Do you support the loss of american sovereignty?

Originally posted by Infoholic

Read the Constitution.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
source

And the Declaration of Independence.

They made it very clear that these rights, liberties, and freedoms we all share are given to us by God, and cannot be taken away from anyone other than Him.

I have read the constitution, and the stuff about God… well that’s just what people said back then. If they seriously believed in one specific God as you proclaim, this God that granted them our rights why does article I of the constitution read: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”. Now if the almighty came down and told the founding fathers what to write don’t you think he would have made them leave that one out? After all God is a jealous God.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
I have read the constitution, and the stuff about God… well that’s just what people said back then. If they seriously believed in one specific God as you proclaim, this God that granted them our rights why does article I of the constitution read: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”. Now if the almighty came down and told the founding fathers what to write don’t you think he would have made them leave that one out? After all God is a jealous God.

The 1st Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
source

The 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." because that was but one of the many limitation on our Federal Government. The Federal Government cannot tell you what religion you have to believe in. The Founding Fathers (not congress, nor senator, nor Federal Government) made those limitations to protect your right to believe in whichever God you choose... AND... that God (whichever one it is) gave you your rights and the Federal Government cannot pass a law that prevents you from practicing your said religion.

Your belief of your God being a jealous God is your right to believe, however, your God gave you the right to believe in Him, and no one can take that right away.

Originally posted by Infoholic
And you choose to believe that anyone at any time may take your rights away. That's up to you. The choice of freedom is yours.

They have been, remember the Patriot Act.

However, you have shown the utmost disrespect for those that founded this nation, and those that lost their lives to maintain this nation as a sovereign state.

I demand that you immediately back that up! After all I’m the one giving credit where credit is due, you lessen their act by giving credit to a mythological being.

Re-read the Preamble and the Declaration of Independence, and then stop for one second and think..... long and hard....
Who signed it?

Not God.

Does that bother you?

Why would that bother me?

If Queen Elizabeth is nothing more than a figurehead, why is she used

The British monarchy is still in existence due to A) Tradition. B) Tourist dollars C) they need to put someone’s face on the money.

? I think there's a lot more to it than you understand, young grasshopper.

I have no problem continuing this debate but please be respectful.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
They have been, remember the Patriot Act.

And you're ok with losing your freedoms? I, for one, do not approve of it.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
I demand that you immediately back that up! After all I’m the one giving credit where credit is due, you lessen their act by giving credit to a mythological being.

Where have you given credit? You've done nothing but question it.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
Not God.

Great observation. Who signed it?

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
Why would that bother me?

Just kinda "assumed" it bother you by your response.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
The British monarchy is still in existence due to A) Tradition. B) Tourist dollars C) they need to put someone’s face on the money.

The British monarchy by your definition is a falsification. George Washington isn't the President of the U.S., but he's still on the dollar. Same with Franklin, and Lincoln, and Jackson....

Your reasoning sounds very questionable to say the least.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
I have no problem continuing this debate but please be respectful.

Respect is earned, not given.

Originally posted by Infoholic
And you're ok with losing your freedoms? I, for one, do not approve of it.

I abhor the Patriot Act. Approval or disapproval not with standing, the deed is done. The government giveth, the government taketh away.

Where have you given credit? You've done nothing but question it.

You gave credit to God, I gave credit to the founding fathers, and congress that passed it and the states that ratified it. In what way does that question it?

The British monarchy by your definition is a falsification. George Washington isn't the President of the U.S., but he's still on the dollar. Same with Franklin, and Lincoln, and Jackson....

Your reasoning sounds very questionable to say the least.

OK on that one I was being fuscous. The British monarchy is still in place for tradishinal purposes only. The crown hold no power.

Respect is earned, not given.

Being respectful is free.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
I have read the constitution, and the stuff about God… well that’s just what people said back then. If they seriously believed in one specific God as you proclaim, this God that granted them our rights why does article I of the constitution read: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”. Now if the almighty came down and told the founding fathers what to write don’t you think he would have made them leave that one out? After all God is a jealous God.

It is well know that the reference to "God" is a reference to a higher being. We have "rights" given to us from the moment we are born. So, i t doesn't matter what God you believe in... Being born gives you these rights. Worship whatever damn God you want. You have these rights as an American.

