The Next Step In Domestic Disarmament

Taking over is a slow process, however in the past 7 years they took a sudden LEAP in power to say the least. That is not the whole problem though, they have grown BOLDER in that time, that is the problem. They now have whole armies of mercenaries to carry out their bidding, they did their "operation urban warrior" which was a sucess THEN they TESTED IT in New Orleans. So far they have had no opposition and what they did and continue to do no longer sees the light of day other than maybe a 15 minutes of fame or less. They have started to test their police gestapo since Vietnam along with military willingness to fire on its own people. Just watch the movie: "Sir no sir!" specifically the part about how the military turned on its own people who would dare protest. They have remedied most of that now, they are hardcore on "just doing my job, just following orders" and show no signs of changing. The police, FBI, CIA, ATF, etc are ALREADY in the program and for that matter HAVE BEEN SINCE BEFORE VIETNAM!
So what it boils own to now is how fast they can disarm people, either state by state or across the nation all at once will be A deciding factor. But not THE factor. THE factor is how long it will take them to get this police state and martial law on the roll, THAT is the kicker, after that the rest is like dominoes. The question as has been stated SO MANY TIMES is: WHEN!? That is all that is left, not the IF but WHEN. HOW LONG?!
I am someone who is at the point I say: "Ok folks, you want this, your gunning for it, so JUST DO IT! LETS GET THE SHOW ON THE ROAD ALREADY!" I am loosing patience anymore, this is becomming an unavoidable conflict so lets just light the darn fuse and see who blows up first. Thus the last one alive is the "winner."
*sigh*
Irony that we have been viewed as a nation of: "Home of the free, land of the brave" yet it is quickly becomming the other way around: "Home of the slaves, land of the cowardly."
Still, at least we are allowed to buy books right now, that is a HUGE +1 for us, but that will be the next thing to go since they are already monitoring it. Then again, they might just LEAVE THESE SYSTEMS IN PLACE so that they can monitor us while they have the good ol "off the record, thought but not spoken" rules and laws so they can take us out bit by bit.

Here is my philosphy of how they will subjugate those who would fight back:
Who do you shoot? The sheep or the hearder? If you want to cause chaos, or gain control of a flock, you do not shoot the sheep. The sheep are mearly hearded around, they have no control. The hearder though, he/she is the one who MOVES the flock, keeps it as one, manages the flock and protects it. So who would YOU shoot if you wanted to cause chaos? The sheep are effectively MUTTON FOR THE STEW POT! The hearder though is in control.
To make this simpler in case you did not understand: If they want control, they will not take out EVERYONE who opposes them, they will simply act like a sniper in war: shoot the one in control. Doing so will demoralize the protestors, thus when their leader gets knocked off, they will be less eager to put for another. Let alone if they have a council.
Despite some fools assumptions, yes they have jails enough to contain the poeple, we are living in one. Also I doubt they will bother keeping you alive if your a threat to their gestapo when they get it going.


Cant wait to see what happens with this HR Bill 1022 though.

Originally posted by Vekar
Still, at least we are allowed to buy books right now, that is a HUGE +1 for us, but that will be the next thing to go since they are already monitoring it.

I think you might find that I've tried to answer a lot of your questions in the last five or six posts in this thread.

Books...are something that I know a little about. It is getting hard to find publishers that will tackle this subject matter. That is due in large part to the fact that very few people buy books on this topic. If more people did buy books on this subject, you'd see more in print.

As I've said previously, you are not alone in your desire to want immediate action. The people in high places go out of their way to play on your frustration. If you can't learn how to take the long view in this mater and do the things that wil take time to enact, they really wil beat you and they'll enjoy the irony. YOU were their own best weapon. That's how they will see it.

I'm looking for ways to get my own work back in to print. I'm stubborn that way, so you and I might have something in common. You've got to remember that the temptation to give up isn't just nibbling on YOU. It gets to the rest of us, too.

It would be so easy for me to cancel my blogs, and walk away from ATS. I won't deny that I've thought about it. I've got a few commercial irons in fire, and it really would be sooo easy to just let 'em go. I live in Alaska, nad its nothing at all to turn your back on the rest of the world when you live here. Just don't turn on a t.v. or radio, and don't get the newspaper. Save a little money and give up that internet connection, too. After that...alll you'd ever have to do is whatever made you happy.

If I didn't advocate for government reforms, I could probably be happy as a writer of no reputation. Who knows? I might get more stuff published in I broke down and wrote something...anything...that wasn't tied to government reform. If I was weak enough to need instant gratification, I could probably do that and be quite happy.

