British Hostages NOT tortured even remotely!

Originally posted by Blaine91555
They were taken against their will while conducting an operation under a UN Mandate. Kept captive with no control over any aspect of their lives. They did not know when or if food or water would be supplied. They did not know if they were there for a day, week, month, year or the rest of their lives. There was nothing they could do to save themselves and did not know if anyone would come to save them or when. If that is not torture what is?

And how does that compare to Guantanamo?

Why are you not condemning Iran for posing them for propaganda photos. is? Why have they allowed people who belong in an asylum to rule over them?

What? I am not condemning Iran right now because if I were them, I would've taken the pictures too so that western ideologies can't make up any more shyte that willl make them a target for bombs. BTW, what if they were in Iranian waters? Have you seen that waterway? Iraq's portion is as small as an olympic sized pool by comparision to the large waters.

Every time I think of a parent strapping a bomb to their own offspring to blow up innocent members of their own population I get the chills. The evil it would take to do that boggles the mind.

While I agree that their actions seem barbaric. Why don't you try to live in a area where your grandfather, father, most brothers, have been killed by a western bomb. Israel has illegally occupied palestine for decades against the UN draft resolution 242, which permits their presence. Oops, USA vetos every condemnation from the world in regards to Israel.

So, remember now, you have no granbdfather, father, or brothers anymore, and the occupiers are still oppressing you everyday.

After you have lived through this reality for twenty years. You tell me what is barbaric.

Try putting yourself in other people shoes.

AAC

You know what people it's like in a few other of these threads people have been saying neither side have credibility or can take the moral highground it could of been alot worse for the sailors but the fact of the matter is they're home safe and the political games will continue on and on after they're 15 minutes of fame have faded.

Another thing is the public are getting wise to this kind of stuff i mean really credibility is one thing that the sailors do not have because people are thinking well they said they lied while in Iran what's to stop them lying while there back home.

SR,

Very true. But this is not a good actuality to be face with. What ever happened to "truth will set you free?"

AAC

This one is easy. Being taken hostage is torture. In fact it is such an egregious crime it carries the death penalty in many jurisdictions

Well if that is the case, then lets put Alberto Gonzales and the entire Bush regime on the electric chair then.

The thousands of prisoners taken by the West, most of them front line goat herders who just happened to be in the area, being subjected to horrific torture and humiliation, have you seen the pictures, held for years!

How many people at Guantanamo are being held without any reason at all, just because they are of arab faith, nearly 700 of them still there, no trial, no lawyer, no charges. And because they dont know anything, they cant give the right answers, so they torture them some more, its sick folks, and anyone who supports it is sick.

But when british soldiers are held, treated fairly well, then released 13 days without incident, people cause an uproar about that, but when our government does 10x worse to 100x more people, well thats okay.

Double standard, its discusting. The hypocrisy, the ignorance, the self righteousness of the small majority of Americans who still think America is invincible, and is the epitome of perfection, who can do no wrong.

Being American means never having to say your sorry. Being American means never having to take responsibility for your actions. 600,000 civilians killed, is it justified?

Lightworker, this is hypocracy/double standard at its best. I just try to reveal that to people yet they aren't subscribing to it. It would be too much to accept for them at this stage of their being.

Ow well, one day the "fair" will govern or not govern I should say.

Thanks for being open.

AAC

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
SR,

Very true. But this is not a good actuality to be face with. What ever happened to "truth will set you free?"

AAC

I know it kind of makes everything look less bright when thinking like that I like i'm sure many others joined this site in order to find the truth and/or parts of it as well. I hope and still believe that one day we'll all find the truth and be set free

We will my friend. We will. The fortunate part is that it will happen in our lifetime. That is the real interesting part.

Take care. AAC

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation

Try putting yourself in other people shoes.

AAC

Are you in those shoes? What about the shoes lying in the street after the person was blown up by someone from the same country? They are blowing up their own people who practice the same religion. How could anyone take that as anything but insanity!