Originally posted by LostSailor
It is well know that the reference to "God" is a reference to a higher being. We have "rights" given to us from the moment we are born. So, i t doesn't matter what God you believe in... Being born gives you these rights. Worship whatever damn God you want. You have these rights as an American.

You have taken what I said out of context of the conversation, Infoholics position is that the distinction of the American constitution is that it derives from God, well mine is that it was created by man. Further more if you look into other constitutions you will find many that reference God.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk

Originally posted by LostSailor
It is well know that the reference to "God" is a reference to a higher being. We have "rights" given to us from the moment we are born. So, i t doesn't matter what God you believe in... Being born gives you these rights. Worship whatever damn God you want. You have these rights as an American.

You have taken what I said out of context of the conversation, Infoholics position is that the distinction of the American constitution is that it derives from God, well mine is that it was created by man. Further more if you look into other constitutions you will find many that reference God.

Then you are incorrect. It does not derive from man. The reference to "God" means a higher authority, power, force, or principle.

Your RIGHTS do NOT come from men, a written document, a government, or anything else. They are NATURAL RIGHTS that exist even in the complete absence of government, or under the darkness of tyranny.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
You have taken what I said out of context of the conversation, Infoholics position is that the distinction of the American constitution is that it derives from God, well mine is that it was created by man. Further more if you look into other constitutions you will find many that reference God.

No, I didn't. I have read every post in this thread. Our "rights," given to us in the "Bill of Rights," were granted to us by "God" (a higher being) and are unalienable. I agree the Patriot Act is unconstitutional and has taken away our God given rights.

Guess that makes Bush the "devil" heh?

You think that since Bush passed the Patriot Act and took away my "rights." He must be more powerful than God himself. Right?

This act was slipped by under the guise of safety. Look throughout history, this how almost every government has taken freedom from people. I am a realist, and believe that soon people will wake up and realize this. They already are in my opinion. That is why I will be casting my vote in 2008 for a man that still believes in the Constitution. He is also a man that would reduce the Federal government and restore the Republic our founding fathers had in mind for this country.

*edit*

One more thing. Reading the Constitution and understanding it are two different things.

[edit on 5-4-2007 by LostSailor]

Originally posted by Johnmike
Then you are incorrect. It does not derive from man. The reference to "God" means a higher authority, power, force, or principle.

Facts not in evidence: until it can be proven that there is indeed a higher authority”, I will continue to attribute our right to those whom have enshrined them in the constitution.

Your RIGHTS do NOT come from men, a written document, a government, or anything else.

No they do not come from the document, they are spelled out by the document.

They are NATURAL RIGHTS that exist even in the complete absence of government,

In the absence of government you have the right to do whatever you want, upto and including rape and murder, for there would be no laws.

or under the darkness of tyranny.

In a despotism you have few if any rights, try telling an absolute ruler that he’s doing a horrible job. See how your freedom of speech works out for you.

A higher authority, a higher principle, it's not difficult to understand. You aren't given rights by anyone, they always exist. Whether or not the government recognizes them is what's important.

Either way, it remains that you aren't granted rights by the government, but that it is granted power by you. That's why America is so special.

The people are the sovereigns.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
I abhor the Patriot Act. Approval or disapproval not with standing, the deed is done. The government giveth, the government taketh away.

I, too, loathe the Patriot Act. Yes, the deed is done, but it still isn't forgotten of the rights stricken by the Government... of which do not have the right to do so. The Government did not grant the rights to the people. I'm certain you are sitting there shaking your head, saying "Yes the Government did"... but you are wrong. I implore you to share any legally credible evidence to prove me wrong. And I'm not asking for "just your opinion".

Here... I'll begin.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.....
source

Taken directly from the Declaration of Independence, our Founding Fathers (not Congress, not Federal Government, not Presidents) established the beginning of this nation with the people of which have unalienable rights granted to them by their creator... God. Now whether that's my God, or your God, or Billy Bob down the street's God... God still granted the American people with rights that no one can take away. Period.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
You gave credit to God, I gave credit to the founding fathers, and congress that passed it and the states that ratified it. In what way does that question it?