You're not the only person to express a desire for instant gratification in this matter. All good conspirators know that time is w weapon. Social memory is flawed, and the opposition to anything can be overcome as long as your plot/scheme/agenda can outlive the opposition. The old men and women who are rising to power now do in fact know this. They've worked hard to lure you in to that "want it now" mentality. As a dark master of politics, its what I would do.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
All good conspirators know that time is w weapon. Social memory is flawed, and the opposition to anything can be overcome as long as your plot/scheme/agenda can outlive the opposition.

Right, Social memory is not only flawed, it's very short! Within a decade or so, it all but disappears. A good example of this flaw is in the current war. Weather you think it's right or wrong, isn't the point at the moment. What few realize is that some of the key people who had a hand in the decision to go to war, are the very same people who 40 years ago were protesting Vietnam. It's really amazing how time changes a person's thinking.

Tim

Justin: I have never been asking questions, I have been making statements. The only thing I was asking people to answer in their heads was about which is wiser in taking over: taking out leaders or taking out the flock. You will find I am more stubborn and bullheaded than most people, when I get wind of something worth fighting for that is what I do. I do not give up, I do not give in, I DO NOT SURRENDER.

"It is better to die on the feet, than live on your knees."
-Japanese Proverb-
Take that one to heart, because that is what true patriots and revolutionaries will do. They will not back down for any reason, because to do so is to give up and give in to your enemy.

The minds of the people are terribly short indeed, because they have never been taught. I never even learned about Vietnam till I talked to a veteran. I never learned about WW2 or WW1 untill I started reading books at the library, then it was: "wow! We had two world wars! I never knew that!" That was my honest thinking at the time, I had NO IDEA about anything in the world. After I started reading about WW1-2 and Vietnam I found out about Korea and other wars all around the world. At that point I began to delve into world geography, and learned there were over 190 nations in the world, which I never knew. Mind you, this was when I was in middle school and going into high school. When wars or terriby unjust deeds are done in the world, books are not printed on it, if so they are banned. History books omit them, or give a one page false summary. People do not talk about them, why would they? Whats the point? They were taught to forget, to think that it will "never happen again." So why worry?
When I started going deeper into history and world geography I began a third unwittingly: politicaly. That was what got me started, the hundreds upon hundreds of millions upon millions more who died for essentially nothing in the long run ate at me. Thus I started to talk to others about it, I blew A LOT of fuses, A LOT would NOT believe me. That is mainly because I have the bad habbit of living in bushland all the time whenever I move, because NO ONE ELSE WANTS TO LIVE HERE OR WORK HERE! Yet when there are no jobs elsewhere... oh well. Fish or cut bait.
History is our judge, jury, and also our mentor. To learn from history is to teach each and every generation the truth about the world. The wars, the politics, the rights gained and lost in one night alone. The rise and fall of empires, and the corruption and scandals in government. When children are finally taught to ALWAYS REMEMBER what happened and is happening, they will not commit the same mistakes as easily. It will be twice if not a hundred times as hard for a tyrant or tyrans to gain control or begin their death march. People MUST be taught to remember, begin that in the 5th-6th grade when they start learning about the American Revolution and work your way up. Then to make education more adequate: have a history 2 (currently you have: world geography (HAH!), US history (BS!) followed by US government and Economics (BS!)) that covers more modern history, post WW2-present. Do this in the high schools, make it mandatory no MATTER WHAT! You HAVE to take modern world history (includes USA) and pass it. This is one step in teaching them, and on every wall of every school PAINTED should be a: "Never forget, lest ye repeat history" or take the Greek proverb which is better: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." and have it all over the place and in EVERY SINGLE HISTORY BOOK! I do not care what age it is for, have that right in the front and have a short paragraph explaining it for those who do not comprehend...
Another important factor is making this vivid, put pictures of the modern crimes in the books and do comparisons, show the pictures of dead children, soldiers, raped women and children. Put it right up front in colour that is 6"x8." Then make sure you drill it into their brains: "If you do not learn, this is your future and your childrens, childrens future." It might not soak in at first, but when they have some kids I bet it will. It sunk in for me the first time I saw those kinds of pictures.


Now back to the present:
Walking away (for me) is NEVER an option, one I do not even consider.

Unless it is some punk just trying to get points with his buddies who is just a two bit petty, wannabe crook/hotshot.

Now here IS a question for you Justin: which state would be first on the block? Then which state would be the first to rebel? Know the answer to that one, and you know where they are likely to hit hardest.

You are quite right to say that a lot of people today are unaware of recent history. In terms of world history, the last 100 years is relevent, and untaught. In as much as you may be spoiling for a fight, its not time for that...yet. It is time for us to to be talking about the past and how it relates to our future.