This is actually a bash the Westerners thread is it not? We have problems I admit. Our problems are minuscule compared to parts of the Middle East and what they are doing to themselves. When someone here blows up a bunch of people at a mall or restaurant for the fun of it; we put them in jail for life. When the same thing happens there; they are called martyrs and heroes. When someone blows up their own child on purpose they are heroes. Sick -Sick - Sick!!! You think these folks can be trusted?

Are the statements made by Iraq's leaders lies? Why would they tell lies like that? Or could it be they mean what they say and they really are trying to take over the world by force? Maybe??? Could it be they truly want to force everyone to live under Sharia Law? Is it possible they really are going to destroy the West as they have said? Wouldn't an intelligent person defend themselves before they build Nuclear Weapons and send them our way as they have promised to do?

I've sat face to face with honest people who have served in Guantanamo. It's not possible to disprove a lie. The Red Cross is there all the time and they don't appear to have an issue. Lies are not facts. In this case its just an argument used by a tiny group of people who get pleasure out of other peoples suffering. Otherwise why would they defend terrorist. Unless of course they are themselves terrorists which is probably the real truth (Not directed at you in any way as I'm refering to those who start these lies). It is also coming from political activists who would be just as bad as terrorists except they don't kill people with bombs. They kill people with words to incite and encourage those who kill people with bombs. They want their candidates to win so badly they would risk inciting violence to win. We do indeed have lots of sick people in government. The cause is to many illiterates and radicals voting and not enough rational informed people voting. Otherwise most of our leaders would be washing dishes where they belong.

Dude have you ever thought maybe we should just leave them alone and stop judging them and bullying them into western ways through the Saudi's etc.

Saddam wouldn't even be long gone and dead now if he didn't stop being the west's whipping boy.

It's amazing how people can claim oh west bashing i mean seriously what else do you want people us to call it.

Africa
South America
Far East
Middle East

It's us that have gone in and caused the trouble or caused the trouble and stormed our way in. Every damn time why couldn't the fat cat's at the top just leave them alone to there own devices instead of meddeling.

The US/UK are just tools for the powers that be, used to pretty much take over every single nation and create a globalized government. One government to rule them all. They use the mainstream media to brainwash the majority of US/UK citizens with propaganda, making them pretty much incapable of thinking logically or for themselves. Today, practically every government is controlled by the powers that be... It's just a matter of time before those government's are able to brainwash their citizens from questioning The New World Order. Converting the Bulls into Sheep.

It's when this agenda is accomplished where we will find the true meaning of fascism, authoritarian....control. It's either wake up now, or wake up to a world where the word 'freedom' is non existent.

Lets talk about the suicide bombers.

Heres a question. Have any of you ever heard of trauma-based mind control?

books on trauma based mind control

Your government admits that torture is widespread in Iraq. They dont tell you just how widespread it is.

Why would anybody strap a bomb to themselves and blow up their fellow country men, unless they were under fundamental mind control?

All it takes is one torture session, and you can create a suicide bomber. They can do it in half an hour by sticking tubes in your brains, and they could quickly reduce you to the level of some maniac.

I know this is hard to believe. You can control someones mind with torture? And our government has been experimenting and perfecting it for 50 years, with the tactics they learned from the Nazi scientists they brought to the West after WW2 in Project Paperclip, so they can use it to their advantage against the people? I cant believe that! Well believe it.

If you want I can explain how it works, but this is not the time, so I plead everyone who cares about this world to please please go research trauma based mind control, there is one book I highly recommend, MK ULTRA Monarch Mind Control by Fritz Springmeier, former West Point attendee, and former mind-deprogrammer. He goes into it in scientific detail, and yes this is very real.

Nobody who has control over their own mind would purposefully kill themselves along with a score of others with a bomb, that defies all basic logic of the survival instinct.

