Oh God, WHY?

This is just a question, why faith above all else?

is god that much of a prick? wait, strike that, yahweh is a prick.
is it because your deity is a child that sees attention as more worthy than compassion?
is it because reason is evil?
honestly, what's the issue here?

why would the abrahamic mountain god favor faith over everything else? could one save the entire world from certain destruction and go to hell for being an atheist? is god that petty?

I've asked this question before and elsewhere and the answer to the one about athiests going to hell has always been yes.

No matter how good or exemplary a life you lead, if you don't worship the god of the mountain, you don't get in.

I'm glad I'm a non-theist. I don't believe in hell so it's a non-issue.

Let me see if I can offer some insight into what you are asking...which is a great question I might add by adding this question:

How does a father know there baby will suvive? especially if it has a type of disease? the answer simply is you dont. That father will believe in that child so strongly that he would gladly put his own life on the line to see his child pull through. All the child has to do is pull through.

Now put that into religion and it helps us understand it hopfully a little better: God has Faith in us so strongly that he is willing to do anything for us. He put his own life on the line by being beaten and crucified for us. All we have to do in return is have Faith that He is real, that we are forgiven, and most importantly that He does love us. All we have to do is pull through.

I hope you got what I was trying to say.

God bless

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why would the abrahamic mountain god favor faith over everything else? could one save the entire world from certain destruction and go to hell for being an atheist? is god that petty?

read Romans Chapter 2

Could you quote it for us? I don't have a bible right now and I can't afford to buy one just for a quote.

I would be more than happy to give you one of mine if you wanted MMF? I have like Five of them...well about six or seven between me and my wife. That is if you want one though. Free of charge

God bless

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Could you quote it for us? I don't have a bible right now and I can't afford to buy one just for a quote.

Romans 2:12-15

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

It basically says that those who have never had the chance to know God, will be judged by the nature of their hearts. Thus, atheists will be judged by the content of their character instead of their accordance to the gospel of Jesus Christ. But if you have had the chance to know God and have refused, then there is no excuse.

Edit: to fix quote

[edit on 5/14/2007 by TheB1ueSoldier]

but soldier, i've had a chance to know your deity, hell i actively sought out god for the better part of two years and came up empty.

that passage seems to prevent damnation for people that have never even had the chance to hear about christianity.

Originally posted by followerofchrist
I would be more than happy to give you one of mine if you wanted MMF? I have like Five of them...well about six or seven between me and my wife. That is if you want one though. Free of charge

God bless

Nice of you to offer, but thank you no. I suppose I could have Googled that myself if I wasn't so freaking tired out.

there's a nice quote by richard dawkins, from his new book the god delusion

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

now, that may seem a bit... extreme, but if you look at the text it's true.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
now, that may seem a bit... extreme, but if you look at the text it's true.

I've done more than just look at the text... and I must say that Richard Dawkins and I have come up with completely different conclusions. God of the Old Testament, and throughout time, has been a forgiving, humble, righteous, compassionate father to men. Dawkins is reading old jewish laws and interpreting them as the direct words of God, a common mistake.

madnessinmysoul, so are you saying that if the Bible is valid, then God is evil? If the the Bible is invalid, then God does not exist?

In your mind, can God win?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
This is just a question, why faith above all else?

That way, no one can claim they personally did anything to get salvation, or boast to one another how much better they are or how lowly someone is. I know this isn't what modern religion is saying, but that is the intended reason.

is god that much of a prick? wait, strike that, yahweh is a prick.
is it because your deity is a child that sees attention as more worthy than compassion?
is it because reason is evil?
honestly, what's the issue here?

Well, God or whomever you want to call it can be just about whatever it wants to be - good or evil. God encompasses everything. Nothing is apart from God, even what we consider bad. Is it really evil? Whatever you believe is what you believe. I don't consider God to seek attention from me, but I also know him more like a father than some dictator. I guess it depends on your relationship to God. If all you can see God as being is a persona that identifies the characteristics of being an attention getter then that is all he will be to you and you will be forever stuck defining God that way. It must be true then that our beliefs are creating God (even though I also think it is reciprocal). There is truth to the biblical phrase; as above, so below.

What this means is that we are to find God and his Kingdom, then it will become reality. If we do not find the true kingdom, then nothing changes and we remain right here in the world of imperfection. The kingdom of heaven is within you madness. Define it to be holy then everything else will become holy.

why would the abrahamic mountain god favor faith over everything else? could one save the entire world from certain destruction and go to hell for being an atheist? is god that petty?

Well I would much rather be around people that want to be friends and accept me for me rather than people who expect things from me or desire to do things for me. This is the key to what buying and selling is in the book of revelations. It is not talking about dollar bills and purchasing stuff, but the money of God. God wants those who have faith they are acceptable and also people that are capable of seeing through the veil that God has done some terrible things in the world. The only way to find God is to find love, then everything becomes forgiven and you are forgiven.

Hell is a word used by the unsaved and those in darkness confirming what they don't understand. Define the true heaven and then you will know all about hell. In the mean time, keep seeking the truth, however you find it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
This is just a question, why faith above all else?