Many of the historical moments you've cited can be used to make the larger point that we are headed for trouble. "Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it." Passion is good, but its not enough. Everything you have learned needs to be passed on to other people. Knowledge is power.

this is a hot topic right now, and I'm getting a steady amount of u2's from people who want to have the fight and get it over with. Our civic goal should be to NOT have that fight at all. We can and we should prepare for it, but we should not be so eager for it that we're willing to give up on the options we haven't used.

Writing one letter to a newspaper does not end a person's civic involvement. Posting on ATS is not enough to signify anyone's committment. All wars can be dissected in to hundreds of smaller battles. All the battles in a war can be further defined by thousands of smaller engagements. This metaphor applies to this discussion for one reason. To win this argument, many millions of us must do many things for many years before we'll have any real chance of swaying public opinion ju-ust enogh to gain the political support we want to avoid the worst of what could come.

Before anyone can really believe you, you'll need to establish a track record. Millions of us will have to be at this for a long time before the majority will believe what we say. Anybody can win a debate with one person using a few good arguments, but it'll take millions of people with millions of winning arguments and condemning examples to be credible to that majority. In the modern world, this means having more than an attitude and a sharp tongue. It means writing, posting. speaking, publishing, and a whole host of other things that will be made possible as technology advances to allow us to reach more and more people.

When anyone says, "people are unaware," they are stating a fact without committing to any real effort to solve the problem. When you encounter somebody who doesn't know, tell them. Show them. Give them the tools to defeat their own ignorance. Yes, you'll have to keep repeating yourself...but...that's why they call it good citizenship. Anything worth doing is hard. Being mad at the other guy because he doesn't know what you know is a waste of your time and talent. Use your powers for good. Spread knowledge. If the fight comes, you'll know you did your best to avoid it. If it does NOT come, you'll know that you had a hand in stoping it.

I have given speeches, I have handed out information and so on. I have taken steps already, however over the past 7 years zero has been accomplished. They simply throw a puppet out to be butchered if they need a scapegoat while the real leaders and thinktanks remain untouched and unharmed let alone the fact they are unduanted. Remember though, just starting the fight will cause huge problems for one of two sides, more than likely being us. The reasoning behind my willingness to just get this overwith is because I have watched it build up for over 40 years. At the same time I have watched the body count rise and rise. And I am sick of it.
None the less, information has been pushed for over 7 years on corruption, and 7 years on the current administration and their advances towards the gestapo. The point being the sooner this thing starts the sooner it will FORCE the other 30% to wake up. That would give us a significant increase in numbers. That is unless they back down and prove to be cowards, and in that case: they would never have joined us in the first place, so good riddance.
Now if this comes down to armed revolution, we are NOT ready for that, they would mop the floor with us despite our numbers. However the need to get this thing going to prove to the people and the world that without the shadow of a doubt they want this gestapo is something that would be a great relief. There is one thing that eats at me: not knowing where or when. It goes back to military tactics of a gurilla fighter: make sure your enemy is on edge, always expecting but never knowing.
The fact that people are awakening and the elite STILL do not care but are only picking up pace as they gain more ground proves a point:
The hourglass is running dry.

"The sands of time wait for no one"
-Basic Wisdom-

The people have less than 2 years to do something major to turn things around or face one HECK of a war, which could be for good or bad pending on who wins. So the people have a chance at peace, yet the elites do not care, yet they have less than 2 years at my estimate before the elites get total control. After total control is gained it will be neigh impossible to reversice it peaceably.
Those who want to just jump into a fray though are fools, I want to see them start the darn thing so I can use it as proof, UNDENIABLE proof because it is apparent to the WHOLE WORLD and the ENTIRE POPULACE! As for the fight itself: not even I would be ready for that if it came to armed revolution, willpower is there, but we do not have the numbers or means. Yet. Probably take a good two more years for armed revolution to break out after the gestapo is in full swing though, people do not have what they need to fight back, YET.

I can appreciate your frustration. I'm glad to be having this discussion with you. You're not the only one who wants to have this over and done with. We would be wrong to accelerate the process. As long as we are seen to be figthing it every step of the way, we will have the credibility that we need...if and when the time comes.

Originally posted by Vekar
I have given speeches, I have handed out information and so on. I have taken steps already, however over the past 7 years zero has been accomplished.

I think you might be dead wrong on this point. In purest civic terms, your efforts are not wasted as long as you have been heard by somebody who changed their mind. Information is power, but all good conspirators know that your real influence lies in your ability to get other people to know what you know...and change their minds.

It's a known sociological fact that the average person who has had their point of view changed on a subject will only tell two other persons about that change of heart. The simple fact is that you've got to reach a lot of people, or you've got to get a lot of people talking about your issue. I don't care who you are, that ain't easy.

These truths leave you with one option. Reach out to others when you can, as you can. All good conspirators know that the average person doesn't have a stomach for that much committment to anything. That's why they don't fear us. To beat them, we have to keep on talking about the subjects that most interest us.