Plz learn about trauma-based mind control, learn this is how they get people to do atrocities like suicide bombings and school shootings. We must live in a world full of crazy people dont we? No, trauma based mind control has been perfected, to a point where it goes completely unnoticed.

I can explain it if you want. Trauma based mind control, utilized by CIA Black ops programs, that are kidnapping and torturing Iraqi men en masse, creating mass suicide bombers. Its not crazy people, its victims of torture.

Then when they are finished, your forces throw out propaganda leaflets around the area, saying how this shiia group did it cuz they hate you, or this sunni group did it cuz they hate you...they use this to further divide and scare the people of Iraq, and make them fear each other.

Pentagons own plans state the plan was to go in there, divide the nation into 3 sectors, and foment endless secterian violence, to ensure that Iraq falls into a civil war, so they have an excuse to build permanent bases and keep the troops there indefinately. They dont want the war to end. We talked about this before.


[edit on 9-4-2007 by LightWorker13]

And even if you dont believe any of the people who talk out against the government, you gotta at least ask yourself...

Why is your goverment receiving sooooo many accusations of evil and corruption of all kinds? Are all of us just paranoid and crazy and anti-american? Are we west haters, or maybe just maybe we work for Al Queda.

Why are so many people claiming bad against the government, do we just like to pick on the government?

Its naive to think that anyone, and there are literally millions of us, who speak out against the government, are crazy and aiding Al Queda. Thats crazy. Theres a good reason why there are so many accusations against the government.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
What about the shoes lying in the street after the person was blown up by someone from the same country? They are blowing up their own people who practice the same religion. How could anyone take that as anything but insanity!

Your interpretation of this actuality is what is insane. Blacks kill Blacks. Whites kill Whites, etc. Look at USA's Civil War. Were we all Insane when we killded for our own beliefs? You act as if you understand their actions. You only assume.

This is actually a bash the Westerners thread is it not?

It's actually a bask on Double-Standards and all propaganda. If you noticed the beginning post was aren't they all acting like children? I just live in USA so I have more perspective to their hypocracy here.

We have problems I admit.

Bravo. Wait! Knowing is only half the battle though.

Our problems are minuscule compared to parts of the Middle East and what they are doing to themselves.

If our problem is that we're causing it, or at least enabling it, how would that be "minuscule?"

When someone here blows up a bunch of people at a mall or restaurant for the fun of it; we put them in jail for life.

For the fun of it? Who's insane now?

When the same thing happens there; they are called martyrs and heroes.

Because they are fighting for their spirit, culture and lives there? But I agree, martyrdom is very sketchy on any level.

Are the statements made by Iraq's leaders lies? Why would they tell lies like that? Or could it be they mean what they say and they really are trying to take over the world by force? Maybe??? Could it be they truly want to force everyone to live under Sharia Law? Is it possible they really are going to destroy the West as they have said? Wouldn't an intelligent person defend themselves before they build Nuclear Weapons and send them our way as they have promised to do?

If we started global wars after every single threat the usa has gotten the world world be radioactive. All religions want to spread all over the world. What stops them? Militaries of countries with different religious majorities. Look at history.

I've sat face to face with honest people who have served in Guantanamo. It's not possible to disprove a lie. The Red Cross is there all the time and they don't appear to have an issue. Lies are not facts. In this case its just an argument used by a tiny group of people who get pleasure out of other peoples suffering. Otherwise why would they defend terrorist. Unless of course they are themselves terrorists which is probably the real truth (Not directed at you in any way as I'm refering to those who start these lies). It is also coming from political activists who would be just as bad as terrorists except they don't kill people with bombs. They kill people with words to incite and encourage those who kill people with bombs. They want their candidates to win so badly they would risk inciting violence to win. We do indeed have lots of sick people in government. The cause is to many illiterates and radicals voting and not enough rational informed people voting. Otherwise most of our leaders would be washing dishes where they belong.