Because 'faith' in the true sense intended by the writers of the bible and the story of Moses and Jesus is not 'belief' but 'loyalty'...also sometimes understood as 'constancy.'

It is the quality of keeping one's word - to make a vow and break it is a very cruel thing to do. It is better not to make a promise if there is any possibility it cannot be kept.

It is not the 'faith' of so-called christians or any other proclaimed pious person that is emphasized in the bible...it is the fact that, to God and those of God, a promise made is a promise kept. NO MATTER what we do, any of us - as a group or on our own...God will do what He said all along He would do. Which most people don't realize is to simply make the world a peaceful and healthy place to live in and raise our children and so on in.

And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
Revelation 21:4

For I know the purposes which I am purposing for you, says Jehovah; purposes of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11

is god that much of a prick? wait, strike that, yahweh is a prick.

Who is 'yahweh'? More sloppy pseudo-translation that isn't even interpretation. It is just nonsense.
Lots of human beings are self-righteous pricks, though.

The name that Moses was given was NOT a name but rather a statement of potential and intention.

I am that I will be

That is the only place in the bible that 'I AM' is phrased in the future pluperfect tense. Later, when Jesus spats with the Pharisees, he says simply 'I AM.' The spirit had become manifested in its intended fashion at that point.

But even the name Jesus is not actually a name but a title that means 'I AM the one that saves.' Add 'christ' or 'messiah' and it is just saying the anointed/approved one to do that job. Which is actually not saving any supposedly evil or sinful soul...it says 'Savior of the world.' And that is literal. The planet, not the people...because if there is no place for the people to live, there is no need to worry about souls and such.

The current powers that be in this world value profit and material things more than other people and also abuse and suck the life out of the only home they have…the idea of ‘going to heaven’ leaving a smoking, spent, no longer needed planet Earth behind is BS. The majority of mainstream Christianity is just as oblivious to what is going on as those they accuse of being ‘illuminati’ et al. The principle of ‘honoring your father and your mother’ applies not only to earthly parents but to the human spirit in its united form – collective consciousness, so to speak (father) and the planet which sustains the material vehicles for that spirit (Mother Earth). Many condemn such ideas as respecting the environment as ‘new age’ and all that type of BS…but that theme starts with Adam…we are not tending our garden…(most of us that is)…what makes us think we will be rewarded for negligence by being blissfully swept away from the evidence of our lack of trustworthiness? That’s nonsense, again.

is it because your deity is a child that sees attention as more worthy than compassion?

‘my diety’ is not a child…because I am not a child. I do not seek attention and hold compassion very high on my list of principles. I have always been that way, more or less. And many people go to their graves over and over again just as much of a child as they were start to finish in the prior experience. It is up to us….we can make our experiences into ‘miracles’ or ‘crimes’ as Edgar Cayce says.

In Genesis it says ‘make man in the image of our likeness.’ That is like setting a photo in front of a mirror…and when Paul says Christ is the ‘express image of the Father’ that means it is like looking directly at self in that same mirror. No more self-delusions and denial and self-deception. So what people portray God as being is essentially what they see in themselves (or rather don’t see or maybe even hide behind to self-justify). The only problem with deceit that we have is that of self. And it is a very hard hurdle to clear. It is hard for most people to feel they are lovable because they only see their shortcomings instead of their talents…and their shortcomings are seen as something unbeatable rather than challenges that CAN be overcome if sincere desire to better one’s character is made. We are all perfect in some ways and totally a mess in other ways. But unless we accept what needs improvement as being just that – no different than a fence needing a coat of paint…we cannot do anything but continue to live a life detached from even ourselves.

is it because reason is evil?

No! Reason is divine – logic, too. But only if applied ‘dispassionately’ which means separated from opinions. Seeking to understand for the sake of understanding….not to compare or justify self or diversionary tactics to avoid personal accountability.
Scientists are often no more reasonable than the religious – because they attach themselves prematurely to their THEORIES and don’t realize that their tests are not objective but subtly designed to prove themselves right in the first place. And really, what does it matter? If we knew everything, what would we do? Eat, poop, and sleep? Fun. Yeah.

honestly, what's the issue here?

Well, I think I have explained to some extent the general issue. But then there is the issue of Madness…always the same cynical overly skeptical challenging posts from you. And I know that I, for one, try my best to give you valid answers as I understand them. But yet you seem to ignore REASON and LOGIC which I KNOW I do present in my exchanges with you and others…if you really want to know, then find out for yourself. Am I thinking correctly that you say you study Buddhism somewhat? If so, then what I say should clear things up a lot – the whole thing is far more Buddhist than anything else….and I have had experiences that tell me it is true and not just preference.

So sometimes I wonder if you really want to know…or if you are mad about something related to all this. Don’t accept other people’s religious/spiritual ideas as ‘truth’ and then treat the real ‘truth’ as if it is a fairy tale talking toad prince that isn’t even worth the retelling again. Find your truth yourself…your way. If you seek truth for truth’s sake you will be satisfied. But you are far too closed minded and that limits you in ways you do not realize.

why would the abrahamic mountain god favor faith over everything else?