In this case, we're probably not going to win, but...we will have said enough things to enough people through speeches, books, blogs, and other technical mediums to make sure that our words last long after we are gone. If that's not enough, consider one last thing. The current level of resistence has forced the the people in power to act over the span of atleast five decades. Would it be worth doing to keep their agenda on hold for another five decades? How about just one more year?

Originally posted by Vekar
They simply throw a puppet out to be butchered if they need a scapegoat while the real leaders and thinktanks remain untouched and unharmed let alone the fact they are undaunted.

All good conspirators know that for every visible resistor, there are atleast three unseen persons who feel the same way. Some resistors have rather large followings. Let 'em have their scapegoats. So long as you remain active and rational, it will always be possible for you to speak truth to power and tell some-body what you think, know, or believe.

Originally posted by Vekar
Remember though, just starting the fight will cause huge problems for one of two sides, more than likely being us. The reasoning behind my willingness to just get this overwith is because I have watched it build up for over 40 years. At the same time I have watched the body count rise and rise. And I am sick of it.

Sounds like you need some perspective. This struggle to which we so loosely refer has been going on since well before either one of us was born. If we remain pursuasive, it could continue well after we are both gone. If nothing else, there is civic principle at stake, and you've got to decide for youself if that is worth "enduring" for.

Originally posted by Vekar
None the less, information has been pushed for over 7 years on corruption, and 7 years on the current administration and their advances towards the gestapo. The point being the sooner this thing starts the sooner it will FORCE the other 30% to wake up. That would give us a significant increase in numbers. That is unless they back down and prove to be cowards, and in that case: they would never have joined us in the first place, so good riddance.

My granny warned me not to throw the baby out with the bath water. You're making assumptions based on your pessimism. The current President is just one in a long line of leaders who have made mistakes or taken deliberate steps which have brought us to this point. If you are bent now, I suggest you get ready for siezures. If we are right, the next President (no matter who that actually is) will do things that will drive you wild...and...possibly change a lot of minds. If you want to be credible in the future, when much of this is expected, you need to be credible now.

Originally posted by Vekar
Now if this comes down to armed revolution, we are NOT ready for that, they would mop the floor with us despite our numbers. However the need to get this thing going to prove to the people and the world that without the shadow of a doubt they want this gestapo is something that would be a great relief.

That 30% you mentioned earlier will need to hear the bad news from a lot of people before they'll believe what's happening. If we wanted this fight to get under way just to prove that 'we' were right, we'd be no better than the people we oppose. You can't rent moral high ground. You've got to stand on it for so long that people think you own it. The only way to do that is to stay on task. Talk about it, write about it, and point out every example that you can find to prove your points.

Originally posted by Vekar
There is one thing that eats at me: not knowing where or when. It goes back to military tactics of a gurilla fighter: make sure your enemy is on edge, always expecting but never knowing. The fact that people are awakening and the elite STILL do not care but are only picking up pace as they gain more ground proves a point: The hourglass is running dry.

Your desire to strike out only reinforces my point. That's an itch you just can't scratch until you're forced to it. All good conspirators know that they can discredit anyone who is that irritated. It's an age old tactic that is used to lull opponents in to a false sense of sencurity, and it does work. Credibility is like that moral high ground I mentioned. You can't buy it. You've got to earn it. The only way you do that is...persistence.

Originally posted by Vekar
Those who want to just jump into a fray though are fools, I want to see them start the darn thing so I can use it as proof, UNDENIABLE proof because it is apparent to the WHOLE WORLD and the ENTIRE POPULACE! As for the fight itself: not even I would be ready for that if it came to armed revolution, willpower is there, but we do not have the numbers or means. Yet. Probably take a good two more years for armed revolution to break out after the gestapo is in full swing though, people do not have what they need to fight back, YET.

Your own words reinforce the point I made earlier. Perhaps...just maybe...it would be good for you to find a way to focus that frustration. There are a lot of us here on ATS who think that trouble is coming. We can always use new suggestions that might result in new ways to prevent what we think is coming. We can also use constructive thought that might give us some insight as to what things might actually be like...if this did happen. To quote Donald Rumsfeld, "there are things we know we don't know." How do we sustain our civic virtue in this crisis? How do we prevent ourselves from becoming like the people we oppose? How do we stay out of jail and keep our cable t.v.? So many questions, and so few people to try and find the answers.