I don't really know how to respond to this. Oh yeah, here

AAC

I guess the only hole in the OP's theory is that the pictures are merely frames in time over a span of 15 days. We can't know what happened the rest of the time. To draw conclusions one way or the other is meaningless.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
This is independent thought! You are assuming that! AAC

One poster believes what the hostages say, but you dismiss that as only an assumption. While you choose to believe what iran shows in a photo that was probably staged. But why not dismiss your beliefs as just an assumption, too? After all, don't both opinions contain the same level of "proof"?

Why so eager to only believe what the iranians say? You see, I can take the information you've posted on this thread and come up with a judgment of apologist and appeaser. Is that judgment true or fair? It seems real enough to me.

I'm surprised anyone would be so naive to believe these staged photographs over the accounts provided by the captives themselves. The footage and photographs were obviously made to look like they were 'enjoying' their time in captivity. No one enjoys their time in captivity, especially in a country like Iran. What the Iranian government did was criminal and clearly fraudulent. They should expect retribution for their actions.

Centurion, hello.

I never said that I myself wasn't assuming anything. It's hard to play devil's advocate just to get the opposition to bend, then when they finally bend they attack you for playing devil's advocate. I meant to get attention to this thread, although my OP was only to undermine other threads which wholeheartedly accepted the british and mindlessly denied the Iranians. Personally, I believe it was a stunt by the Iranians to get a chance to show that they're human and give them back before easter. But to cry out such hateful assumptions about something that we ourselves have been found guilty of is hypocrytical at worst.

When I try to get others to see both sides, it just looks like I'm on the other side. I personally want what is in the fairest interests of all people involved.

AAC

Yea I dont get it either. People are feeling sorry or pity for Iran.
They dont seem to understand that they dont care about anyone
that isnt Muslim.
People think its just Iran against the US or the UK when in reality its the Islamic Nations against the western world.
Did they torture these Brits, nope. Why? because they know better, they knew that hurting these people would possibly turn into a war. this whole thing was a publicity stunt on their behalf, trying to solicit the worlds attention on how "diplomatic" and compassionate they are. Trying to say, look what happened. The British encroached onto our waters and we had the right to detain them for questioning but here now see, were letting them go in better condition they were when we found them.. We gave them gifts and Armani Suits lol.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
This is independent thought! You are assuming that! AAC

One poster believes what the hostages say, but you dismiss that as only an assumption. While you choose to believe what iran shows in a photo that was probably staged. But why not dismiss your beliefs as just an assumption, too? After all, don't both opinions contain the same level of "proof"?

Why so eager to only believe what the iranians say?

Originally posted by laiguana
I'm surprised anyone would be so naive to believe these staged photographs over the accounts provided by the captives themselves. The footage and photographs were obviously made to look like they were 'enjoying' their time in captivity. No one enjoys their time in captivity, especially in a country like Iran. What the Iranian government did was criminal and clearly fraudulent. They should expect retribution for their actions.

It's not like I'm believing one side over the other. I am just collecting all the evidence before drawng conclusions. I just can't see how people can write off these photos. I don't care what anyone says, their faces are genuine. Not coerced. At peace. Not threatened.

All I'm saying is that this contradicts what they said. Can it still fit? Perhaps. But does it give you reason to question? Yes.

AAC

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Yea I dont get it either. People are feeling sorry or pity for Iran.
They dont seem to understand that they dont care about anyone
that isnt Muslim.
People think its just Iran against the US or the UK when in reality its the Islamic Nations against the western world.
Did they torture these Brits, nope. Why? because they know better, they knew that hurting these people would possibly turn into a war. this whole thing was a publicity stunt on their behalf, trying to solicit the worlds attention on how "diplomatic" and compassionate they are. Trying to say, look what happened. The British encroached onto our waters and we had the right to detain them for questioning but here now see, were letting them go in better condition they were when we found them..

^^^ This is exactly all I'm saying.

I'm debating the people that won't accept this reality. I'm not sympathizing with anyone, it looks that way because I'm speaking on their behalf to find the truth.

AAC