Do you value your ‘good name’, madness? As in: personal integrity and fulfilling your personal responsibility, just in life in general…in school and at work? A man is only as good as his name – same goes for God. IF there IS A GOD, wouldn’t you want him to be trustworthy? And wouldn’t you think that would be something only established on a one-on-one basis? Men are double minded and unstable in their ways and it ends up looking as if it is God who is at fault. No.

could one save the entire world from certain destruction and go to hell for being an atheist?

We are all already in ‘hell’…and it is far better to be an honest atheist than a hypocrite spouting God’s name as some sort of status elevation while simultaneously dragging the name of God through the mud….

It would only require absolute trust in God’s ability to see what we cannot and to not lie to us – if God is pure spirit then He is a complete source of information…and the world condemns his interactions with us as witchcraft and ‘of the devil’ because they cannot understand the strange nature of visions and things that just don’t seem possible (because they don’t trust enough to experience such). Joan of Arc is the best example we have, documented. It takes balls to be a savior – whether nationally or globally. She was for real…her experiences were legit and she was called a witch. And so she was, whatever ‘witch’ means. I am, too, although if I were male it would probably be ‘prophet’ or at the least ‘crazy.’ God doesn’t give vision and ethereal powers to those who will abuse others and oppress with such. That is why it is condemned to Israel in the bible. But I know that it is only a matter of reasons and character and I understand why, myself. It is hard to be in that position, especially with people you love and who KNOW you…it feels like betrayal no matter what. Off topic but I have some things to share about that real soon. Maybe then you might understand a little better – or someone, anyone! If not, then so be it.

is god that petty?

God is magnanimous beyond description. Men are petty. Atheists included.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Could you quote it for us? I don't have a bible right now and I can't afford to buy one just for a quote.

biblegateway is free online and there is also blueletterbible dot something...

you can also download 'e-sword' for free and it is good no matter what the purpose in reading because the basic download is the KJV (which is archaic but more consistent in the old testament) with 'stong's numbers' which means, when you mouse over the superscript numbers associated with each word or phrase, a tool tip comes up and gives the actual meaning of the word when it was written...and this is especially important for the new testament - most of what people think the bible says is totally off base because language morphs constantly and 2000 years is a long time.

I think someone such as yourself would benefit from that because it would eliminate religious misled overtones and clarify much for you, which I sense is what you desire. And you can always U2U me about such things - I despise religion and have a love for precision in language that rivals that of Confuscious!

Plus I don't feel any need to convince you of anything or change your mind or convert your soul or any such thing...I don't believe in the gold star merit method to 'heaven'!

(((((xoxoxox)))))))

to you from me!

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Could you quote it for us? I don't have a bible right now and I can't afford to buy one just for a quote.

you can also download 'e-sword' for free and it is good no matter what the purpose in reading.......

I will vouch for this as well. Annie turned me on to e-sword and it is a nice little piece of software. Don't think of us as apologetics trying to find excuses for why some of the bible says certain things. A few people on here know good and well the literal wording of the bible is poorly translated. I've noticed it seems to be written for a mass audience and not very particular when you account for the original wording.

MajorMalfunction, I have read your stuff on here, and don't want to press you on this issue, but always be a student of truth. Do not ever think that one way is the only way. The narrow path is narrow because it is so wide. That is why it is the path less chosen because everyone wants their own little path instead of one they can walk with their brothers and sisters.


Anyway, I know you can find the info if you really wanted to, but don't be a stranger. FSM is cool and I can totally dig it.

Now if I can get Columbus and Madnessinmysoul to stop the rampage, atheists and theist could probably coexist and maybe have a cook out with an open bar.

Originally posted by ben91069

Now if I can get Columbus and Madnessinmysoul to stop the rampage, atheists and theist could probably coexist and maybe have a cook out with an open bar.

Just so long as nobody expects me to lead the prayer before eating. LOL

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

Originally posted by ben91069

Now if I can get Columbus and Madnessinmysoul to stop the rampage, atheists and theist could probably coexist and maybe have a cook out with an open bar.

Just so long as nobody expects me to lead the prayer before eating. LOL

Like the bible says, when you pray; do so in private so that only the Father can hear you. Not out in the open to make a long winded speech in front of everyone. People who do that have already received their reward.

Besides, my Father knows I am thankful for the food and doesn't need praise all the time. I need only prove that to myself and not to the world. Let the dead pray out loud.

[edit on 15-5-2007 by ben91069]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
but soldier, i've had a chance to know your deity, hell i actively sought out god for the better part of two years and came up empty.

Just wondering, but how exactly did you seek God during those two years? Reading Richard Dawkins certainly won't help.

Originally posted by ben91069
Now if I can get Columbus and Madnessinmysoul to stop the rampage, atheists and theist could probably coexist and maybe have a cook out with an open bar.

"I am loth to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearthstone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
- Abraham Lincoln's Inaugural Address

No matter what our ideologies are, we are not the ones to judge and we should be loving towards one another at all times.