Justin the only "frustration" I have is with the people who refuse to listen or believe. Now as for the "wasted" speeches and the like: true 100%. I live on a Native American reservation and they are so gung-ho government you would not believe it unless you saw it. The group I am currently putting up with (I work here, but am 100% NOT Native American in any shape or regard) are a bunch of bafoons. They all like to hiss and spit at the government, then come dividen day they all line up outside the tribal office BEGGING AND PLEEDING for their free government money. One other tribe gets $2000 USD PER HEAD in the family, so they have 12 kids each, are all drunks, the kids are high on coc aine ALLLL the time and flunk out regularly in life. Then they go and commit suicide, or kill someone else in the tribe with drunk driving, or someone else NOT from the tribe.
I have talked for over 3 years on this one reservation alone, and NO ONE listens, they hiss and spit at me, or shake their heads and walk off or hide from me. My speeches were wasted, why? The only ones who WOULD listen ALREADY believe most of what I believe! The others will NOT change, they LIKE the boot. They LIKE being stomped on because they are given 100% FREE healthcare, food, government sponsored housing, a paid for tribal government, their own "nation" and a couple hundred thousand other things. Including their own laws, yet they can vote in OUR (heh, not OURS anymore though) elections.
Justin you would have to live where I live for more than 3 years to understand why I said that. Even remotely.
Heads turned: 0
Evidence used: 100%, pictures and movies included. Along with copies of the documents.
I am glad to say the NA (Native American) populace is less than 1% of the USA.

Anyway, as for the rest of your comments:
Scapegoats: I was refering to the elites, they are the ones who use this, and the rest of the people fall for it. Most not all.
Prespective: No kidding sherlock, remember Bill Moyers special back in 1987 or so about the shadow government? He went back even further, more than the "40 years" I talked about. This goes back all the way to WW1 and then works its way up.
Pessimism: wrong. I am refering to the hardcore bu#es, they will have no choice but to realize what is going on at that point and make a decision. A handfull of fanatics are a deadly foe unless you are ready for them, and people are not.
That 30%: again, read above. Anyway, my point being they will not be ABLE to hear it from other people because everything is shut down and locked down or monitored heavily. More so than already. I want them to use their own eyes and ears to realize what is going on, if they are not willing to trust their own eyes, then they are long lost and there is nothing we can do for them. Granted there will be a few who will still be talking, but not many, so we do NOT have the luxury of "the many" at THAT point, being the gestapo is running. Everyone is too busy hiding.
Irritated: I am not, just annoyed. I do scratch at it by warning people of what we will face if nothing changes, then I also tell them promptly what else could happen such as a George Orwell 1984. I already gave a speech on this to some locals. Justin, my point in that one which you missed was the hourglass. The sands of time wait for no one. If we wait too long, we will be unable to avert the conflict. The fact the elites are speeding up on things is showing us the hourglass is near empty as stated. Yet we still have that trickle of time. USE IT OR LOOSE IT! Forever!
Reinforce: That was clarification of what I said in a previous post because you did not catch my meaning. So I clarified. Once again: not frustrated, just annoyed. A little eager perhaps. Eager to end this "game" of Russian roulet. Mainly by loading the chamber and pointing it across the table rather than at ourselves.

Now to answer your last questions: Easily done too:
Civic virtue: practice it, TEACH IT!
Prevent: Do not play their game, do not use their game against others, hold the value of the whole not the one in view. Do not murder and rape people like they do. Fight when need be, not because its a quick way to end opposition. Sometimes. A bomb will kill your enemies, but turn the survivors against you even more, to undermine them by converting others to your side and turning against them... That is from Sun Tzu, the ability to win a battle without fighting. That is true wisdom and ability.
Stay out of jail, cable TV: That part is up to them, if your a truth speaker you should know this by now. For the rest of the populace and world I can sum it up like a Vietnam Green Buret did:
"The old woman who smiles at your in the morning, and gives you a cup of rice will the the SAME person who is hunting you tonight."
In short: smile at them, then when they turn their back stab it. Once again, most of this is up to THEM not US. They can do just about whatever they want now. We are litteraly at their mercy.

If you want answers: use common sense and take a lesson from history. In the end there is only ONE question: "Whom shall you side with?"
The rest is trivia that is answered if you stop and think. Or just look at a history book and see how others solved it.

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia

Originally posted by Flighty

Unfortunately, we have a sense of helplessness here. We can't go out and buy a gun to defend ourselves if ever a situation arises where we would ever need to. We are now hostages to whatever future Governments have in store for us and also sitting targets if ever a looney terrorist group wants to create their own militia group to short circuit our system from within and gain control.

Flighty,
I agree with everything you have said except the above quote.....At the moment we CAN go out and buy guns, it is not illegal or prohibited to own a firearm in Australia.....not yet anyway. You are limited by law to what firearms you can purchase and own, and you must have a need for it.

The need for it is the thing that is hard to provide.
Unlike the States where self-defence is a valid reason to have a gun.
I live in the middle of Sydney. Unless I join a shooting club or apply for a security license then it would be very hard to show cause to enable me to get a gun license and purchase a gun. Is that correct? That's what I"ve been told. It's a lot easier in rural areas but very hard in the cities.

