (fantastic literature btw). first off, i read the bible. i talked to every member of the clergy i could. catholic, protestant, orthodox, coptic, and mormon from the christian side. reform, orthodox, and for jesus on the jewish side. i talked to a couple of imams. read the bible again. spent hours upon hours in prayer. followed the advice of each of the clergymen. hell, i even would get angry at myself when i kept thinking "maybe there isn't a god" but i ended up accepting that i had been wrong my whole life.

While Dawkins and others tear god a new one by quoting the bible, I think that is a mistake.

Few Christians have taken university courses in the origins of the bible so they don't realize the old testament is made up of stories copied from earlier documents from other religions and modified to match the goals of the rabbis doing so. The new testament is from memories of a variety of men long after Jesus died. Then, with each translation, errors in wording crept in, and text was updated to match the current social conditions and dogma.

As such, the bible is not even close to "the word of god."

Avoiding the problem with the bible, more precise questions might be, "What function does a belief in an all knowing, all controlling entity serve?" and "What actions and/or items can we identify that cannot be explained other than by the existence and operations of such a being?"

I think the second question is by far the more important one.

Occam

People have faith because they miss something, deep inside they seek something higher and spiritual. Without it we would be robotized borg nation for a few decades already, believing only in material.

Seeking rest, and findeth none.

Bible and other holy books with all the "bad" violent parts actually tell you something important, even when some are partially censored for political reasons.

First they appear barbaric with all the violence and wrath inside, yet they contain brighter parts too, inspiring spiritual and kindness and so on. Key is to look at big picture and you will see something very interesting. I was convinced violent parts are just something we need to ignore, but then i realized something. You need to see it for yourself, i can't help you with this!

If you follow any book keep in mind stories and characters are not that important, also remembering quotes is not important. Also, do not worry about barbaric Old Testament and so on, it's that way for a purpose and never be afraid to tell people to read it, but never force them.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

"I am loth to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearthstone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
- Abraham Lincoln's Inaugural Address

No matter what our ideologies are, we are not the ones to judge and we should be loving towards one another at all times.

Nice quote. I am not sure why we don't have speeches made today that exhibit that sort of eloquence, but maybe it is reserved for our past. Either way, I agree.

soldier, i was just looking over that quote again and was surprised by who you quoted.

to quote the same man (on how people were telling him how god would want him to act as president, sometimes using the bible)

If God would reveal his will to others, on a point so connected to my duty, it might be supposed he would reveal it directly to me

a quote about lincoln from a close associate of his following his death

an avowed and open infidel sometimes bordering on atheism... He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I ever heard

abe lincoln, most likely a deist or atheist.

i had a point i was going to make after this, completely unrelated to the former president...

oh yeah.

another question: why must we serve god if said being is omnipotent?

God might be eternal, but he still has the mental age of a 14 year old...

[edit on 17-5-2007 by DarkSide]

Originally posted by followerofchrist
Now put that into religion and it helps us understand it hopfully a little better: God has Faith in us so strongly that he is willing to do anything for us. He put his own life on the line by being beaten and crucified for us.

Except that god's life is worthless. He can send jesus down every day and die every day. He can do it indefinitely, so his life isn't worth much :p

But, the fact is He doesnt have to. Thomas doubted Him, until he put his finger to his scars, the people doubted him, until they saw for themselves. This world needs physical evidence no matter how much we talk. When it gets it though the world tries to disprove it.

God bless

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
soldier, i was just looking over that quote again and was surprised by who you quoted...

abe lincoln, most likely a deist or atheist...

oh yeah.

another question: why must we serve god if said being is omnipotent?

If Abraham Lincoln was a deist or atheist, why did he regularly attend the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church?

As for your other thing, about why God wants people to serve him if he's omnipotent... It's hard for me to speak for God, since... ya know.... I'm not God. But I'll try and answer your question anyways.

As you probably know, God is a just deity. Meaning that he has a set of morals that humans should abide by, according to what is uplifting and what is degrading. God is righteous, and if we follow in his path and learn from his physical manifestation(Jesus), then we too will lead a just life.