The Founding Fathers gave the credit to God. You have argued that congress, or the federal government are the responsible party that have granted said rights to the people.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
Respect is earned, not given.

Being respectful is free.
Giving respect is not free. I am under no one's authority to give respect. If you want it, earn it.

[edit on 4/5/2007 by Infoholic]

Originally posted by Infoholic
The Government did not grant the rights to the people. I'm certain you are sitting there shaking your head, saying "Yes the Government did"... but you are wrong. I implore you to share any legally credible evidence to prove me wrong. And I'm not asking for "just your opinion".

Taken directly from the Declaration of Independence, our Founding Fathers (not Congress, not Federal Government, not Presidents) established the beginning of this nation with the people of which have unalienable rights granted to them by their creator... God. Now whether that's my God, or your God, or Billy Bob down the street's God... God still granted the American people with rights that no one can take away. Period.

You have framed this challenge in a rather disingenuous manner. Essentially you have asked me to disprove God.
Since there is no proof that does or does not God exists, I feel that we have come to an impasse.

The Founding Fathers gave the credit to God. You have argued that congress, or the federal government are the responsible party that have granted said rights to the people.

There is no evidence that God was present at the time of sighing. But there is evidence,
of debate and compromise amongst corporeal beings leading up to the declaration of independence and the constitution.

Let me dumb this down for you. Obviously, it is needed. You are born with "rights." Rights not granted to you by people. Just being born assures you these rights. Bush has secretively taken these rights away. We will get them back. Make sense?

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
You have framed this challenge in a rather disingenuous manner. Essentially you have asked me to disprove God.
Since there is no proof that does or does not God exists, I feel that we have come to an impasse.

I have asked you to prove who gave you your rights. Are you not able to accomplish that with legally credible evidence?

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
There is no evidence that God was present at the time of sighing. But there is evidence, of debate and compromise amongst corporeal beings leading up to the declaration of independence and the constitution.

Are you agnostic by chance?

Why would anyone think the govt grants any rights?We have a govt of the people,by the people,and for the people no matter what the current administration thinks.
What they have forgotten is the govt serves the poeple not the other way around.

Originally posted by Infoholic
I have asked you to prove who gave you your rights. Are you not able to accomplish that with legally credible evidence?

By the fine forefathers of this nation, whom wanted, if you’ll excuse the expression to give a shout out to what the majority of the framers believed was their creator. At no time did any deity take part in the framing.

Drafting and ratification requirements
Main article: History of the United States Constitution
On September 1786, commissioners from five states met in the Annapolis Convention to discuss adjustments to the Articles of Confederation that would improve commerce. They invited state representatives to convene in Philadelphia to discuss improvements to the federal government. After debate, the Confederation Congress endorsed the plan to revise the Articles of Confederation on February 21, 1787. Twelve states, Rhode Island being the only exception, accepted this invitation and sent delegates to convene in May 1787. The resolution calling the Convention specified its purpose was to propose amendments to the Articles, but the Convention decided to propose a rewritten Constitution. The Philadelphia Convention voted to keep deliberations secret and decided to draft a new fundamental government design which eventually stipulated that only 9 of the 13 states would have to ratify for the new government to go into effect (for the participating states).
en.wikipedia.org...

Are you agnostic by chance?

Nope atheist.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
By the fine forefathers of this nation, whom wanted, if you’ll excuse the expression to give a shout out to what the majority of the framers believed was their creator. At no time did any deity take part in the framing.

You... do know... That our founding fathers weren't Christian right? They were Masons.

Originally posted by LostSailor
You are born with "rights." Rights not granted to you by people. Just being born assures you these rights. Bush has secretively taken these rights away. We will get them back. Make sense?

I was born with the “right” to article V of the constitution, I no longer have that “right”, if a “right” is something that can’t be taken away by people how could I have lost it to people?

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
I was born with the “right” to article V of the constitution, I no longer have that “right”, if a “right” is something that can’t be taken away by people how could I have lost it to people?

You are confusing the Bill of Rights with the rest of the Constitution. The Bill of Rights deals with the rights of the people. Yes, Article 5 of the constitution allows government to add new amendments. A very difficult thing to do though.