To add to the ridiculousness of the situation, as you'd know MM, that a criminal could break into my apartment with the intent to kill me for all I would know, stumble on a chair, break his leg and he can sue me for damages. Can you imagine THAT every happening in the U.S?

Or what about the law that you can only defend yourself force against force. That is, you can only offer resistance in self-defence equal to the weapon of the offender. Who's to know if THEY have a gun or not?
You can't even have a gun for self-defense or to defend your property. It's ludicrous.
As Howard said years ago when passing the legislation after Port Arthur...Why would anyone living in a city like Sydney or Melbourne need a gun for anyway?
Well, why indeed. So much has happened in the world and Australia since Port Arthur to make us feel uneasy.
That's the problem with disarmament. It might be a good idea at the time but you don't know what's going to happen years down the road.





[edit on 6-5-2007 by Flighty]

As demonstrated by Flighty, there are other nations that have harsher gun laws, and we can see how that policy has or has not affected them. for now, we must continue our protests in this country with as much civility and civic muscle as we can generate.

[edit on 7-5-2007 by Justin Oldham]

As predicted, we have witnessed yet another incident that will be used by the mainstream media and Federal agencies to pursuade us that we need government help more than we need to be responsible for our own actions.

It's true that many of the perpetrators in this case were in the U.S. illegally, but that won't be the issue that gets the most air time. It should. When we we talk about the politics of domestic disarmament, we need to remember that our civic responsibilities call for a carefully defined argument. Immigration policy failed, and civic virtue saved the day because one citizen took the appropriate actions.

These people got caught when they tried to have video tapes of their deeds copied. The store owner paid attention, and did his duty as a good American. I can think of no better example of how things SHOULD work. One observant person can make all the difference. In this case, there was no gun play and noboyd had to die.

As responsible gun owners, we may never have to pull the trigger if we're on the ball and ready to use our brains before we opt for the bullets. Police and law enforcemtn of all kinds may not always be able to help us, but we need to give them the chance. Likewise, police across the country need to be aware that its not always easy for us to reach them. Its frustrating when they don't believe us.

If you're going to use this case in a gun control argument, focus on the facts. Civics mattered.

hello justin first i would like to say i admire your dedication, and your ability to be determined but also rational.

now i will pose a question which i hope you could answer regarding your opinion on any relationship between the forward progress of anti-gun laws and a decline in economic "well -being"

because IMO a large recession (or worse) is looming for most everyone but the elite, and i know people's attitudes and expecations toward the market can actual delay the inevitable but this also can make it worse (long term) i think the storm that lies ahead will have enough wind to displace the sand surrounding most people's heads.

either way my question is in history is there any evidence that shows anti-gun lesislature gets more leverage when an economy's standard of living has just fallen into the "crapper" ?

or even if it is somewhat vague to you think this ( poss. future ecomomic hardship) would be effective to exploit the public and further gun control laws



[edit on 19-5-2007 by cpdaman]

Originally posted by cpdaman
either way my question is in history is there any evidence that shows anti-gun lesislature gets more leverage when an economy's standard of living has just fallen into the "crapper" ?

America has had a unique history of firearmsn ownership among Western nations. Gun ownershp has been restricted by the oldest Western nations for quite some time. This was done at a time in their past when "brigandry" was a very severe problem. That's crime, to you and me. Robbers, highwaymen, and the occasional mercenary.

Western monarchs did restrict firearms for other reasons, which did include the threat of coupe de'tat (overthrow) or regicide (assassination of the royalty). Leaders throughout the ages have always feared revolt or revolution. that's why they went out of theri weay to be so restrictive of civilian weapons, in general.

Western European leaders took note of Napoleon's rise to power, and his creation of the Grande Armee. Even after that famous Corsican was gone, his legacy was a source of heated debate. then, as now, having a large army means that there are so many guns floating around that its easier for the criminals to get ahold of them.

During the age of colonialism, governments kept their domestic populations disarmed while going out of their way to arm colonists. This was necessary to overcome the indiginous peoples. Because so many of the colonies were volatile places, it was common for them to have very large army garrisons. Kings and Prime Ministers retained the capability to arm or disarm as they saw fit...until...the Americans came along.

The American colonies were the engine that drove the British economy. Until the revolt, they were easy to manage...which meant...you guessed it, that nobody thought about those guns. We made what we couldn't buy. that's where things changes and the historical trend 'split.'

The real answer to your question "occurrs" in the 20th century, following World War Two. Most of the colonies that gained their independence in the 1950's and 60's did so by force of arms. Local conditions, mainly in Africa, were so bad that the people took up arms. Eventually, the colonial masters decided that they'd had enough.