Furthermore... if we regularly serve God, as in praying, meditating, saying grace, or anything else you can think of (personally I like observing and painting things in nature), then you will always be reminded of his presence. Reverence for God will grow inside of you, and if it truly does then you'll grow wiser and humbler with each passing day, side by side with God. So why does God want us to serve and follow him...? So that he can be with us, and us with him. That was his original purpose for creating us, so why would he abandon us once we are born?

Hope I helped.

Originally posted by followerofchrist
But, the fact is He doesnt have to. Thomas doubted Him, until he put his finger to his scars, the people doubted him, until they saw for themselves. This world needs physical evidence no matter how much we talk. When it gets it though the world tries to disprove it.

God bless

How do you know that happened? :shk:

Originally posted by DarkSide
Except that god's life is worthless. He can send jesus down every day and die every day. He can do it indefinitely, so his life isn't worth much :p

You believe that because something can happen many times, it is worthless? I bet you've posted hundreds of times, but does that mean all of your posts are worthless? Should we stop paying attention to you and put you on the ignore list? You don't hear anyone saying "Hey its that guy DarkSide again, oh jeez he's at it with another one of his posts. Doesn't he know that all of his posts are worthless because there are so many of them?"

I know it happened simply because I choose to. Am I wrong for that? I dont think so. You may think I am mislead, you may have reason to back it up but, you have made a choice as well by thinking that. Which is something I respect.

God bless

Originally posted by followerofchrist
I know it happened simply because I choose to.

knowledge isn't about choosing to know, it's about realizing. i could choose to know that there are magical mini-rhinos that bestow gifts of candy upon those that have the most faith in them, but it would still be crock

Am I wrong for that? I dont think so.

well, right and wrong from a factual perspective does not depend on your subjective interpretation

You may think I am mislead, you may have reason to back it up but, you have made a choice as well by thinking that.

the problem is that we aren't choosing the truth, we're observing truth. atheism tends to be quite... scientific like that

Which is something I respect.

and i thank you

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by followerofchrist
I know it happened simply because I choose to.

knowledge isn't about choosing to know, it's about realizing. i could choose to know that there are magical mini-rhinos that bestow gifts of candy upon those that have the most faith in them, but it would still be crock

Madness, I think what they are saying is they have faith in that belief. You try to catch people off guard with trying to prove faith all the time. It is not possible to do.

Have you ever just "known" something without resorting to learned it in a textbook or studied it or had it explained to you by someone else? I am sure you have if you think hard enough. That is "knowing". Animals do this all the time, without resorting to experience or learned knowledge of proof.

Have you ever seen a dog afraid to jump into water when they have never encountered water before in their life? That is knowing.

Faith is very much like this. It does not require logic to arrive at.

Originally posted by ben91069Animals do this all the time, without resorting to experience or learned knowledge of proof.

Have you ever seen a dog afraid to jump into water when they have never encountered water before in their life? That is knowing..

That's not knowing, it's called fear of the unknown. Throw the dog into the water I'm pretty sure he'll survive it ..

Originally posted by DarkSide
That's not knowing, it's called fear of the unknown. Throw the dog into the water I'm pretty sure he'll survive it ..

So what makes some animals or humans fearless? Why do you represent these dogs as being fearful of the unknown yet many animals and humans do things without regard for fear of anything really (as if they are immortal).

Originally posted by ben91069
So what makes some animals or humans fearless?

stupidty? courage? little bit of both sometimes.

Why do you represent these dogs as being fearful of the unknown yet many animals and humans do things without regard for fear of anything really (as if they are immortal).

sometimes in the psyche fear is supressed for the benefit of human operation. if you were constantly afraid of all the things that could possibly happen to you right now your brain would just freeze up.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if you were constantly afraid of all the things that could possibly happen to you right now your brain would just freeze up.

At last we agree. How about a drink on me?

Seriously though, I was referring to instinct in the last few posts, but I guess that idea missed out.