Here in the United States, crime goes down when times are good. Crime goes up again when times are bad. When we think of American crime, we need to break it down in to three categories. Economic crime, vice crime, and social crime.

Economic crime happens when times get hard. Men and women turn to theft and murder to pay their bills. The worst of this that we've ever seen actually happened in the period 1929-1939.

vice crime happens when when times are very good, and very bad. When the poor have nothing left to loose, they get involved in vice and the violence associated with. 1900-1910 would be a good timeframe to exame if you want to know more.

When the rich have too much time and money, they get wrapped up in vice and the social ills that come from it. We've seen this in two different decades. The 1920's and the 1980's would be ideal periods to exame if you want to learn more.

Social crime is always with us. Race killings, wife beatings, and religious motivated violence.

Ultimately, what you're getting at here is the supposition that when the predicted economic downturn comes, Americans will grab their guns and get much more violent. I do think it will happened, but we'll need to be ready for two seperate motivations which will merge in to one terrible wave of violence.

As the economy tanks, you'll see a dramatic rise in economic crimes, but you'll also see some rebellion against government. The resulting chaos could...in my opinion...spark a revolt. No, not a civil war. A revolt.

Please note, I have been asked to prepare a thread on this revolt topic, and I'm still working on it. Stay tuned.

Does that help?

I'd like to make you aware of this ATS thread which offers new proof that the Federal government is continuing to push for gun control.

the following article comes from American Free Press dot-com. For your convenience, I'm displaying it here.

NEW GUN-GRAB SCHEME EXPOSED

Gun Banners Try New Tactic on Dealers; BATF Aims to Bankrupt Honest Sellers



By Mark Anderson

A tyrannical trend has rocked the world of Second Amendment supporters. The oldest still-operating gun store in Idaho, Red’s Trading Post in Twin Falls, is being targeted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), a relic from the days of Prohibition that is setting its sights on law-abiding firearms sellers, nitpicking over clerical errors to wage a war of attrition.

More troubling still is the fact that this appears to be part of an organized campaign to force gun dealers out of business across the country.

On March 5, 2007, Red’s license to acquire firearms was to be revoked. However, for the time being, in accordance with a federal judge’s injunction in favor of Red’s, the store can continue selling firearms as it has done for the last 71 years. Red’s first opened its doors in 1936, under the management of a great grandfather of Ryan Horsley, a current owner.

U.S. attorneys currently are asking U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge to terminate his May 2 injunction that allowed Red’s to continue full operations.

“We’ve spent $70,000 [on legal fees] so far . . . and there’s still no court date,” Horsley told American Free Press on July 11. He believes the ATF and U.S attorneys want to avoid setting a court date since the feds might lose the case and receive unwanted publicity.

Their tactic appears to be: Find clerical glitches, if any, make court filings and exhaust Red’s finances.

“They’re trying to win by attrition,” said Horsley, adding that every legal rebuttal to the citations from each ATF visit costs the store $5,000 to $6,000.

In granting the injunction, Lodge noted: “The ATF speaks of violations found during the inspections of 2000 and 2005, but fails to reveal that additional investigations in 2001 and 2007 revealed no violations or problems.”

He also acknowledged Red’s statement that ATF is exaggerating Red ’s conduct by “double counting” certain violations. The judge also looked at the balance of the ATF’s hardship compared to Red’s hardship and found that the relative hardships tip sharply in the store’s “favor.”

“A 2004 audit by the ATF claims to have uncovered several minor clerical errors. Out of nearly 10,000 firearms transferred between 1996 and 2004, the alleged error rate found was not even a full percentage point. There were no missing firearms, and no willful illegal acts,” notes a statement from Red’s web site.

“This is not just happening to us though and is becoming a common trend throughout the United States.”

DETAILS, DETAILS

Horsley, who said the feds are using a 2005 audit to go after the store, recalled the contradictory and capricious way ATF agents conducted themselves that year.

He explained that he was first told the store’s files should be kept “pretty much alphabetically” but in date-of-purchase chronological order within each letter (A, B C, and so on, according to the buyer’s last name).

Sometime later, ATF agents looked at the same files and did not cite the store with violations.

But during a third inspection, Horsley related that ATF agents told him, “We’re writing you up for not having them in perfect alphabetical order,” meaning that the chronology suddenly no longer matters.

According to Horsley, who worked directly with ATF personnel, the supervisors can overrule the inspectors and re-interpret policies in the process—the very policies used to determine what constitutes a violation.

So the law enforcement agency fiddles with the law, in essence rewriting it to suit its needs at a given time, said Horsley.

He added that when the ATF came in during 2005, the store was cited for not having posters and pamphlets that state handguns are dangerous to children and for not making sure gun buyers indicated their county of residence on government forms used for cataloging firearms purchases.

“We had a 99.6% success rate for the 2005 audit,” Horsley told AFP. He added that another detail raised by ATF agents was whether a box was checked on the forms indicating the type of gun that was purchased (handgun, long gun, or whatever).

One form did not have the box checked. “They searched through 10,000 forms and found one violation of that,” he said. Not having the right literature in the store and the unmarked box on a form prompted agents to designate Red’s as “a threat to public safety,” hence the continuing legal action against the store. Lodge, however, shot back that the store is not a threat to public safety.

A key thing in the law is the word “willful,” said Horsley. The ATF must prove applicable laws were willfully violated as opposed to the few inadvertent oversights and errors that occurred at Red’s.

LARGER CAMPAIGN?

Some say the ATF, while it seems to just be nitpicking over T’s not crossed and I’s not dotted, is actually engaging in a campaign to close gun stores across the country, especially since other approaches, such as cities and other entities suing gun manufacturers and distributors to pin the blame on them when guns are misused, have not worked.

Horsley cited Violence Policy Center (VPC) figures that showed an 80% decline in the number of new federally licensed firearms dealers from 1994-2005. And the ATF’s own figures, he said, show that between 2001 and 2006 revocations of federal firearms licenses, or FFLs, shot up to a rate six times above the norm.

A March 2006 VPC press release noted: “The number of gun dealers in America has dropped by 190,726 since 1994 according to a new study released . . . by the VPC.

The study found that the number of Type 1 FFLs plummeted 78% from 245,628 in 1994 to 54,902 in 2005.”

The Type 1 FFL is the basic federal license required to sell guns in America.

A competitor in Twin Falls, Blue Lakes Sporting Goods was forced out of business in the same manner; however ATF agent Richard Van Loan never allowed the store to appeal the ATF’s decision. It was not until the urging of Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) that Blue Lakes was allowed to have an appeal, but by then they were in the middle of their “going out of business sale,” Horsley noted.

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Anyone who is thinking about buying firearms through a commercial source needs to know about this 'trend' in Federal behaviors so that they can plan according.

ATS Member Tinhatman has started a new discussion thread that you should be aware of. It's been a while since I've had anything new to add to this thread, so I wanted to show you that somebody else had their eye on this problem. It hasn't gone away.

Question for you guys. Why is the loss of the 2nd amendment such a big deal, while all our other rights have been frittered away? While the loudly pro-gun politicians have gutted every other part of our constitution, where were you people?

"Well, we don't have the right to speak or think or believe, we're not safe from warrantless searches and seizure of property, and there are no longer any laws protecting us from judicial abuse, but hey! I still have my gun, and I'mma shoot any durn librul what wants to take my rights away!"



[edit on 16-2-2008 by TheWalkingFox]

Act-u-ally, many of the same people who advocate for 2nd amendment rights are also quite vocal about other Constitutional issues. In this Conspiracy Master Forum, I talk about many different legal issues that directly affect the average citizen.

I understand your frustration. It does at times feel like the second amendment crowd is louder than any other interest group. We need to understand that a loss of any one of our social rights will eventually mean the loss of them all.

As each month passes, it seems like there are fewer and fewer people willing to discuss or take action. It's like they are giving up. That may be, but I and many otehrs will keep on doing what we do best. We may not win, but we will not be silent.

Originally posted by Roper

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
What would you suggest that pro-gun people do about this deception?

Join the NRA! 35$/year is a small price to pay for your liberty.

Plus, write letters to your congress critter and to the news papers.

Freedom ain't free, you must work at it.

Roper

DO NOT JOIN THE NRA!!!!! They are stooges of the Government as they agreed to the provisions of the Veteran disarmament Bill..The new president of the NRA is a frikkin lawyer who bows at every whim of the Government.

If you want to join a organization the join Gun Owners of America as they FIGHT for the 2nd Amendment.. I have done my research on this believe me. A former NRA member Now a Gun owners of america member.

Is there any chance you can elaborate on that?

Gun control issues are not inteh public eye just now. We're trying to elet a new President. Even so, that doesn't mean we should stop talking about them.

the simple fact of the matter is that gun ownership is necessary to keep our State and Federal governments in check. If we ever lose our ability to fight back, we'll get what we deserve.

Having said that, its important to understand that we do our duty as good citizens when we live our lives in such a way that government tyranny is not possible. If they can;t dominate us, they won't. If they can, they will.

They serve us, or we WILL serve them.

An ATS Member has started a sizzling argument that you might want to be aware of. As i've already pointed out in this thread, the Feds can disarm you much easier if they can restrict your travel options. Please take note of this heated conversation and have your say.